Large Families on Purpose

[adamhovey1988]

Okay I saw a mention of Irish twins, my two youngest sisters are two days less than a year apart and I have a niece and nephew that are 10 months apart say Mother same father for both cases

 

[jlc2k2]

How do mothers of many closely spaced children cope with the sleep deprivation during the baby years? Or if you don’t experience sleep deprivation then, why is that the case?

I don’t have a large family (at least on earth) but they are closely spaced together. I am blessed to naturally handle sleep deprivation fairly well. That’s probably been the biggest thing. Second has been insisting on nap/rest time, even as the kids get older. As a PP mentioned, that’s for me, not them.

Unlike most, I tend to handle nights on my own. My husband is a heavy sleeper and in the time it takes him to wake up enough and unfold a diaper, I can have the baby changed and reswaddled. And I’m a light enough sleeper that I’m going to be awake the whole time regardless.

And, finally, when I’m not pregnant, I drink a lot of caffeine.

 

[jmjZelie]

For hygienic reasons, the secondary locations ought to be separate, such as tooth-brushing at the kitchen sink and diaper changes in the laundry area.

I sincerely hope it didn’t sound like I would co-locate those two things. I plan to have a secondary diaper area in my bedroom and a secondary toothbrushing location by the kitchen sink.

In the bathroom, it is actually more sanitary to lower the lid before flushing and to store toothbrushes in a cabinet rather than in a holder kept on the counter. A toilet flushed with the lid up will send a small aerosol up into the air in the bathroom, and even hand rinsing can spray some contaminated droplets before the soap is applied. It isn’t a huge hazard, but in a big family it pays to do what can be done to keep every bug from going through the entire clan!

I keep the toothbrushes in the medicine cabinet and teach everyone to lower the lid before flushing because of the possibility of toilet water aerosolization. I also try to teach (not too successfully yet) how to wash hands without spraying toilet germs everywhere, using the forearm to pump the soap and to open the tap. And everyone dries their hands with their own towel.

The movement of minimalism as a freeing habit of life is gaining a wider appreciation, even among secular families. Many people who had the experience of travelling around the world while they were young with everything they needed to live in a backpack appreciate that they had it far easier than travelers who were lugging around more stuff than they needed. IOW, your children are not going to find that only kids from large families have ever heard of such a thing.

I agree totally. Minimalism can be freeing and wonderful whether you are in a family of 20 or a single person. I know that not everyone is drawn to it, but for those that are, it is more of a necessary aspect of their lifestyle, for the sake of sanity and peace.

 

[jmjZelie]

How do mothers of many closely spaced children cope with the sleep deprivation during the baby years? Or if you don’t experience sleep deprivation then, why is that the case?

I am very sleep deprived. I have been for years now. It is a chronic thing. When it becomes acute, then I go to bed early (as soon as kids are in bed) for several nights in a row and my husband lets me sleep in one morning a weekend for a while, until I bounce back. Also, paradoxically, getting up and out for some fresh air and exercise and sunshine is enough to take the edge of my exhaustion. I also try to cultivate good sleep habits: darkened room, fan for noise and coolness, no caffeine after 4pm, cup of chamomile or peppermint tea before bed, strictly limit alcohol consumption, etc.
I also co sleep with nursing babies, for as long as they still need overnight nursings. Not total bed sharing. But intermittent bed sharing and crib at bedside as needed for nursing as much as the baby needs and sprawling and sleeping hard as much as I need.
And I try to have a sense of humor about it all. I will sleep when I am dead.

For reference: my children are 10, almost 8, 5, 2.5 and 1. Our closest spacing is in our youngest three, 18mo between two youngest, and 2y between second youngest and middle child.

 

[MomaMary8]

How do mothers of many closely spaced children cope with the sleep deprivation during the baby years? Or if you don’t experience sleep deprivation then, why is that the case?

Oh, I’m sleep deprived! I’ve just gotten used to it I know my limits, I rest when I can. It is amazing what a 15 minute nap can do! When I had just littles, I enforced nap/quiet time. I do fondly recalling telling my oldest it was because I needed the nap but he could quietly look at a book if he wanted. Nursing sessions often gave me a quick rest leading to an energy boost. Now that I have older kids and constant noise in the house I’m sort of looking forward to the late night nursing sessions with the new baby. Nursing in peace and quiet, no interuptions, no one asking for a drink…ahhhhh. I’m actually longing for those nights again. Crazy, isn’t it? I’ll still stock up on Diet Coke for my 3:00 pm caffeine boost to get me through the end of the day.

