Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter MarcoPolo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think if we are going to acknowledge problems, we should acknowledge all of them. And it is the case that many leave the Church because they want to do something that the Church teaches is wrong.
I am willing to admit many leave for selfish reasons, but you seem unable to accept that some leave because they have been deeply hurt by the Church and are confused. We must accept the validity of their reasoning, and bring them back in love. If we tell someone in that position that there reasons are just excuses to behave immorally, instead of helping them come to resolution, we will just push them farther away.

I say this as one who was abused from a young age. The abuse started when I was 2, and when I finally got the guts to tell someone when I was 12, I was told I should look and see what I had done to cause it. So, yeah I had some issues with the Church. But a wonderful and caring nun brought me back. She certainly never accused me of leaving so I could do as I pleased.
 
P.S. I was so intent on getting across the point of my previous post, that I forgot to balance my argument by asserting that indeed one is truly blessed if they can subdue their need for real world proof to take things simply on faith. If one prays, receives the sacraments worthily and trusts in the Church, they can save themselves a whole lot of heartache. I am not in disagreement there … and your assertion is supported by Our Lord’s words to Thomas about “Blessed are those who have not seen, but have believed.”. Remember, though, that the apostles had witnessed miracles and Jesus’ gospel. Did their belief hinge strictly on the Jesus words, or were the miracles a significant proof requirement to accept Jesus words? Did they need something tangible and observable? Doubting Thomas was just a case in point about involuntary doubt. The other regarding walking on water, the boat in the storm, etc, and many others un-recorded may also serve as examples. Motivations? Not excuses, not rationalizations… maybe fear response overriding faith response?
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding the gist of your POV, and I will try to do a better job of explaining my position. I think I know what you mean by involuntary doubt. I remember in Catholic school when Sr explained the Real Presence. There was a little prayer she told us to say before Adoration, “Jesus, help my unbelief!” In other words, we were immature Christians, having the basis of faith, but vulnerable to many temptations as Satan would try to kill and/or distort that which had been planted. When I make the statement that lapsed Catholics have left the church due to a lack of faith, I am not speaking of involuntary doubt. I think this is fairly common and we’ve all experienced it in one way or another, but that alone could never make us leave the Church. I reflect upon my own faith journey - the doubts, the rebellions I was guilty of in my younger days - even the outright sin, and am amazed that the Lord has still seen fit to bring me to the place I am today. It has been a long process, but I can honestly say that my faith means more to me than my life. I am absolutely bedazzled by the riches contained within the Treasury of our Church, but as my love has grown, so too, has my supplication. There is not one single day in my life that I do not pray for an even greater faith and trust in the Lord. I have become completely dependent upon grace, and take nothing for granted. Faith, the intangible, freely given by the Lord, must be either accepted or rejected by each one of us, and it continues to grow and grow - or NOT.

And no, I do not judge the heart’s motivation, only the actions of those lapsed souls – lost amid the world’s confusion and unable to help themselves (I guess,) although God never stops trying to get them back and despite the fact that they have Truth right under their noses. Healing is there for them for their woundedness, but I wonder if they truly seek it? And many of them become the dissidents who unfortunately are not content to just go their own way and leave us alone. They have made themselves self-professed theologians, reject God’s revelation as defined by the Church, and in their perversity, many even belittle us for that which we hold dear. They do not leave to join another Church, but continually try to undermine the goodness and holiness of that very thing which they have rejected. I pray constantly for them all.

If they believed and submitted their hearts to God, how richly He would bless them.
 
The point of contention is evangelization that stereotypes lapsed Catholics as rationalizers. If Peter who denied Jesus three times and did not show up at the foot of the cross said to doubting Thomas … the reason that you do not believe we saw the risen Jesus is that you are just rationalizing all kinds of excuses to deny Christ … what do you think his response would be? Would it be something like “I don’t believe YOU, not Christ”?

It is not that stereotyping is not generally typical, but it is lapsed Catholic profiling that has no rightful place in Catholic apologetics.
 
I am willing to admit many leave for selfish reasons, but you seem unable to accept that some leave because they have been deeply hurt by the Church and are confused. We must accept the validity of their reasoning, and bring them back in love. If we tell someone in that position that there reasons are just excuses to behave immorally, instead of helping them come to resolution, we will just push them farther away.
I admit that esp in a few of my replies I did not adequately specify that I did not mean all lapsed Catholics and I apologize for that. I totally agree that there are people who are not practicing their faith for many different reasons.

