Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[mommamia]

One thing I heard in this thread I think needs to be discussed.

This idea I’ve heard, that I’m going to try to paraphrase here : “we have the truth and if you don’t see it because the actions of those who represent our Church are horrible, it’s totally your problem and you ought to just know we have the truth”

Maybe instead we really need to address some of these concerns. I love my Church, but some days its very hard to keep the faith when I see the leadership acting in a way that doesn’t seem to be in accordance with the teachings of the Church. Its hard to explain to people why our bishop needed a new half million dollar house, instead of living in the residence our bishops have lived in for a long time. Especially when I am paying a fortune for my kids to go to PSR, or sing in the choir, or join the youth group.

Its hard when faced with scandal and sexual improprieties to explain that the Church doesn’t bear “bad fruit”.

Its especially hard when getting an appointment with your pastor is near impossible.

I’m not saying that these mean the Church isn’t true, but that just blowing these concerns off isn’t exactly the best way to reach out to our separated family.

 

[nickybr38]

One thing I heard in this thread I think needs to be discussed.

This idea I’ve heard, that I’m going to try to paraphrase here : “we have the truth and if you don’t see it because the actions of those who represent our Church are horrible, it’s totally your problem and you ought to just know we have the truth”

Maybe instead we really need to address some of these concerns. I love my Church, but some days its very hard to keep the faith when I see the leadership acting in a way that doesn’t seem to be in accordance with the teachings of the Church. Its hard to explain to people why our bishop needed a new half million dollar house, instead of living in the residence our bishops have lived in for a long time. Especially when I am paying a fortune for my kids to go to PSR, or sing in the choir, or join the youth group.

Its hard when faced with scandal and sexual improprieties to explain that the Church doesn’t bear “bad fruit”.

Its especially hard when getting an appointment with your pastor is near impossible.

I’m not saying that these mean the Church isn’t true, but that just blowing these concerns off isn’t exactly the best way to reach out to our separated family.

I agree that these concerns shouldn’t be blown off or just brushed aside but at the same time I think people need to differentiate the doctrine and teachings of the Church from the behaviors of it’s ‘leaders’.

Does the home your Bishop lives in change the fact that God ordered us to care for the poor?

Does the fact that some priests (a very small minority at that) committed horrible crimes mean that the Church’s teaching on sexual morality is unsound and illogical?

I think too often in our society we judge a set of beliefs on those who follow it (for example, people buy into Dr. Oz or Dr. Phil because they showed up on Oprah and people like Oprah so anything she endorses must be good). But that’s a completely ridiculous way to approach truth.

2+2 does not stop equally 4 because the math teacher who taught me this truth turned out to be a student molesting jerk!

The Theory of Gravity doesn’t cease to be true just because the person who taught me about it turned out to be a bank thief!

Truth is truth. No matter if those who teach it are flawed or not… and the Catholic Church TEACHES truth. Sometimes members of the Church don’t LIVE that truth but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s teachings on morality are true and sound.

 

[mommamia]

Nicky, I agree with what you say, but those who leave are also human. We have to at least admit that these are valid reasons people might question the faith, address how the Church is working to fix the problems, and remember some are confused…not rebellious.

 

[Tigg]

One thing I heard in this thread I think needs to be discussed.

This idea I’ve heard, that I’m going to try to paraphrase here : “we have the truth and if you don’t see it because the actions of those who represent our Church are horrible, it’s totally your problem and you ought to just know we have the truth”

Maybe instead we really need to address some of these concerns. I love my Church, but some days its very hard to keep the faith when I see the leadership acting in a way that doesn’t seem to be in accordance with the teachings of the Church. Its hard to explain to people why our bishop needed a new half million dollar house, instead of living in the residence our bishops have lived in for a long time. Especially when I am paying a fortune for my kids to go to PSR, or sing in the choir, or join the youth group.

Its hard when faced with scandal and sexual improprieties to explain that the Church doesn’t bear “bad fruit”.

Its especially hard when getting an appointment with your pastor is near impossible.

I’m not saying that these mean the Church isn’t true, but that just blowing these concerns off isn’t exactly the best way to reach out to our separated family.

The Church is an institution of both the human and Divine. What we sometimes witness is the human element in all of its weakness and sin which cannot negate the action of the Holy Spirit, Who is truth.

We must pray for those embittered against the Church, and who have lost their faith, but know that the true faith will always prevail through Tradition and the promises of Christ. We must stand on the fact that our Holy Liturgy and the continual offering of Christ to His Father does not at all depend upon the efficacy or holiness of the priest, but upon the power of Christ Himself. And the weeds and the wheat will grow together until the harvest.

