Lapsed Catholics Explain Why They Leave the Church

[CMatt25]

I was watching Hardball last week and Chris Matthes asked why it appeared that the bishops are all Republicans and the nuns are all democrats. The nun that he asked said it was because the nuns were in the trenches with with the disenfranchised and the democratic policies seemed more favorable to those who were not in the upper 1%.

I often watch Chris but I missed his interview with the nun. I wish I had seen it as the nun seems to have spoken volumes.

 

[ishii]

I agree eating an 89 cent burger is a greater sacrifice than a Friday meal of scallops, lobster, etc. Yet the burger is somehow considered wrong. While the latter is acceptable.

Members have pushed me away as well. Though there are a few here who try not to.
.

Cmatt, why do you insist on pushing some myth that the Church tells us to eat lobster and scallops on Friday instead of an 89 cent burger? Why do you always present false choices then wrongly imply that the Church supports that false choice? Your post is very misleading.

Ishii

 

[Al_Moritz]

Furthermore, I really dislike how much the Church intertwines with politics, particularly in regard to its ties with the Republican Party. Because the GOP is “pro-life” I feel that many people think that they must not only be “pro-life,” but that they must also be staunch GOP supporters. In regard to the poor, I believe that the Democrats are more sympathetic and have policies that are more helpful to the plight of the underprivileged. The Republican ties (which run very deep on this forum) make me wary. I’ve seen logic go out the window so that people can remain faithful to right. Both parties have their good and bad people, policies, etc., and I wish that there could be more acknowledgment of that. I think I’ve been seeing a bit of greediness sneak its way into this religion, by way of the GOP. There seems to be this overwhelming idea that we are all starting from a level playing field and that if everyone puts in the same amount of work, then he or she can achieve the same level of success as someone who was born into a privileged family. There seems to be a lack of empathy for poor and minority groups, and I think that stems from the GOP, which has made its way to Catholicism through the party’s “pro-life” stance.

I agree with all of this, and I am shocked and appalled at the hard-heartedness of quite a number of Catholics on this board when it comes to defending the GOP at any cost, just because it is “pro-life”.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

Today’s readings (click) are about lapsed and fallen away Catholics!

Here’s a tough line for you all:

He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit,

Or this one:

people will gather them and throw them into a fire

 

[CMatt25]

Cmatt, why do you insist on pushing some myth that the Church tells us to eat lobster and scallops on Friday instead of an 89 cent burger? Why do you always present false choices then wrongly imply that the Church supports that false choice? Your post is very misleading.

Ishii

Ishii, I am not pushing any such thing. I never said the Church tells you to eat lobster and scallops. But if you do She certainly doesn’t tell you it is breaking abstinance law. Yet if you eat the 89 cent burger as a sacrifice She says you are wrong.

 

[CMatt25]

JHarek, I actually skipped the 89 cent one today and splurged on a more expensive burger today. Single with cheese, lettuce, tomato, pickle, onion, mayo and XTRA catsup. Of course it was a Sunday non Lenten dinner.

 

[ringil]

So the politics espoused on this forum and in what I fear the greater Church at large today is a huge turn off to me as well.

God bless you along your journey and peace be with you always.

I don’t see this in the larger Church. This espousement with Conservative politics is just CAF, though many here would like it to represent the larger Church. It certainly isn’t representative of the worldwide church.

 

[ringil]

Good point,

There is also a flirtation with evangelical protestantism around here which can be seen in posts. There is biblical literalism, an embracing of the Potestant work ethic, and even a kind of national isolationalsim, which isn’t Catholic in perspective at all.

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t see this in the larger Church. This espousement with Conservative politics is just CAF, though many here would like it to represent the larger Church. It certainly isn’t representative of the worldwide church.

Ringil, I pray you are right and my fear of where the Church and Her clergy are going politically is unfounded. I probably do allow CAF to influence me too much. But do you think it might depend too on the region of America or of the world someone lives in? I for instance still just can’t get out of my mind a priest in my locale a couple of yrs ago during the recession, saying in a homily that his answer to the poor is to get a job. That just left me in complete shock and I nearly walked out of the weekday Mass I had attended that day. If it hadn’t been for me specifically attending that day in remembrance of my mother, I honestly think I would have. At another parish a few election cycles ago I recall the priest making it clear those of us in the pews should vote for the Republican candidate for POTUS. It had to do with the abortion issue. Which I suppose is also why I sometimes have the feeling I do about the Church and politics today. Because that single issue just seems to permeate and encompass every aspect of Catholic political thought nowadays. It along to perhaps a lesser degree homosexuality issues. But anyway btw FWIW you’re one of those though who I find who does not push others away. God bless you and peace.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

There are plenty of people here that push me away. They push me away from heterodox, unfaithful Catholicism.

 

[CMatt25]

There are plenty of people here that push me away. They push me away from heterodox, unfaithful Catholicism.

I’m glad you have found peace at where you are on your faith journey. God bless you always.