And I think that even those who are practicing and not lapsed need to practice harder so as not to come across as unwelcoming to those who are sincerely journeying or returning.

A parish needs to become a community and accept all who enter because they come at the behest of God.
I say this as one who was abused from a young age. The abuse started when I was 2, and when I finally got the guts to tell someone when I was 12, I was told I should look and see what I had done to cause it. So, yeah I had some issues with the Church. But a wonderful and caring nun brought me back. She certainly never accused me of leaving so I could do as I pleased.
I am so very sorry that you experienced such a terrible crime against you, esp so young and for so long. How wonderful that you encountered a nun who was truly doing God’s will to help you heal.
 
The paedophile scandal, although heinous, does not in any way detract from the Catholic Church’s teaching or traditions. The Fathers of our Catholic Church are the most amazing philosophers and teachers; not to mention that Jesus gave the keys of His Kingdom to St Peter - the first pope.

I am sorry, but a few paedophiles cannot touch the Bride of Christ in any way. Those who keep going on about it and blaming it for their leaving the Church are just using it as an excuse for their own waywardness. As Fr Stan Fortuna would say “Get over yourselves!!!”
It may have been only a few but it cost the Church a lot of money. Several dioceses have gone into bankruptcies to boot. Just saying.
 
It may have been only a few but it cost the Church a lot of money. Several dioceses have gone into bankruptcies to boot. Just saying.
Money that could have otherwise for instance been used to serve more of the poor and more of all those mentioned in Matt 25:35-36.
 
Money that could have otherwise for instance been used to serve more of the poor and more of all those mentioned in Matt 25:35-36.
Separately, the result of closed parishes, which ProVobis referred to, has also been reduced Mass attendance and sacramental reception because of the inconvenience factor, which has compromised the spirituality of many members of the laity who find themselves unable to participate in the Church’s sacramental life as regularly as they once did (depending on where and how many closings). Many CAF’ers have reported the scant availability of confession & Mass locally, due to many of their nearby parishes closing.

What I mean to say is that people often assume that parishes close because of dwindling clergy (& insufficient replacement). But they also close when the diocese cannot support those parishes which have not been entirely self-sufficient financially due to low Mass attendance. There are many combined factors for parish closings, and one of the most important factors is the indirect effect of sex-abuse settlements. That loss of money makes dioceses more dependent on parishioners to subsidize the charitable work of the Church (Bishops’ appeals, etc.), which ironically is also made more difficult by low Mass attendance. There’s a symbiotic dynamic involved in the ability of the institutional Church to fund projects for the poor.
 
I am sorry, but a few paedophiles cannot touch the Bride of Christ in any way. Those who keep going on about it and blaming it for their leaving the Church are just using it as an excuse for their own waywardness.
Unless they were the ones victimized by the paedophile priests. Paedophilia can and does touch the Church, and has cost it dearly.
 
The paedophile scandal, although heinous, does not in any way detract from the Catholic Church’s teaching or traditions. The Fathers of our Catholic Church are the most amazing philosophers and teachers; not to mention that Jesus gave the keys of His Kingdom to St Peter - the first pope.

I am sorry, but a few paedophiles cannot touch the Bride of Christ in any way. Those who keep going on about it and blaming it for their leaving the Church are just using it as an excuse for their own waywardness. As Fr Stan Fortuna would say “Get over yourselves!!!”
Wow, this is just so mean, so incredibly ignorant and self righteous, I don’t even know what to say.

I will pray for you.
 
Not only do those victimized by clergy sexual abuse have logical and emotional reasons to leave the Church, even those Catholics not directly victimized but disgusted by various insufficient responses by the institutional Church have reason to dissociate. (And clearly members from both groups have done so.)

Trauma is real, and is not to be trivialized, as that gravely violates charity. Similarly, the laity have important insights and valid responses to the abuse situation. The hierarchy values the wisdom of the laity, both with regard to spirituality and with regard to constructive suggestions. However, the paradox is that men in black do not “contain” or restrict the grace of God. The sacraments transcend those who administer them. As I said earlier, the sacramental life of the Church has an integrity of its own that is absolute and not subject to debasement by the individual sins of its ministers. As with any trauma, or any distress, it takes work to disassociate current events and actions from past or particular situations. If that can’t be done by the individual (easier if one was not a direct victim), then professional help is called for for the sake of the faithful, not as some excuse, permission, or denial of severe injury, grave sin, and serious crime, but for purpose of access to the infinite font of grace which transcends the evils of human beings.