"It is true there have been seasons when from the operation of external or internal causes, the Church has been thrown into what was almost a state of deliquium, but her wonderful revivals while the world was triumphing over her is further evidence of the absence of corruption in the system of doctrine and worship into which she has developed.
~ Cardinal Newman ~

I believe that those who have lapsed, have simply lost faith and try to rationalize that fact with all manner of excuses. Even Christ Himself did not force His teachings upon the unbelieving…He let them walk away!

 

[mommamia]

The Church is an institution of both the human and Divine. What we sometimes witness is the human element in all of its weakness and sin which cannot negate the action of the Holy Spirit, Who is truth.

We must pray for those embittered against the Church, and who have lost their faith, but know that the true faith will always prevail through Tradition and the promises of Christ. We must stand on the fact that our Holy Liturgy and the continual offering of Christ to His Father does not at all depend upon the efficacy or holiness of the priest, but upon the power of Christ Himself. And the weeds and the wheat will grow together until the harvest.

I believe that those who have lapsed, have simply lost faith and try to rationalize that fact with all manner of excuses. Even Christ Himself did not force His teachings upon the unbelieving…He let them walk away!

This is what I am talking about, you just assume that they are trying to rationalize with “excuses”…the same could be said about the Church…they are trying to keep their membership by rationalizing bad behavior with “excuses”

I agree that the Church has the fullness of truth, but that does no one any good if we drive people away with our actions and refusal to acknowledge that these are real problems and not excuses.

 

[wynnejj]

I believe that those who have lapsed, have simply lost faith and try to rationalize that fact with all manner of excuses. Even Christ Himself did not force His teachings upon the unbelieving…He let them walk away!

Our Lord used strong language for moral leaders whose behavior confused church membership… He called them “hypocrites! vipers!” together as if the two words meant the same thing … that is, when you are a hypocrite, you act as a viper to poison people’s faith. To say one is rationalizing may be far short of the truth. One can lose their faith and want to believe, but have a case of “involuntary doubt”. That is, I want to believe, but I cannot reconcile my faith with reason based on experiences.

Let me ask you about ‘doubting Thomas’. Did he simply lose faith and try to rationalize that fact with all manner of excuses? He lost faith probably because Jesus died with the words “My God, My God. Why have you forsaken me?”. Why didn’t he believe the other Apostles? Did he think that they were a bit crazy with faith without reason?

 

[wynnejj]

I agree that the Church has the fullness of truth, but that does no one any good if we drive people away with our actions and refusal to acknowledge that these are real problems and not excuses.

Here’s an example from Archbishop Dolan … words that I needed to hear … just an acknowledgement …

What about the argument that vast numbers of Catholics ignore the church’s teachings about sexuality? Doesn’t the church have a problem conveying its moral principles to its own flock? “Do we ever!” the archbishop replies with a hearty laugh. “I’m not afraid to admit that we have an internal catechetical challenge—a towering one—in convincing our own people of the moral beauty and coherence of what we teach. That’s a biggie.”

For this he faults the church leadership. “We have gotten gun-shy . . . in speaking with any amount of cogency on chastity and sexual morality.” He dates this diffidence to “the mid- and late '60s, when the whole world seemed to be caving in, and where Catholics in general got the impression that what the Second Vatican Council taught, first and foremost, is that we should be chums with the world, and that the best thing the church can do is become more and more like everybody else.”

The “flash point,” the archbishop says, was “Humanae Vitae,” Pope Paul VI’s 1968 encyclical reasserting the church’s teachings on sex, marriage and reproduction, including its opposition to artificial contraception. It “brought such a tsunami of dissent, departure, disapproval of the church, that I think most of us—and I’m using the first-person plural intentionally, including myself—kind of subconsciously said, ‘Whoa. We’d better never talk about that, because it’s just too hot to handle.’ We forfeited the chance to be a coherent moral voice when it comes to one of the more burning issues of the day.”

Without my having raised the subject, he adds that the church’s sex-abuse scandal “intensified our laryngitis over speaking about issues of chastity and sexual morality, because we almost thought, ‘I’ll blush if I do. . . . After what some priests and some bishops, albeit a tiny minority, have done, how will I have any credibility in speaking on that?’”

Yet the archbishop says he sees a hunger, especially among young adults, for a more authoritative church voice on sexuality. “They will be quick to say, ‘By the way, we want you to know that we might not be able to obey it. . . . But we want to hear it. And in justice, you as our pastors need to tell us, and you need to challenge us.’”

