Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[wynnejj]

If we are going to have Protestants writing our masses and composing our music, maybe we could borrow other ideas from them too. I’ve noticed that most of them around here tend to have a contemporary service and a traditional service and sometimes, if they are big enough to have three services, a blended service as well. Considering that the average Catholic parish around here has 5-8 services on the weekend, couldn’t we have a couple of those be traditional? Why does it have to be 100% contemporary?

My parish has implemented something like this idea as one of their initiatives to increase Mass attendance. There’s an early 7:30 AM no nonsense, no music Mass. There’s a 9AM contemporary music Mass. There’s a 10:30 choir Mass. And finally a 12PM Mass led by cantor with traditional church songs, selected for their classic appeal and ease to sing-along. They have also made it known that it is important to reach out to newcomers in a welcoming way. Good initiatives, IMO.

 

[CMatt25]

My parish has implemented something like this idea as one of their initiatives to increase Mass attendance. There’s an early 7:30 AM no nonsense, no music Mass. There’s a 9AM contemporary music Mass. There’s a 10:30 choir Mass. And finally a 12PM Mass led by cantor with traditional church songs, selected for their classic appeal and ease to sing-along. They have also made it known that it is important to reach out to newcomers in a welcoming way. Good initiatives, IMO.

Of course. Why wouldn’t Catholics want to increase Mass attendance? Might even bring back to greater attendance and fuller communion some of the lapsed.

 

[BenedictFTW]

Lapsed Catholics who leave because of any of the reasons given are at least being honest. Many remain within the Church to complain and harangue over such issues instead of leaving the rest of us in peace. God bless them. Perhaps some day it will dawn on them what a rich religion is the Catholic religion. Peace of Christ to all.

 

[Tampa_Dave]

Tigg,

Believe it or not, my “moment” occurred when the Catholic Church was hit with the HHS mandate. The mandate stirred my very soul: Catholicism was under siege by a secular government threatening the viability of Church schools, charities and hospitals. The depth of my concern amazed me - I came to realize the hidden but deep love I had for the Church. It prompted my return to Holy Mass and the Sacraments. I immersed myself in Catholic prayers, literature and films, anything to surround myself with the Holiness of the Church. I cannot begin to tell you how happy I am following this revelation. My wife has always been a devout Catholic, so she is thrilled beyond belief. I am fully resolved to serve Christ the rest of my life.

Thank you for your kind words, Tigg. The journey begins anew!

 

[wynnejj]

Tigg,

Believe it or not, my “moment” occurred when the Catholic Church was hit with the HHS mandate. The mandate stirred my very soul: Catholicism was under siege by a secular government threatening the viability of Church schools, charities and hospitals. The depth of my concern amazed me - I came to realize the hidden but deep love I had for the Church. It prompted my return to Holy Mass and the Sacraments. I immersed myself in Catholic prayers, literature and films, anything to surround myself with the Holiness of the Church. I cannot begin to tell you how happy I am following this revelation. My wife has always been a devout Catholic, so she is thrilled beyond belief. I am fully resolved to serve Christ the rest of my life.

Thank you for your kind words, Tigg. The journey begins anew!

In the western world, our very framework is being shaken in every corner. In America, it is driving a renewal back to the Constitution, and in the Catholic Church, it is driving a renewal back to the sacred and oral tradition of the Church as interpreted by the Pope and guided by the Holy Spirit. The basic difference being that the Constitution can be amended if found in error but must enforce adherence else the whole structure crumbles… whereas, the doctrines of the Catholic Church need no tweaking as they perfectly reflect the will of God and do not require amendment, and all internal and external struggles will never topple the Church for all time. The membership may wax and wane, faith may wax and wane, but the Body of Christ will always be there.

I suspect that the Church’s response to the HHS Mandate may have renewed and inspired your faith that what we see around us is truly governed by a first principle that is God. When one sees the Church stand for that 1st principle, it renews the inner being with a sense of trust in God, a reliance on His Word, and the stuff of religion.