 

[ringil]

Ringil, I pray you are right and my fear of where the Church and Her clergy are going politically is unfounded. I probably do allow CAF to influence me too much. But do you think it might depend too on the region of America or of the world someone lives in? I for instance still just can’t get out of my mind a priest in my locale a couple of yrs ago during the recession, saying in a homily that his answer to the poor is to get a job. That just left me in complete shock and I nearly walked out of the weekday Mass I had attended that day. If it hadn’t been for me specifically attending that day in remembrance of my mother, I honestly think I would have. At another parish a few election cycles ago I recall the priest making it clear those of us in the pews should vote for the Republican candidate for POTUS. But anyway btw FWIW you’re one of those though who I find who does not push others away. God bless you and peace.

Regarding the attitudes found here on CAF; I feel that only those with a certain amount of intensity regarding religion will post on a forum and this tends to shape attitudes. The internet seems to be a new and popular tool for the Right- and the Left for that matter. But overall, more intense people will participate in internet discussions.

Many, many posters around here come from TX and other states in the midwest- which tend to be more conservative. I’ve actually wondered, before, why so many folks are from TX around here. It’s wild- check it out some time.

I’m sorry for your experience in church as that priest sounded a bit off course. Even a politically Conservative Priest is going to know better than to talk that way in a homily.

Looking around CAF you will see many thoughtful posts from Europeans, which give a much better picture of the worldwide Church.

In short: CAF isn’t normal in some ways. Here are examples of more “out there” ideas you will read:

The Earth is 6000 years old.
Women should not work outside of the home.
Defense of the Confederacy during the Civil War era.
The Civil Rights movement wasn’t neccessarily a good thing.
The Crusades were a glorious and holy endeavor.
Franco wasn’t “that bad of a guy”.
Hitler was a left winger.
Creationism should be taught in public schools.
The rich are more virtuous than the poor (a recent thread)
Weather patterns and celestial events are indicating that the Second Coming is near.

Just a few examples to show how CAF, though useful in many ways, should not be seen as an accurate picture of the Catholic Church.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

I realize there is such a thing as fraternal correction, but then, you’ve got those quotes from Christ about the dust off your feet, pearls before swine, and giving what is holy to dogs. Those are tough waters to navigate. I generally prefer to see error called out for those who will listen. You never know who reads these forums.

 

[CMatt25]

Regarding the attitudes found here on CAF; I feel that only those with a certain amount of intensity regarding religion will post on a forum and this tends to shape attitudes. The internet seems to be a new and popular tool for the Right- and the Left for that matter. But overall, more intense people will participate in internet discussions.

Many, many posters around here come from TX and other states in the midwest- which tend to be more conservative. I’ve actually wondered, before, why so many folks are from TX around here. It’s wild- check it out some time.

I’m sorry for your experience in church as that priest sounded a bit off course. Even a politically Conservative Priest is going to know better than to talk that way in a homily.

Looking around CAF you will see many thoughtful posts from Europeans, which give a much better picture of the worldwide Church.

In short: CAF isn’t normal in some ways. Here are examples of more “out there” ideas you will read:

The Earth is 6000 years old.
Women should not work outside of the home.
Defense of the Confederacy during the Civil War era.
The Civil Rights movement wasn’t neccessarily a good thing.
The Crusades were a glorious and holy endeavor.
Franco wasn’t “that bad of a guy”.
Hitler was a left winger.
Creationism should be taught in public schools.
The rich are more virtuous than the poor (a recent thread)
Weather patterns and celestial events are indicating that the Second Coming is near.

Just a few examples to show how CAF, though useful in many ways, should not be seen as an accurate picture of the Catholic Church.

I can see your points Ringil. And there does seem to be a lot of politically conservative Texans and if I’m not mistaken the founder/president of this forum is from San Diego which I also think has been known to be a conservative Republican bastion in what is known politically as a Democratic state. But I’ve lived the greater part of my life in small town midwestern USA and even there, there wasn’t as much conservativism. Of course the last Catholic priest there before I left was a Jesuit. But even the priests before him would routinely get together with clergy of other faiths for ecumenical breakfasts and the sort. I don’t know. It was just a different time and place perhaps. Without all the animosity. Thanks for your posts. God bless you and peace.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And another problem especially with those in the U.S. (and to a lesser extent outside) is what I call ‘box thinking’.

For example, a poster might write in stating that he or she is concerned about the problem of the immigration laws in the U.S. and that while certainly there is room for improvement and one must be attentive to genuine need, it is also correct that one may never do evil even in order to result in a good and that therefore the concept (not the individual, but the CONCEPT) of coming to the U.S. illegally needs to be addressed, but NOT in a way that basically ‘ignores’ the idea and ‘rewards’ those who do wrong…

No matter how delicate the nuances and how careful one is to be attentive to all the needs of all the people above, sooner or later some poster is going to start labeling.

And it’s going to be the "so you’re one of those ‘conservatives. You probably vote republican, are all for big business, are narrow minded, bigoted and intolerant.’