From When the Archbishop Met With the President … by James Taranto (Wall Street Journal)

 

[mommamia]

Great words from the archbishop!

 

[Tigg]

Our Lord used strong language for moral leaders whose behavior confused church membership… He called them “hypocrites! vipers!” together as if the two words meant the same thing … that is, when you are a hypocrite, you act as a viper to poison people’s faith. To say one is rationalizing may be far short of the truth. One can lose their faith and want to believe, but have a case of “involuntary doubt”. That is, I want to believe, but I cannot reconcile my faith with reason based on experiences.

Let me ask you about ‘doubting Thomas’. Did he simply lose faith and try to rationalize that fact with all manner of excuses? He lost faith probably because Jesus died with the words “My God, My God. Why have you forsaken me?”. Why didn’t he believe the other Apostles? Did he think that they were a bit crazy with faith without reason?

We are given supernatural gifts which, of course, does not mean that we will never doubt, nor question. That is part of the discernment process. Thomas’ heart was open to instruction and grace; he merely had to be shown the way, and once that happened - he submitted to faith. An essential and conscious act. * My Lord and My God - in other words, I believe!* In order to live an obedient and faith-filled life, we must consciously choose to nurture the gifts given us at Baptism. I am well aware of the harm caused by wolves in sheep’s clothing; my contention is that we cannot lose our faith (that is, truth) except through our own willful negligence by not praying, not participating in the sacraments, not attending Mass, or by vice which has not been conquered with virtue. Look at the saints and the terrible trials they suffered while going through the Dark Night and the loss of a felt sense of God’s presence, which paradoxically, only strengthened their faith. God does not deny His grace to us, knowing that without it will we surely fail, but we must cooperate with it.

How is it that any Catholic was able to withstand the awful betrayal of the pedophilia scandal? We did it only by keeping our eyes on the Divine element – and recognizing the human in it’s most iniquitous state.

 

[BenedictFTW]

I have many relatives who are lapsed Catholics. From what I can see, and in my humble opinion, they choose to leave the Church because that means they can live as they please. Some have taken to believing in reincarnation, while others have nothing but bile to pour out against our Church.

Personally, I believe that disobedience and pride lies at the base of it all, but also a terrible ignorance at the riches they have thrown away. I must admit I also blame a certain amount of it on the lack of catechesis today. Most priests are so intent on not turning away the congregation, that they are loath to speak on the main issues of Church teaching - adultery, living in sin, abortion, practising homosexuality, euthanasia, to name a few.

It has been a very long time since I heard a priest lay down the law to people, telling them that the way they live today, outside of the teachings of the Church, will take them all to Hell. Lapsed Catholics are not being told enough; that they are choosing their own damnation, as St Leonard of Port Maurice says in his wonderful sermon - How Few are Saved! He explains that of all the adults in the Catholic Church, very few will be saved, due mainly to their choices in not living the faith. He was speaking in the 15th or 16th century!!! Times are much worse now, imo.

 

[wynnejj]

Tigg, Are you ascribing Thomas’ involuntary doubt to a lack of prayer, sacraments, etc - as compared to the others? Or would you agree that he had trouble looking beyond his real world observations with a more scientific truth-seeking requirement for observed facts, as opposed to taking everything based on faith on the say-so of his compadres, some of whom showed the depths of their faith when they didn’t show up at the foot of the cross?

Would you wish to express your belief (as others have as much said)…

I believe that those who have lapsed, have simply lost faith and try to rationalize that fact with all manner of excuses.

Wouldn’t that assertion of motivations come under the heading of rash judgement in the case of ‘doubting Thomas’? Would you have used those words to answer Thomas’ doubts if you were a fellow apostle?

 

[Tenofovir]

How is it that any Catholic was able to withstand the awful betrayal of the pedophilia scandal? We did it only by keeping our eyes on the Divine element – and recognizing the human in it’s most iniquitous state.

The pedophilia scandal did not impress me as being a significant indicator of the state of morality of the Church per se, but rather one of the state of morality of some bishops and priests and the level of competence of their secular advisers. Science is still out if pedophilia can be cured. Also most of the scandal in the church did not involve pedophilia (abuse of children of either sex under the age of 13) but mostly same sex love relationships with adolescents. Seeing as marriage would not have prevented either, pedophiles and people who prefer own sex would not offload their sexual frustrations on adult women I don’t really see a reason to leave the church, even if the abuse was widespread and involved large numbers of people. By that I mean numbers far out of proportion to teachers/professors having sexual relationships with students.