Okay I saw a mention of Irish twins, my two youngest sisters are two days less than a year apart and I have a niece and nephew that are 10 months apart say Mother same father for both cases

#'s 3 & 4 were Irish twins for me.

 

[bitterhope]

Sleep deprived–not even sure I know what it’s like to not be sleep deprived. My closest are the first five. When I brought the baby (#5) home I had a newborn, year old twins, two year old and a 3 year old. Since I nurse my kids and my husband is gone so much I co sleep. We pile into the bed, I read to the bigger ones after prayers and nurse the littlest one. When I have a newborn I move to my own room after the older ones are asleep. I don’t like little babies in bed with bigger kids. Once mine are asleep they don’t wake up unless they are sick or have nightmares. I think God is good that way to me. The kids naturally start going to bed alone around age 3 or 4. If I’m extremely sleep deprived and my husband is home he is awesome at putting me to bed. He will literally carry me to bed and rub my feet until I fall asleep because at times I’m so tired I can’t fall asleep on my own. If he’s not home I find a quick 10 minute cat nap sitting in the couch while my kids play or watch TV revives me even more than a long nap. My kids joke even now that they are big that if mom turns on a movie it means she’s going to take a nap.

 

[jmjZelie]

I don’t have a large family (at least on earth) but they are closely spaced together. I am blessed to naturally handle sleep deprivation fairly well. That’s probably been the biggest thing. Second has been insisting on nap/rest time, even as the kids get older. As a PP mentioned, that’s for me, not them.

Unlike most, I tend to handle nights on my own. My husband is a heavy sleeper and in the time it takes him to wake up enough and unfold a diaper, I can have the baby changed and reswaddled. And I’m a light enough sleeper that I’m going to be awake the whole time regardless.

And, finally, when I’m not pregnant, I drink a lot of caffeine.

I think I handle sleep deprivation really well, objectively speaking. I probably need to give myself more credit for that. But I always wish I could do better.

I always handle the overnight stuff with the baby on my own, too, for similar reasons. However, for the older children, if they wake up with a nightmare then I ask my husband to help out with that about half the time. Potty accidents or illnesses causing middle of the night wake ups are my wheelhouse, though. I’ve got that down to a science and I always jump out of bed to get that child cleaned up and snuggled safe and sound back in their bed. I cannot stay abed if I know a child needs mummy’s TLC and expertise.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

From personal observation, I see a trap in choosing a large family by default because they ‘don’t like NFP’ or it ‘didn’t work for them’. One of the school mums I was friends with had adopted a similar approach ie. transposed a quiverfull approach over a failure of periodic abstinence. They have 8 children, my daughter being friends with the 2nd youngest.

My friend in latter years became impatient to get on with her calling (she is a psychologist and a very good one) and ended up letting the younger ones raise themselves in many ways. This has resulted in some resentment in those younger ones that the older ones don’t experience. My friend had ended up having a hysterectomy when she was miscarrying the 9th child from an unstable womb, which she was privately relieved about. But the failure to master periodic abstinence had been a bit of a curse in those years when she would naturally have chosen to finish the family.

Large families chosen as a primary vocation though and not by default of some other failure… are enviable examples of family life though.

I don’t agree with blaming family size when parents make choices that affect children negatively. There are parents of smaller families that have decided to put their career before their family, it doesn’t mean that those children weren’t meant to be there, it might just mean the parents are not prioritizing as they should. From the outside you cannot say that this family could discern they should have “naturally chosen to finish the family” earlier on. NFP is not required for a marriage, it isn’t something a family has to like or have work for them. Maybe a family will never use it. Maybe they will think they have a serious reason, attempt to use it with difficulty, and realize the reason wasn’t serious enough… and then end up with a large family. That isn’t a “trap”, it isn’t a “failure”. Sex between spouses is good, a renewal of the sacrament, and children are blessings. A couple only needs reasons to avoid, not to welcome children.

 

[jmjZelie]

I don’t agree with blaming family size when parents make choices that affect children negatively. There are parents of smaller families that have decided to put their career before their family, it doesn’t mean that those children weren’t meant to be there, it might just mean the parents are not prioritizing as they should. From the outside you cannot say that this family could discern they should have “naturally chosen to finish the family” earlier on. NFP is not required for a marriage, it isn’t something a family has to like or have work for them. Maybe a family will never use it. Maybe they will think they have a serious reason, attempt to use it with difficulty, and realize the reason wasn’t serious enough… and then end up with a large family. That isn’t a “trap”, it isn’t a “failure”. Sex between spouses is good, a renewal of the sacrament, and children are blessings. A couple only needs reasons to avoid, not to welcome children.

