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rlg94086
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Welcome home! As a convert, I can relate to the joy you must feel. Deo gratias!
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Cinette
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CMatt25
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Yes. My broader point was while it’s great for faithful Catholics to encourage the lapsed to not stay away from the sacraments, you first must understand and address the causes which may have brought about a non belief in the sacraments you are encouraging them to not stay away from. Hopefully my use of “you” meets most everyone’s approval.Ya think?
Of course, non-belief has no bearing on the Truth. As Catholics, we desire all to know Jesus Christ in a very intimate way that is impossible in the Protestant churches. We pray that they will come home and be in full communion.
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St_Francis
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The Church teaches, calls upon, and helps members to do good.
Some people go against the teachings of the Church to do good.
Why should the Church, why should Christ Whose Body the Church is, not be credited when people do good things because of the Church?
But why should the Church be blamed when people go against the teachings of the Church and do bad things?
We are all sinners, and we all go against the teachings of the Church by sinning. That cannot be blamed on the Church. We sin because we want what *we *want more than what the Church teaches us. We sin because we rely on ourselves rather than on God’s grace. None of this can be blamed on the Church.
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wynnejj
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We should always advise returning to the sacraments, but with precautions…
And we should explain that much that we see wrong in the Catholic Church today, especially the way we are being put to shame in the public eye, has much to do with disregarding these precautions and being disciplined by Our Lord.
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wynnejj
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Tampa_Dave
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Thank you for your kind message. Converts appreciate their new Catholic faith more than many cradle Catholics. I am very happy to return to the fold.
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wynnejj
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We are all imperfect, so we fail to realize that the perfect reflection and cooperation with God graces and the sharing of the goods he gives us is a requirement and a duty, not extra credit. No one is “good”, but we can strive for perfect reflection of God’s will which is primarily getting to the point where we care about God’s will more than our own (no matter what the cost), and that we truly care about others as much as ourself (someone else’s needs effects us as if it were our own need). We should seek perfection as a duty, not as a credit.
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CMatt25
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The archbishop I assume believes the Church and His Body are found in the Catholic Church so it is a wonderment to me why he would encourage them to “leave”.
CCC:
Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ… Baptism incorporates us into the Church.
CCC 1272 and 1273 go on to say an indelible spiritual mark is placed upon a person as they are “incorporated into the Church by Baptism” and that “no sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation”.
CCC seems to fit what a Catholic bishop once told me. I have his letter in front of me. It says who can rightfully be called a Catholic includes any person who received the Sacrament of Baptism as at that point they became a member of the Catholic Church. That there is a further distinction in regard to practicing or non practicing. Yet he said of course being practicing does not exclude the possibilty of sin in one’s life. And that a Baptized Catholic would still be considered a Catholic, albeit perhaps a non practicing one.
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ComputerGeek25
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If they are non-practising in some way, they are catholic in name only
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CMatt25
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Well sure perhaps so but that doesn’t mean under Church teaching that the Church doesn’t identify them as Catholic. So what I would find interesting is if a practicing Catholic says a Baptized, some of them even confirmed, non practicing Catholic is not *really *Catholic, how that makes the practicing one fully in communion themselves with Church teaching if Church teaching says the nons are still Catholics.
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wynnejj
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Yes, but sacraments are not empty rituals. If one is treating a sacrament as if it is an empty ritual, then one needs to recuse themselves from the sacraments, and our moral leaders should explain that…
One gets this sense from 1 Corinthian 11:27-32 …
One gets this sense from 1 Corinthian 11:27-32 …
This whole passage is about proper disposition… not your performance record.
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St_Francis
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There was a thread on this in the Catholic News forum. Overall, I think the Cardinal is saying fish or cut bait.
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CMatt25
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I could make a non Catholic case for open communion but that’s not the debate here. What though does someone recusing themselves from the Eucharist due to improper disposition have to do with urging them to leave the Church entirely? I thought Catholics encouraged Mass attendance even for those not in a Catholic state of grace to receive?
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wynnejj
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Some people refuse to recuse themselves ever from the sacraments, even though they do not believe in the Real Presence or do not ever intend to correct their ways on certain matters that are grievous offenses against God. They insist on receiving the sacraments as a right. Is it your contention that such persons should not be encouraged to leave the Church, rather than receiving the sacraments sacrilegiously on a regular basis?
That seems to be the essence of what the Archbishop is saying. In this case, he cites refusal to attend Sunday Mass regularly, even though it is a grievous offense (mortal sin), yet they will show up at celebratory events and fully participate in the sacraments as if it is their right.
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St_Francis
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I think we are discussing apples, oranges, and pears…
The Cardinal was referring to people who do not practice the Faith, but who show up after years of not attending Mass and expecting weddings, baptisms for their children, and what-have-you.
My own relative was told that, no, she could not be married in the Catholic church she wanted to be married in for sentimental reasons because she could not produce a letter from the parish she normally attended–because she never went to Mass! After years of not attending Mass, paying no attention to God, all of a sudden she wants to get married in a specific church because that’s where she went, when she went, when she was less than 10 years old.
So, first, to me the Cardinal is not addressing people who have an interest in actually being Catholic (more below); the Cardinal is addressing people who have absolutely *no desire *to *live *the Faith, to know, love, and serve God in this world. They just show up from time to time, profane the Eucharist by receiving unworthily, and then expect the Church to provide them with a beautiful, sentimental location for their weddings.
The survey done in the original post was self-selecting: the people who answered it were people who still have some sort of investment in the Church.