 

[BenedictFTW]

The paedophile scandal, although heinous, does not in any way detract from the Catholic Church’s teaching or traditions. The Fathers of our Catholic Church are the most amazing philosophers and teachers; not to mention that Jesus gave the keys of His Kingdom to St Peter - the first pope.

I am sorry, but a few paedophiles cannot touch the Bride of Christ in any way. Those who keep going on about it and blaming it for their leaving the Church are just using it as an excuse for their own waywardness. As Fr Stan Fortuna would say “Get over yourselves!!!”

 

[wynnejj]

We are given supernatural gifts which, of course, does not mean that we will never doubt, nor question. That is part of the discernment process. Thomas’ heart was open to instruction and grace; he merely had to be shown the way, and once that happened - he submitted to faith. An essential and conscious act. * My Lord and My God - in other words, I believe!* In order to live an obedient and faith-filled life, we must consciously choose to nurture the gifts given us at Baptism. I am well aware of the harm caused by wolves in sheep’s clothing; my contention is that we cannot lose our faith (that is, truth) except through our own willful negligence by not praying, not participating in the sacraments, not attending Mass, or by vice which has not been conquered with virtue. Look at the saints and the terrible trials they suffered while going through the Dark Night and the loss of a felt sense of God’s presence, which paradoxically, only strengthened their faith. God does not deny His grace to us, knowing that without it will we surely fail, but we must cooperate with it.

P.S. I was so intent on getting across the point of my previous post, that I forgot to balance my argument by asserting that indeed one is truly blessed if they can subdue their need for real world proof to take things simply on faith. If one prays, receives the sacraments worthily and trusts in the Church, they can save themselves a whole lot of heartache. I am not in disagreement there … and your assertion is supported by Our Lord’s words to Thomas about “Blessed are those who have not seen, but have believed.”. Remember, though, that the apostles had witnessed miracles and Jesus’ gospel. Did their belief hinge strictly on the Jesus words, or were the miracles a significant proof requirement to accept Jesus words? Did they need something tangible and observable? Doubting Thomas was just a case in point about involuntary doubt. The other regarding walking on water, the boat in the storm, etc, and many others un-recorded may also serve as examples. Motivations? Not excuses, not rationalizations… maybe fear response overriding faith response?

 

[St_Francis]

This is what I am talking about, you just assume that they are trying to rationalize with “excuses”…the same could be said about the Church…they are trying to keep their membership by rationalizing bad behavior with “excuses”

The Church is not rationalizing bad behavior: The behavior occurred; bishops mishandled those situations; many in the hierarchy have apologized; and steps have been taken to prevent recurrences.

Moreover, the bad behavior is *against *the teaching of the Church. That is what happens to people who do *not *follow the teachings of the Church.

I have heard stories about people who rightfully accused priests and had a bad reception. But guess what? *The exact same thing happens in the world as well. *Students who have accused popular teachers of misbehavior have had the same sort of reception. Same in other other eccesial communities. But the Catholic Church has a center and a hierarchy, so the public does not receive the news the same way as when it happens in the decentralized school system or other eccesial communities.

What seems odd to me is that people leave the Church, which leads to God, for the world, which offers *nothing *better. There are scandals in the world, probably a lot more, proportionately. And the world leads nowhere. So leaving doesn’t make sense.

I agree that the Church has the fullness of truth, but that does no one any good if we drive people away with our actions and refusal to acknowledge that these are real problems and not excuses.

I would say that some, esp the young, leave because they are dazzled by te world, and many of all ages because of a lack of catchesis, altho as they get older, they must assume more responsibility for their own learning or lack thereof. Many, many, many have left because they wanted to do their own thing, many who wanted to use abc and participate in the sexual revolution. Oh, they have their excuses, but what it boils down to is those who proclaim Church teaching to those who do not want to follow it are seen as arrogant people hung up on rules.

I do feel for those who do not know what the Church teaches–I was one of them. But I was one of them because those whose job it was to teach me and so many others like me *didn’t do their jobs; *they were too busy finding themselves or using abc or being “relevant” to do what they were supposed to do. Now we have whole generations who have fallen through the cracks.

But I am tired of the hand-holding of people who *do *make excuses, who *do *want what they want more than they want God; and who *do *end up neglecting their responsibilities to teach others in doing all this. Christ said to the apostles that they should shake the dust of towns which would not receive them off their sandals: He didn’t say we should hold their hands and make everything they want it to be so that they would start to listen.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I have many relatives who are lapsed Catholics. From what I can see, and in my humble opinion, they choose to leave the Church because that means they can live as they please. Some have taken to believing in reincarnation, while others have nothing but bile to pour out against our Church.