Such “beautiful” thoughts you have expressed here, lifeisbeautiful! This really gets to the heart of my internal conflict. I don’t need serious reasons to want a large family or to have another baby. I would only need serious reasons if I wanted to use NFP to avoid those things. Just because I don’t like NFP and don’t want to do it, is not a moral failing or a character flaw in my part. Truth be told, I had been worried about that. I hear so much about people “failing at NFP” because they “can’t control themselves”. I think I had internalized those judgements and speculations and directed them towards myself when I struggle with the internal conflict of NFP. Thankfully, my husband is content to follow my instincts on this one, and support me in whatever outcome God may provide for our choices. Whether God blesses us with another baby someday or not, I think it is good to know that I can feel confident in following my instincts on this.

 

[Xantippe]

Such “beautiful” thoughts you have expressed here, lifeisbeautiful! This really gets to the heart of my internal conflict. I don’t need serious reasons to want a large family or to have another baby. I would only need serious reasons if I wanted to use NFP to avoid those things. Just because I don’t like NFP and don’t want to do it, is not a moral failing or a character flaw in my part. Truth be told, I had been worried about that. I hear so much about people “failing at NFP” because they “can’t control themselves”. I think I had internalized those judgements and speculations and directed them towards myself when I struggle with the internal conflict of NFP. Thankfully, my husband is content to follow my instincts on this one, and support me in whatever outcome God may provide for our choices. Whether God blesses us with another baby someday or not, I think it is good to know that I can feel confident in following my instincts on this.

Weren’t you really struggling very recently?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=983180

 

[bitterhope]

I don’t agree with blaming family size when parents make choices that affect children negatively. There are parents of smaller families that have decided to put their career before their family, it doesn’t mean that those children weren’t meant to be there, it might just mean the parents are not prioritizing as they should. From the outside you cannot say that this family could discern they should have “naturally chosen to finish the family” earlier on. NFP is not required for a marriage, it isn’t something a family has to like or have work for them. Maybe a family will never use it. Maybe they will think they have a serious reason, attempt to use it with difficulty, and realize the reason wasn’t serious enough… and then end up with a large family. That isn’t a “trap”, it isn’t a “failure”. Sex between spouses is good, a renewal of the sacrament, and children are blessings. A couple only needs reasons to avoid, not to welcome children.

This is exactly what I have tried to find the words to say many times. Thank you very much for writing this

 

[bitterhope]

Weren’t you really struggling very recently?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=983180

My suspicions are the struggles she has had are more to do with external pressures put upon mothers, especially moms with more than 2 or 3, than with anything else. When I finally let go of the feelings that I was a failure and irresponsible, most of my struggles with parenting began to subside. Motherhood became so much easier, more fulfilling, joyful and rewarding than I ever knew it could be. I became more relaxed and easy going. I started to see that the craziness in my life just made it more beautiful.

 

[LongingSoul]

I don’t agree with blaming family size when parents make choices that affect children negatively. There are parents of smaller families that have decided to put their career before their family, it doesn’t mean that those children weren’t meant to be there, it might just mean the parents are not prioritizing as they should. From the outside you cannot say that this family could discern they should have “naturally chosen to finish the family” earlier on. NFP is not required for a marriage, it isn’t something a family has to like or have work for them. Maybe a family will never use it. Maybe they will think they have a serious reason, attempt to use it with difficulty, and realize the reason wasn’t serious enough… and then end up with a large family. That isn’t a “trap”, it isn’t a “failure”. Sex between spouses is good, a renewal of the sacrament, and children are blessings. A couple only needs reasons to avoid, not to welcome children.

The truth of it is that there hides in parts of the Church the false belief that Catholicism holds quiverfull thinking higher than ‘responsible parenthood’ ie responsible parenthood which consider a range of factors that impact on couples capacity to meet the basic needs of all their children… physical, emotional, spiritual, educational. That was what Pope Francis addressed by his January plane interview…

“I believe that openness to life conditions the sacrament of matrimony. A man cannot give the sacrament to the woman, and the woman give it to him, if they are not in agreement on this point to be open to life,” Pope Francis said.

During a Jan. 19 press conference aboard Philippine Airlines flight PR 8010, two of 10 questions posed to Pope Francis referred to population growth and birth control.

Asked by a German journalist if the Church would open up to birth control as a means of population control and limiting poverty, he said that the openness to life of a married couple means “responsible parenthood.”

“The key word … and the one the Church always uses, and I do too, is ‘responsible parenthood.’ How do we do this? With dialogue,” said Pope Francis.