Mankind is testing the Lord God constantly in this day in age, mostly due to our puffed up view of ourselves in this technologically advanced age - a technology that is given to us. We suffer from a superiority complex … it reminds me of a joke.

Hannibal and his army ants were riding an Elephant across the Pyrenees(?) to their next adventure and conquest. The Elephant sneezes and all the army ants fall off, except Hannibal. The army ants are all looking up watching Hannibal at the reins, and yell “Choke Him”.

That is the relationship of those looking to change the Church rather than relying on the Church to convey the membership to God.

 

[In_Training]

Mankind is testing the Lord God constantly in this day in age, mostly due to our puffed up view of ourselves in this technologically advanced age - a technology that is given to us. We suffer from a superiority complex …

Good points… I also think it’s possible to leave due to an inferiority complex. I think my previous post on this thread conveys that pretty well. People say some are given a higher calling, I’ve always felt like I had that (didn’t ask for it)… Higher expectations of me from God + my less-than-average ability to be a great Christian + pressure & criticism from others = failure, and I left. It took me a long time to realize God never lost faith in me at all.

 

[wynnejj]

Good points… I also think it’s possible to leave due to an inferiority complex. I think my previous post on this thread conveys that pretty well. People say some are given a higher calling, I’ve always felt like I had that (didn’t ask for it)… Higher expectations of me from God + my less-than-average ability to be a great Christian + pressure & criticism from others = failure, and I left. It took me a long time to realize God never lost faith in me at all.

God always gives a person a bit more than they can chew. That way the person turns to God for the wherewithal to perform their calling, and is never confused that when they achieve that purpose that it was impossible without God. All things are impossible without God - even an existence as inanimate matter would be impossible without God. The way to think about it is: Without God we don’t matter, but with God we matter very much.

The problem with a superiority complex is that lapsed Catholics remain inside the Church. That is not all bad, because the Church is the best place to hear God’s Word in its truest form, if you can filter out all the extraneous chatter of human emotion.

If you go to that joke about Hannibal on the Elephant, there is a perception that the “reins” are something that we can use to steer when all they are is something to hang onto for dear eternal life. We go where the Holy Spirit guides the Elephant / Church, and and all army ants / Christians should know that Hannibal / Pope is the one to watch on how to hang on best to where the Holy Spirit is guiding the Elephant / Church.

 

[Tigg]

Tigg,

Believe it or not, my “moment” occurred when the Catholic Church was hit with the HHS mandate. The mandate stirred my very soul: Catholicism was under siege by a secular government threatening the viability of Church schools, charities and hospitals. The depth of my concern amazed me - I came to realize the hidden but deep love I had for the Church. It prompted my return to Holy Mass and the Sacraments. I immersed myself in Catholic prayers, literature and films, anything to surround myself with the Holiness of the Church. I cannot begin to tell you how happy I am following this revelation. My wife has always been a devout Catholic, so she is thrilled beyond belief. I am fully resolved to serve Christ the rest of my life.

Thank you for your kind words, Tigg. The journey begins anew!

Another silver lining and unexpected blessings. God’s enemies cannot be too happy with this turn of events, but HE, will, after all, use all things to HIS own purposes. Maybe more lapsed Catholics will return as a result of the renewed catechesis in life issues because of this government overreach. Reports are now coming forth that pastors all over the country are finally speaking out for Theology of the Body, and Humanae Vitae - Catholics unwilling to open their hearts and accept the grace and truth of Christ, I suspect, will no longer be merely “lapsed,” but will finally leave in the face of the new-found unity of faith and the solidarity of our bishops. I love your story! Please spread it around!

 

[wynnejj]

Maybe more lapsed Catholics will return as a result of the renewed catechesis in life issues because of this government overreach.