The laity – and supremely so those who have been injured by God’s servants – have an absolute right to the sacramental life of the Church, both for spiritual sustenance and for practical healing. “Leaving” is an understandable reaction in the short term, but is not a permanent “solution” for all of us who need Christ’s life desperately. Trauma is crisis, but so is the absence of sacramental life for any truly believing Catholic.

Therefore, leaving is not to be trivialized or dismissed as reflective of character flaws by those who leave. I not only think – I know – that many Catholics have left for trivial reasons, reasons of convenience, and rationalizations: they admit as much. But that’s separate from other categories of departure, which are serious and may have occurred by those most sensitive, most thoughtful, most valuable to the body of the Church.

It’s just that those who leave indefinitely are secondarily allowing themselves (without intending to) to be victimized, and that is not a solution or a constructive response. It is an emotional reaction. In itself it does not address or redress the sexual abuse crisis. It deprives the person exiting from the graces he or she is entitled to.

We need to try to think of it this way:
When speaking about the general difficulty with forgiving others of grave offenses (not specific to clergy abuse) Johnette Benkovic has discussed how different forgiveness is from denial of the offense, not to mention from denial of the severe emotional effects of that offense. What forgiveness does is to liberate the individual from the bonds of enslavement to anger & retribution: it does not minimize the gravity of the offense, nor pretend it never existed, nor turn the blame inward, nor give the perpetrator a “pass” on his grave crimes/sins. It acknowledges the deep and often permanent hurt, but releases the blaming energy being perpetuated by the victim, into God’s hands, and allows the victim to move on — as still an injured person but without the burden of depleting & permanent anger toward the offender – an anger which is not necessarily affecting the offender, but is absolutely affecting and diminishing the victim.
 
My Irish Catholic grandmother left after the parish priest publicly, in church, chastised her for her marriage to a non-Catholic.

It’s easy to say, “well, she should have _______ (fill in the blank).” But I can’t imagine what that was like for her, sitting there in a small rural church where everyone knew everyone. And I cannot find it in my heart to blame her.
Not only did that drive her from the Church, but because if it, my father never had a good word to say about the Catholic Church during the remaining 50+ years of his life.

These things don’t only affect the individual who may leave.
Therefore, leaving is not to be trivialized or dismissed as reflective of character flaws by those who leave. I not only think – I know – that many Catholics have left for trivial reasons, reasons of convenience, and rationalizations: they admit as much. But that’s separate from other categories of departure, which are serious and may have occurred by those most sensitive, most thoughtful, most valuable to the body of the Church.
 
My Irish Catholic grandmother left after the parish priest publicly, in church, chastised her for her marriage to a non-Catholic.
Lucky it wasn’t worse. Some people have been chastised for deeds that the priest ought not to have let out of the Confessional. 😦
 
These things don’t only affect the individual who may leave.
Again, reread my post: I never said that. In fact, I said specifically in one of the first paragraphs that offensive behavior affects many others as well.

Your grandmother reacted in a natural fashion to an offense, as did any other relatives secondarily. (I spoke about secondary reactions already.) But neither your grandmother’s reaction nor those of any other relatives were constructive responses to an unfortunate blunder, or even a series of blunders. They ultimately deprived those relatives much more than they deprived the offending priest.
 
Your grandmother reacted in a natural fashion to an offense, as did any other relatives secondarily. (I spoke about secondary reactions already.) But neither your grandmother’s reaction nor those of any other relatives were constructive responses to an unfortunate blunder, or even a series of blunders. They ultimately deprived those relatives much more than they deprived the offending priest.
Quite true, but tell the relatives that at the time the “blunder” occurred. I don’t think that most people would be worrying about “constructive responses” to clerical misconduct or insensitivity.

Had that happened to my Polish grandmother (which it didn’t BTW) my always-ready-for-a-fight grandfather would have beaten the bejesus out of that priest when he would have gotten hold of him. 😉
 
Quite true, but tell the relatives that at the time the “blunder” occurred. I don’t think that most people would be worrying about “constructive responses” to clerical misconduct or insensitivity.
Again, for possibly the fourth time since I’ve posted on this thread, I didn’t say that. I said that – as with every emotional reaction to every situation in life – a reaction is a reaction, and that’s all it is – including justified, logical reactions. In the case of a reaction which produces retreat for the person wronged, it is the retreater who is affected, not the offender. It solves nothing, produces nothing.