Mind you, had a poster written stating exactly the same things above but ending instead of 'coming to the U.S. illegally needs to be addressed but not in a way that penalizes those who are already here, working, and just trying to get by". . .THAT poster would get the OTHER label.

The "so you’re one of those bleeding heart liberals. You probably vote democrat, are pro choice, just want to throw money at problems and are so open minded your brains fell out.’

Boxes and labels. Epithets that turn the poster from a human being into a collection of ‘behaviors’ all neatly tied and labeled. You espouse view A, therefore you are in the ‘conservative box’ and MUST hold all that I care to label as conservative views, and therefore I can cheerfully bash your character and disregard your remarks because you’re nothing but one of those faceless brainless conservatives.

Or you espouse B, therefore you are in the ‘liberal’ box and MUST hold all that I care to label as liberal views which I can then bash you with etc. etc.

If ONLY people would actually address an individual concept or view without trying to ‘compartmentalize’ the person and turn the view into just another ‘label’. . .

 

[ishii]

Ishii, I am not pushing any such thing. I never said the Church tells you to eat lobster and scallops. But if you do She certainly doesn’t tell you it is breaking abstinance law. Yet if you eat the 89 cent burger as a sacrifice She says you are wrong.

Maybe the Church doesn’t specifically say that eating scallops and lobster is breaking the abstinence law because it shouldn’t have to. I could eat a filet of fish on a friday during lent and be following the rule of abstaining from eating meat. I could gorge myself on five filets of fish and still not break the abstinence rule, but common sense says that I would be violating the spirit of the abstinence rule and might be committing the sin of gluttony. I think common sense should prevail, obviously, and we need to not be pharisaical. Perhaps the Church assumes that most have some common sense and can see the difference between eating a tuna sandwich on Friday and eating a $50 piece of O-toro sushi. I will wait until Saturday to eat my sushi (and I don’t spend $50 on it either).

Ishii

 

[CMatt25]

Maybe the Church doesn’t specifically say that eating scallops and lobster is breaking the abstinence law because it shouldn’t have to. I could eat a filet of fish on a friday during lent and be following the rule of abstaining from eating meat. I could gorge myself on five filets of fish and still not break the abstinence rule, but common sense says that I would be violating the spirit of the abstinence rule and might be committing the sin of gluttony. I think common sense should prevail, obviously, and we need to not be pharisaical. Perhaps the Church assumes that most have some common sense and can see the difference between eating a tuna sandwich on Friday and eating a $50 piece of O-toro sushi. I will wait until Saturday to eat my sushi (and I don’t spend $50 on it either).

Ishii

Ishii, I’ll take a pass on sushi be it Fri or Sat but now throw in some grilled scallops and we’re in business. I did though have a delicious Fri Lenten meal this yr at a Catholic parish of 2 pcs of fish with tartar sauce, a heaping portion of fries, a delicous pineapple cole slaw, and a nice pc of yellow cake with chocolate frosting. All for $8. But I’d eat that any ol’ day of the week. I imagine many of the Catholics there would as well. So I still don’t see where it’s all that great a sacrifice.

 

[ishii]

Ishii, I’ll take a pass on sushi be it Fri or Sat but now throw in some grilled scallops and we’re in business. I did though have a delicious Fri Lenten meal this yr at a Catholic parish of 2 pcs of fish with tartar sauce, a heaping portion of fries, a delicous pineapple cole slaw, and a nice pc of yellow cake with chocolate frosting. All for $8. But I’d eat that any ol’ day of the week. So I still don’t see where it’s all that great a sacrifice.

You don’t like sushi? If you like seafood, then Friday’s during Lent can be quite nice. I guess if one truly wants to sacrifice and abstain during lent and have it mean something, then one really knows what they need to do so as not to be either pharisaical nor overly indulgent.

Ishii

 

[CMatt25]

You don’t like sushi? If you like seafood, then Friday’s during Lent can be quite nice. I guess if one truly wants to sacrifice and abstain during lent and have it mean something, then one really knows what they need to do so as not to be either pharisaical nor overly indulgent.

Ishii

Nope but I do like cooked seafood of almost any other type. Scallops being my favorite. Though due to medical reasons I need to limit the shellfish.

 

[Nec5]

In short: CAF isn’t normal in some ways. Here are examples of more “out there” ideas you will read:

The Earth is 6000 years old.
Women should not work outside of the home.
Defense of the Confederacy during the Civil War era.
The Civil Rights movement wasn’t neccessarily a good thing.
The Crusades were a glorious and holy endeavor.
Franco wasn’t “that bad of a guy”.
Hitler was a left winger.
Creationism should be taught in public schools.
The rich are more virtuous than the poor (a recent thread)
Weather patterns and celestial events are indicating that the Second Coming is near.

Just a few examples to show how CAF, though useful in many ways, should not be seen as an accurate picture of the Catholic Church.

In other words, many here actually think for themselves and challenge the status quo to reach the truth. Whether they agree with any of those things or not, the people who put forth those idea are at least thinking.