Yes, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. There may have been a reluctance to get wholeheartedly into the fray of this human rights issue, simply because the Church is not about enforcing compliance with God’s Will, but rather guiding people to God. However, if we do not protect human life in its earliest stages, how can we justify law enforcement against murder at any stage of human life. As I’ve stated before elsewhere, I find it rather interesting that the words of the Nicene Creed where we bow our head in the Mass liturgy states that Jesus became incarnate and man, rather than the misinterpretation that stated Jesus was born and became man. I think because the Nicene Creed is the most ecumenical of creeds accepted by most mainstream Christian denominations, this passage should be stressed to show that Jesus first became our flesh & blood brother when he first became flesh & blood - at the point of incarnation which is the point of conception.

 

[Tigg]

I have no idea where you are but here I haven’t found a contemporary Catholic Mass beyond maybe a Lifeteen and haven’t attended one of those. Episcopal, yes I can find very traditional, contemporary Christian band, at one Episcopal parish the bass player played for Stevie Wonder for a decade I am told. The same Episcopal church has a guitar Mass. They have 4 services. Another Episcopal has 2 traditionals and a jazz. Disciples of Christ has a blended. United Church of Christ has 1 traditional and 1 contenmporary. UMC has both. Something for everyone’s musical spiritual needs.

The Catholic church holds music in very high esteem despite the many abuses. "The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as a combination of sacred music and words, it forms a necessary or integral part of solemn liturgy."

That being the case, of course, the Church is not to combine the Sacred with the profane (the worldly.)

But a Gregorian chant I never sing.

"The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman Liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services". - Second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium §116 (1963)

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

The Catholic church holds music in very high esteem despite the many abuses. "The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as a combination of sacred music and words, it forms a necessary or integral part of solemn liturgy."

That being the case, of course, the Church is not to combine the Sacred with the profane (the worldly.)

"The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman Liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services". - Second Vatican Council, Sacrosanctum Concilium §116 (1963)

So which is worse…not singing along with Gregorian chant…or not going to Mass or leaving Mass early because you disagree with the music?

 

[Nec5]

Put me on the list for a lobotomy. I’ve skipped mass more than once because the only church I could get to has the sappy 70’s folk music in it like most parishes do these days. I admit that I refer to it as suffering through mass at most parishes.

The sappy effeminate music we usually have to deal with is stomach wrenching. Ever see men singing along? Of course not. At least not many. Maybe some girlie-men. At the parish with Gregorian Chant most of the men sing along.

Well, if that campy music was offset by an old fashioned fire and brimstone homily, then there would be a balance. Somehow, I doubt that’s the case.

 

[wynnejj]

Well, if that campy music was offset by an old fashioned fire and brimstone homily, then there would be a balance. Somehow, I doubt that’s the case.

Some traditional St John Vianney sermons might offset some of that “sappy effeminate music” we keep hearing quite nicely, eh?

 

[wynnejj]

What I can’t understand is why do you suppose that the respondents are 2/3rds female aged on average 53? Men and teenagers generally don’t respond? Older woman are the only ones with an axe to grind? Or, is it a matter of the old Shakespearian addage “Me thinks they protesteth too much!”, which lends itself to the idea that “there’s the reason they give, and then there is the real reason.”. This stuff about priests being too arrogant / aloof & rules oriented with too many conservative ideas … this is just “If you could change the rules, then we wouldn’t be disobedient.”. Personally, there is little from the respondents that I find believable.

What I would like to know is why so many of my nephews & nieces stop attending church shortly after high school? Why their religious education has so little traction in the real world? Why so many when they start seriously dating end up in a relationship where they cohabit instead of waiting for marriage?

Truth be known … the real story is about peer pressure from partners pushing women to use contraception. Bottom line… that is the fire behind all this smoke rationalizing why they are lapsed Catholics. That is why 66% of respondents are average age 53 and women. It is women trying to justify contraception because they believe in it or their partner is pressuring them.

 

[mellowcalico]

What I can’t understand is why do you suppose that the respondents are 2/3rds female aged on average 53? Men and teenagers generally don’t respond?

I am not disagreeing with you, but I wanted to point out that women do often respond to polls more so than men. I learned that when I did telephone polls and questionnaires when I was in college. They told us to ask for the “man of the house” when applicable because we always had a shortage of male respondents.