Personally, I believe that disobedience and pride lies at the base of it all, but also a terrible ignorance at the riches they have thrown away. I must admit I also blame a certain amount of it on the lack of catechesis today. Most priests are so intent on not turning away the congregation, that they are loath to speak on the main issues of Church teaching - adultery, living in sin, abortion, practising homosexuality, euthanasia, to name a few.

It has been a very long time since I heard a priest lay down the law to people, telling them that the way they live today, outside of the teachings of the Church, will take them all to Hell. Lapsed Catholics are not being told enough; that they are choosing their own damnation, as St Leonard of Port Maurice says in his wonderful sermon - How Few are Saved! He explains that of all the adults in the Catholic Church, very few will be saved, due mainly to their choices in not living the faith. He was speaking in the 15th or 16th century!!! Times are much worse now, imo.

Ya…lets throw more judgement at them…that will help a lot!

What is it about those that were lucky enough to be born…and fully raised Catholic…that stay…that some of them think it’s all them…they were holy and good enough to have stayed. That is the way some of it comes across. Kind of the whole other son of the prodigal son. Look…you got to be with the Father the whole time…you were lucky…don’t be disgruntled about those of us who left…and came back.

Not all Catholics have left because they want to do anything they please.

Yes…Jesus let some unbelievers go…but the Father went running out to meet the prodigal son…

Many Catholics also feel that they are not worthy of coming back…and that they would be judged when they do come back…and your comments make me think that they are not wrong.

I was lucky to find a good, caring priest and a wonder Catholics Can Come Home program to lead me back to the Eucharistic table.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

It’s not supposed to be all about us! It’s about what the Church determines gives proper and due praise to the Sacred Action taking place.

True…but I’ve seen many a staunch Catholic on this thread who have written that they feel justified in either not going to Mass or leaving Mass early because they didn’t like the music…or a guitar was being used. This is the Holy Mass…and you are leaving early because you don’t like…

The more traditional Mass I got to early (I go more for the time then anything) - the choir sucks to be quite frank…off tune the entire time. But it’s the Mass…and I offer it up.

It just seems that some think it’s ok to disagree with the music if it’s not what they think…but that others are wrong if they like a guitar…

 

[CMatt25]

Ya…lets throw more judgement at them…that will help a lot!

Many Catholics also feel that they are not worthy of coming back…and that they would be judged when they do come back…and your comments make me think that they are not wrong.

 

[CMatt25]

Ya…lets throw more judgement at them…that will help a lot!

What is it about those that were lucky enough to be born…and fully raised Catholic…that stay…that some of them think it’s all them…they were holy and good enough to have stayed. That is the way some of it comes across.

Not all Catholics have left because they want to do anything they please.

Many Catholics also feel that they are not worthy of coming back…and that they would be judged when they do come back…and your comments make me think that they are not wrong.

 

[St_Francis]

Ya…lets throw more judgement at them…that will help a lot!

I think if we are going to acknowledge problems, we should acknowledge all of them. And it is the case that many leave the Church because they want to do something that the Church teaches is wrong.

But you know what? In a way, that’s better than those “I’m a Catholic but…” types. You know the type I mean: I’m a Catholic but I think abc is all right." or “I’m a Catholic but as a public official, I think women ought to have the [so-called] right to choose [to pay someone to kill her child].”

What is it about those that were lucky enough to be born…and fully raised Catholic…that stay…that some of them think it’s all them…they were holy and good enough to have stayed. That is the way some of it comes across. Kind of the whole other son of the prodigal son. Look…you got to be with the Father the whole time…you were lucky…don’t be disgruntled about those of us who left…and came back.

The prodigal son *repented. *That is the difference.

If we are going to do something, we should be like St Monica and *pray. *While no one is stopping us from praying, when the bishops institute programs likw this, they do not ask for prayers and do not mention that anyone is praying. What does this teach us?

Not all Catholics have left because they want to do anything they please.

Yes…Jesus let some unbelievers go…but the Father went running out to meet the prodigal son…

Who repented.

Many Catholics also feel that they are not worthy of coming back…and that they would be judged when they do come back…and your comments make me think that they are not wrong.

I think that those of us who point out that some Catholics leave for petty or selfish reasons would rejoice when someone set those reasons aside, repented, and humbly returned to submit themselves to God’s will. I pray for the reversion of my relatives who have left

I was lucky to find a good, caring priest and a wonder Catholics Can Come Home program to lead me back to the Eucharistic table.