He said that each person should work with his pastor to carry this out. He said later that Churches have marriage groups, experts and pastors, adding, “I know so many ways out there that are licit and that have helped this.”

The Pope illustrated an example of “irresponsibility”: a pregnant woman he met recently, already with seven children, each born by caesarean-section.

“But does she want to leave seven orphans?” he asked. “This is to tempt God.”

Her response could be, “No, I trust in God,” added Pope Francis.

“But God gives you methods to be responsible,” he continued. “Some think that, and excuse the word, in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits.”

“No, responsible parenthood,” he repeated emphatically.

It is a thing, this agenda of quiverfull, anti NFPism and judgement of others as being less holy. It does exist in the subscript of some quarters of Catholicism and it does have undue influence on some Catholics parenting decisions.

 

[jmjZelie]

Weren’t you really struggling very recently?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=983180

Yes. I was. I was given a tentative diagnosis of depression and referred to a counselor. I declined medication at that time. I started working on my own with cognitive behavioral therapy workbooks and have had a few appts with a counselor. She has mostly been encouraging me to keep going with my workbooks and CBT exercises, and has been very pleased with my progress. We both believe that this was a temporary crisis due to circumstances and unresolved issues from my past. I have responded very well to this process of CBT and intend to make this a regular part of my life, as it dovetails quite nicely with Catholic spirituality. I feel very thankful to have been given such a powerful psychological tool, and I believe that God has brought me through this crisis to test and strengthen me and to answer some constant prayers that I had been praying earnestly, albeit in a surprising way.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes. I was. I was given a tentative diagnosis of depression and referred to a counselor. I declined medication at that time. I started working on my own with cognitive behavioral therapy workbooks and have had a few appts with a counselor. She has mostly been encouraging me to keep going with my workbooks and CBT exercises, and has been very pleased with my progress. We both believe that this was a temporary crisis due to circumstances and unresolved issues from my past. I have responded very well to this process of CBT and intend to make this a regular part of my life, as it dovetails quite nicely with Catholic spirituality. I feel very thankful to have been given such a powerful psychological tool, and I believe that God has brought me through this crisis to test and strengthen me and to answer some constant prayers that I had been praying earnestly, albeit in a surprising way.

Very good!

 

[jmjZelie]

My suspicions are the struggles she has had are more to do with external pressures put upon mothers, especially moms with more than 2 or 3, than with anything else. When I finally let go of the feelings that I was a failure and irresponsible, most of my struggles with parenting began to subside. Motherhood became so much easier, more fulfilling, joyful and rewarding than I ever knew it could be. I became more relaxed and easy going. I started to see that the craziness in my life just made it more beautiful.

Yes. This is very true for me as well. And some of the encouraging messages you sent me helped me greatly during my worst moments of struggling. I started realizing that I can bring my little loaves and fishes to Jesus, and that He can multiply my little offerings, and make up for my lack, and provide abundantly for our family. I don’t need to bear the weight of the world on my shoulders. He has already done that, and all He wants me to do is to take up my little cross daily, and walk with Him and just be faithful.

 

[jmjZelie]

The truth of it is that there hides in parts of the Church the false belief that Catholicism holds quiverfull thinking higher than ‘responsible parenthood’ ie responsible parenthood which consider a range of factors that impact on couples capacity to meet the basic needs of all their children… physical, emotional, spiritual, educational. That was what Pope Francis addressed by his January plane interview…

“I believe that openness to life conditions the sacrament of matrimony. A man cannot give the sacrament to the woman, and the woman give it to him, if they are not in agreement on this point to be open to life,” Pope Francis said.

During a Jan. 19 press conference aboard Philippine Airlines flight PR 8010, two of 10 questions posed to Pope Francis referred to population growth and birth control.

Asked by a German journalist if the Church would open up to birth control as a means of population control and limiting poverty, he said that the openness to life of a married couple means “responsible parenthood.”

“The key word … and the one the Church always uses, and I do too, is ‘responsible parenthood.’ How do we do this? With dialogue,” said Pope Francis.

He said that each person should work with his pastor to carry this out. He said later that Churches have marriage groups, experts and pastors, adding, “I know so many ways out there that are licit and that have helped this.”

The Pope illustrated an example of “irresponsibility”: a pregnant woman he met recently, already with seven children, each born by caesarean-section.

“But does she want to leave seven orphans?” he asked. “This is to tempt God.”

Her response could be, “No, I trust in God,” added Pope Francis.

“But God gives you methods to be responsible,” he continued. “Some think that, and excuse the word, in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits.”

“No, responsible parenthood,” he repeated emphatically.