Nor did I ever say that “clerical misconduct or insensitivity” does not produce justified outrage. Your statement is a non sequitur from my argument, Counselor.
 
I am willing to admit many leave for selfish reasons, but you seem unable to accept that some leave because they have been deeply hurt by the Church and are confused. We must accept the validity of their reasoning, and bring them back in love. If we tell someone in that position that there reasons are just excuses to behave immorally, instead of helping them come to resolution, we will just push them farther away.

I say this as one who was abused from a young age. The abuse started when I was 2, and when I finally got the guts to tell someone when I was 12, I was told I should look and see what I had done to cause it. So, yeah I had some issues with the Church. But a wonderful and caring nun brought me back. She certainly never accused me of leaving so I could do as I pleased.
I thought that this thread is addressed to lapsed Catholics who leave through apathy, like my relatives. My relatives were brought up by devout Catholics, who gave great example on how to live Christian lives. They were churched, ie. baptised, communed and confirmed; they were taught the Word by good priests and teachers as well as their parents. Yet, they are now lapsed, living in sin, using contraception, believing in false gods and generally couldn’t care less whether God is watching them or not. They have not got the excuse that they were abused. None of them were! They just cannot be bothered. These are the lapsed Catholics that need to be made aware of the riches they have shrugged off. God help them, they are in for such a shock when they die and face Our Saviour sitting on His Judgement Seat. I quake in my shoes at the thought. I pray for them every day to see the error of their ways.
 
I thought that this thread is addressed to lapsed Catholics who leave through apathy, like my relatives. My relatives were brought up by devout Catholics, who gave great example on how to live Christian lives. They were churched, ie. baptised, communed and confirmed; they were taught the Word by good priests and teachers as well as their parents. Yet, they are now lapsed, living in sin, using contraception, believing in false gods and generally couldn’t care less whether God is watching them or not. They have not got the excuse that they were abused. None of them were! They just cannot be bothered. These are the lapsed Catholics that need to be made aware of the riches they have shrugged off. God help them, they are in for such a shock when they die and face Our Saviour sitting on His Judgement Seat. I quake in my shoes at the thought. I pray for them every day to see the error of their ways.
You are speaking of particular people you know, and can’t be challenged on what they’re like, but there are some who simply leave the faith because they’ve lost it, and live generally in an other than sin-filled state. Some just can’t be bothered as you say, but for reasons rather than excuses. God will weigh their culpability, but the consequences may not be all that dreadful if they were intellectually honest about their departure from Catholicism.
 
I thought that this thread is addressed to lapsed Catholics who leave through apathy, like my relatives. My relatives were brought up by devout Catholics, who gave great example on how to live Christian lives. They were churched, ie. baptised, communed and confirmed; they were taught the Word by good priests and teachers as well as their parents. Yet, they are now lapsed, living in sin, using contraception, believing in false gods and generally couldn’t care less whether God is watching them or not. They have not got the excuse that they were abused. None of them were! They just cannot be bothered. These are the lapsed Catholics that need to be made aware of the riches they have shrugged off. God help them, they are in for such a shock when they die and face Our Saviour sitting on His Judgement Seat. I quake in my shoes at the thought. I pray for them every day to see the error of their ways.
Well I don’t “quake in my shoes,” because I trust that mercy is God’s, not ours, and is, in the writings and visions of mystics and saints, literally “unfathomable.” We all at the end of our lives will be facing divine judgment, which differs vastly from human judgment with its tendency to be unforgiving, absolute, and filled with retribution. God’s judgment is not something any of us can predict, not even for ourselves, let alone for others!

As for the article cited, it did include (or perhaps a fuller more inclusive article cited did include this): reactions to clergy sex abuse, even second-hand, which again, is a logical reason for horror and at least temporary departure.
 
Proper catechesis is needed. Worldly concerns and offences etc can loom large when the majesty of the Catholic Faith is not taught properly. Whenever human beings are involved, there will always be problems; however, whenever we are made aware of the fact that there is nothing outside of the Catholic Church by way of salvation, it is essential that we keep things in perspective. To leave the Church for the action of any human being is to throw the baby out with the bathwater, or to go from the frying pan into the fire.

The saints and mystics have also described Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. St Leonard of Port Maurice describes the number of adults who end up in Hell, through choosing their own damnation. Perspective is called for. Our Saviour gave us His Church to lead us to Heaven. Allowing anyone - even horrible paedophile priests - to rob you of the only way of salvation is folly.

God bless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top