There is some information about it here: ellisonresearch.com/Articles/Article17.htm

Response bias is a major part of the problem. This means that one type of person is more likely to respond than another type of person. Older people and women, for instance, are consistently more likely to respond to surveys (both mail and phone) than are younger people and men.

 

[Tigg]

So which is worse…not singing along with Gregorian chant…or not going to Mass or leaving Mass early because you disagree with the music?

It’s not supposed to be all about us! It’s about what the Church determines gives proper and due praise to the Sacred Action taking place.

 

[wynnejj]

There is some information about it here: ellisonresearch.com/Articles/Article17.htm

Thanks for the info. It makes some sense and certainly maybe what is going on here. My gut says no, but it has been known to be dead wrong on occasion.

 

[St_Francis]

What I can’t understand is why do you suppose that the respondents are 2/3rds female aged on average 53? Men and teenagers generally don’t respond? Older woman are the only ones with an axe to grind? Or, is it a matter of the old Shakespearian addage “Me thinks they protesteth too much!”, which lends itself to the idea that “there’s the reason they give, and then there is the real reason.”. This stuff about priests being too arrogant / aloof & rules oriented with too many conservative ideas … this is just “If you could change the rules, then we wouldn’t be disobedient.”. Personally, there is little from the respondents that I find believable.

Yes, soooo rules oriented, bunch of celibate men telling us what we can and cannot do… blah, blah, blah (I just leave when I start hearing that old baloney.)

As a 53-year-old woman who would have been happy if God had sent along some more children, I have heard this and heard this and heard this. That is why I don’t have a lot of patience with the hand-holding of lapsed Catholics. I know, and am related to, a lot of lapsed Catholics, and as Bishop Fulton Sheen pointed out, there was always a member of the opposite sex involved

Sure, when they *repent *and want to return, I would sing with the angels, but when what they really want is to get the benefits and not deal with the “rules,” then faggidaboutit.

What I would like to know is why so many of my nephews & nieces stop attending church shortly after high school? Why their religious education has so little traction in the real world? Why so many when they start seriously dating end up in a relationship where they cohabit instead of waiting for marriage?

Ahhh, the real world is so much closer that it blinds us…

 

[wynnejj]

Lapsed Catholics: Where did everybody go?
by Bishop David M. O’Connell, C.M.
trentonmonitor.com/main.asp?SectionID=6&SubSectionID=119&ArticleID=3310

One thing seemed clear to me: the Church in the Diocese of Trenton needs to do a better job at presenting Catholic Church teaching to our people even when there is disagreement. Similarly, attitudes toward the celebration of the Eucharist need to be examined and addressed.
…
The challenge for us in the Catholic Church is never to close the door, or worse, to slam it shut on our Catholic people, whatever their status. At the same time, we must balance openness to peoples’ daily lives and their struggles in faith with the demands of the Gospel and the claims that truth makes on all of us. Truth isn’t truth because we believe it; truth is truth whether we believe it or not.

Believe It or Not… Truth is Truth! Amen.

 

[Tigg]

From the link above (thanks)

I was not really surprised by the results. Some of the responses focused upon Church teachings and law and the response of some Catholics to their understanding of both. The indissolubility of marriage and the inability of divorced and remarried Catholics to receive the Eucharist; birth control; homosexuality and the experience of homosexuals not feeling welcome in the Church; the crisis in the Church of sexual abuse of minors by clergy and the inability of the hierarchy to respond to or handle such abuse in a transparent way; the issue of the ordination of women to the priesthood were among the most common broader Church-related themes of concern voiced by many respondents.

In other words, it’s the same ole, same ole, and those who champion dissent, seem to have forgotten that obedience to Church doctrine is absolutely necessary for salvation. They know better, via their ill-informed conscience and propensity toward selfishness, “intellectual” pride and vice, than the 2,000 years of unchanged truth revealed by God Himself. It is rebellion, plain and simple, led by the Master of Rebellion when he was thrown from the heavenly kingdom all those centuries ago.