It is a thing, this agenda of quiverfull, anti NFPism and judgement of others as being less holy. It does exist in the subscript of some quarters of Catholicism and it does have undue influence on some Catholics parenting decisions.

I really am kind of sad that you mention this in this thread. Our Holy Father was hurtful to mothers of large families (especially those of us who have had C-sections) when he publicly criticized this poor mother. You probably don’t realize this, but this interview with Pope Francis is already being used against mothers of large families, and especially his later, and more pointed, comment that “three is enough”. Whatever he was referring to and whatever his intentions, it has nothing to do with this thread or any of the mothers here and I really don’t think it is relevant. I sincerely hope that we can focus upon the positive in this thread, and let go of judgementalism against Catholic parents who have large families as irresponsible.

 

[bitterhope]

The truth of it is that there hides in parts of the Church the false belief that Catholicism holds quiverfull thinking higher than ‘responsible parenthood’ ie responsible parenthood which consider a range of factors that impact on couples capacity to meet the basic needs of all their children… physical, emotional, spiritual, educational. That was what Pope Francis addressed by his January plane interview…

“I believe that openness to life conditions the sacrament of matrimony. A man cannot give the sacrament to the woman, and the woman give it to him, if they are not in agreement on this point to be open to life,” Pope Francis said.

During a Jan. 19 press conference aboard Philippine Airlines flight PR 8010, two of 10 questions posed to Pope Francis referred to population growth and birth control.

Asked by a German journalist if the Church would open up to birth control as a means of population control and limiting poverty, he said that the openness to life of a married couple means “responsible parenthood.”

“The key word … and the one the Church always uses, and I do too, is ‘responsible parenthood.’ How do we do this? With dialogue,” said Pope Francis.

He said that each person should work with his pastor to carry this out. He said later that Churches have marriage groups, experts and pastors, adding, “I know so many ways out there that are licit and that have helped this.”

The Pope illustrated an example of “irresponsibility”: a pregnant woman he met recently, already with seven children, each born by caesarean-section.

“But does she want to leave seven orphans?” he asked. “This is to tempt God.”

Her response could be, “No, I trust in God,” added Pope Francis.

“But God gives you methods to be responsible,” he continued. “Some think that, and excuse the word, in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits.”

“No, responsible parenthood,” he repeated emphatically.

It is a thing, this agenda of quiverfull, anti NFPism and judgement of others as being less holy. It does exist in the subscript of some quarters of Catholicism and it does have undue influence on some Catholics parenting decisions.

There are also those Catholics that believe if a couple chooses not to use NFP to limit their family that they are wrong. Or couples that find NFP not useful in limiting their families as not trying hard enough to master the various methods. Or couples that find abstinence their only option in avoiding pregnancy and therefore deciding to just accept whatever children come or abstain completely as scrupulous (I’ve actually been told this about my husband and I).

As far as I know, NFP works well for couples that God agrees their reasons are just and for couples whose desire to limit their family matches God’s desire for their family. I don’t think it matters as long as these couples aren’t just selfish and those couples care well four the children they have.

The truth is, the way Pope Francis worded his response is quite offensive to me. Catholic mothers are not like rabbits simply because they choose to have children with their husband. And still no one, even the pope, has answered what a couple is supposed to do if NFP isn’t working for them. No one seems to acknowledge that for many people, NFP means having many unplanned babies through no fault of their own. Abstaining completely is destructive to most marriages. Yes some of us can pull it off if both spouses are willing, but it is not possible if both parties aren’t in agreement. What suggestions are there for couples faced with an inability to use NFP and unwilling to live as siblings instead of spouses? Should the learn to accept the vocation of parenting a large family, use birth control, get sterilized, be resentful, or what? I chose accepting my vocation. My prayer is other moms do as well.

 

[Xantippe]

I really am kind of sad that you mention this in this thread. Our Holy Father was hurtful to mothers of large families (especially those of us who have had C-sections) when he publicly criticized this poor mother. You probably don’t realize this, but this interview with Pope Francis is already being used against mothers of large families, and especially his later, and more pointed, comment that “three is enough”. Whatever he was referring to and whatever his intentions, it has nothing to do with this thread or any of the mothers here and I really don’t think it is relevant. I sincerely hope that we can focus upon the positive in this thread, and let go of judgementalism against Catholic parents who have large families as irresponsible.

I’m having a really hard time googling up a reputable source on the “three is enough” quote. Do you have a good link that isn’t just web discussion?

 

[jmjZelie]

I’m having a really hard time googling up a reputable source on the “three is enough” quote. Do you have a good link that isn’t just web discussion?

Hmmm, it has been quite a while, so I will see what I can find.