Maybe they just wanted to vent: Oh, the priest criticized people showing up in their beach attire–who does he think he is??? so when the survey came, they wanted to vent their anger.
But then there were people who were honestly confused: they feel drawn to the Church, but they have some issues, not anger ones, but others: The priest said we couldn’t show up in beach attire… I didn’t get that, why not? Well, I stopped going because he seemed to be saying that I shouldn’t show up dressed the way I feel good dressing.
And there are people who do not understand Church teaching. Church teaching is in xome areas so opposite to the way the world thinks, and people are exposed so much more to the way the world thinks and so little to the way the Church thinks, that they simply do not understand, and the really sad thing is that they do not know what to do when they do not understand. So their spouse pressures them to use abc, they know it’s wrong but they don’t understand why, they are embarrassed to confess the sin, so little by little, they withdraw from the Church; they think they have committed this sin so God will not love them.
And so on. To me, the people that the Cardinal was addressing were not those who would have responded to the survey, he was talking to a different kind of lapsed Catholic altogether. And I don’t blame him. If a person chooses God, that is good. If a person rejects God, why should he get a wedding in a Catholic church, etc?
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In_Training
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*Their reasons ranged from the personal (“the pastor who crowned himself king and looks down on all”) to the political (“eliminate the extreme conservative haranguing”) to the doctrinal (“don’t spend so much time on issues like homosexuality and birth control”).
In addition, they said, they didn’t like the church’s handling of the clergy sex abuse scandal and were upset that divorced and remarried Catholics are unwelcome at Mass.*
I agree. Additionally, when people say personal things happened to them that made them leave, I don’t think others really understand all the things that could mean. I had a few really terrible teachers in Catholic school pre-k through 11th. I mean, when you’re a kid nobody really wants to listen to their teachers, but it was beyond that for me…a lot of what 5 teachers in particular did to me (and select few other kids in my classes) would be considered verbal and emotional abuse under the law, but at the time we didn’t know to report it. Instead of trying to change it, I changed.
I always said I’d never go back to Christianity, and especially not to Catholicism because Catholics made me feel hatred and turned me into a monster. But then I realized my mistake…I’d let one group of 30 or so people ruin my faith and compromise who I was. I was constantly angry with God (like it was His fault)… I did a lot of things to try to hurt Him, got destructive, constantly made fun of Catholics and dared them to do anything about it, and I guess what you would call “blasphemed” about a thousand more times than what was forgivable. I took my whole relationship with God and intentionally ripped it into shreds, and it felt good, and then I realized, wow, it’s not them doing this to me, this is me acting on my own impulses…where did they come from?
I knew it wasn’t right to be doing all that stuff but it made me feel good, I think because a lot of it was out of revenge. I got away from it for a while, felt empty for years like there was something I started and hadn’t finished, or something I’d been keeping secret and never dealt with… I was afraid to admit to anyone how short-sighted I’d been, I didn’t want to give them the wrong impression… I couldn’t go back to church right away so I went back to my priest and he suggested I help with the youth ministry class and stay out of mass for a while, which is what I’ve been doing the last few months, but the first few weeks I was back my priest had to tell me to take a breath and stop shaking. It had been so liberating and exciting to not only walk away from God but to actually do things to hurt Him, I looked back on my path of complete destruction and just felt dead inside, there was nothing I could do to take it back. I realized the Catholics in my life didn’t do this. I’d ruined everything, and it was all my fault.
It’s been just over a year since I’ve been back. It took a lot of work to let go of everything and start over. I want God to be able to trust me again and have the same faith in me that I have in Him.I know people roll their eyes when they think of people who have left the church, thinking it’s for some political or self-righteous reason, but I think most people have a legitimate reason at some time or another. I know I’ll always get a lot of judgment for what I did, but maybe it was meant to happen to me, maybe I had to leave for a few years and go through the worst so I could make a decision about where I needed to be.
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wynnejj
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You may be in a unique position to help someone who’s experienced what you have experienced. I sometimes find myself saying “Oh that’s nonsense” simply because it is out of the realm of my experiences. Your background can be very helpful to someone to whom someone like myself might have trouble relating. There may be a divine plan in the madness. Welcome home.
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CMatt25
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If that’s what the archbishop is saying, my contention is it might be better if instead of urging them to leave the Church, he could urge them to at least attend Mass more frequently for example. But not ever urging them to completely leave. I know the Eucharist is the focus in the Catholic Mass. But aren’t there any other benefits for people attending Mass? You (generic “you” not anyone specifically) can urge them to leave for a purer Church and “you” might get your wish. But then wouldn’t “you” share some guilt by pushing people even further away than they might have been?
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CMatt25
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Yes I’m well aware of various conditions which are placed on Baptisms and so forth. I know for a fact for instance the territorial parish for those Catholics in my neighborhood has a policy that parents must not only be registered members for 6 mos but also must be using the parish envelope system to prove they are active. I know of one man registered who attended Mass regularly there, but made his offertory anonymously in cash and was refused Baptism for his daughter. He fortunately found a priest 5 miles away who baptized the young child. I also know of a couple who like your relative had the Sacrament of Matrimony refused them and they ended up and had a ceremony performed by a Protestant.
Here’s the thing though. “You” (again not anyone specifically) I think takes a risk of perhaps doing irreparable harm when they want to push people completely out the door. And if they take the advice and should forever leave as a result, one never will know otherwise if perhaps these folks would have not only stayed but more fully embraced the faith at some point. If they’re further driven away though from the Church and they stay away for good as a result, it could be too late.
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