Large Families on Purpose

[Xantippe]

jmjzelie, providentialism is not actually a Catholic idea. I think that in the US there is some cross pollination between the Protestant Evangelical ideal of the quiverful movement and some newish Catholics, but traditionally ‘openness to life’ for Catholics is much more connected to rejecting contraception (including onanism) than too a purpose breeding mentality. Of course some people love large families and take a route of providence… but that isn’t a philosophy of providentialism per se.

I think the main thing is to not allow yourself to be guilt tripped by any group. Providentialists, radical breastfeeding associations etc. Be attentive to Gods will for you, your marriage and family and what you are good at and happy in doing.

Most of all, it doesn’t make sense for all the women in the world to be perpetual breeders as the sole role of women unless they are physically unhealthy enough. It makes much more sense that couples have a unique vocation based on the many gifts God has given each to make the world a better place.

That’s my view.

Yes.

There’s a quote I really like that normally I use for marriage between very unlike people: if you were exactly the same, one of you would be unnecessary.

But, come to think of it, that applies to couples and families as well. If all families were supposed to be exactly the same in terms of size, goals and vocation, what would be the point in having more than one such family? It would be like having a hundred of the same Pokemon card or Precious Moments figurine.

 

[jmjZelie]

I’m sorry I’ve offended you. You introduced the ideological position of ‘providentialism’ which is not a Catholic ‘default’ as some on this site claim. I was speaking in terms of ideologies and ideologues in a way that Pope Francis had also clumsily tried to define a false ideology by using the term ‘breed like the rabbits’. I will back out. Sorry to have entered into the conversation.

LongingSoul,

I did not ask you to leave this conversation. I have happily corresponded with you elsewhere on CAF and I value your (name removed by moderator)ut, even if we don’t always absolutely agree. I didn’t know if providentialism was the right term, so I clarified specifically what I am talking about. I have heard of Catholic providentialists, but I am not sure that is precisely the right term for what I am asking about, especially since I am one of those very fertile women and making a choice to NOT do NFP has exactly the same outcome of trying to conceive on purpose.
My only objection was to your terms used to describe women who have larger families, no matter the reasons that underlie that circumstance. Whether they are Catholic providentialists, or Quiverful Protestants, or “NFP doesn’t work for us” Catholics or secular people who just adore kids (God bless them!), no woman should be called a breeder. It really does sting and it makes us feel subhuman.
But I like you LongingSoul, and your posting here at CAF. so I don’t want to just run you off. I hope you will return and perhaps weigh in on the questions at hand, and tell me if there is a better term for those who let Divine Providence decide the size of their family (for the most part).

 

[LongingSoul]

LongingSoul,

I did not ask you to leave this conversation. I have happily corresponded with you elsewhere on CAF and I value your (name removed by moderator)ut, even if we don’t always absolutely agree. I didn’t know if providentialism was the right term, so I clarified specifically what I am talking about. I have heard of Catholic providentialists, but I am not sure that is precisely the right term for what I am asking about, especially since I am one of those very fertile women and making a choice to NOT do NFP has exactly the same outcome of trying to conceive on purpose.
My only objection was to your terms used to describe women who have larger families, no matter the reasons that underlie that circumstance. Whether they are Catholic providentialists, or Quiverful Protestants, or “NFP doesn’t work for us” Catholics or secular people who just adore kids (God bless them!), no woman should be called a breeder. It really does sting and it makes us feel subhuman.
But I like you LongingSoul, and your posting here at CAF. so I don’t want to just run you off. I hope you will return and perhaps weigh in on the questions at hand, and tell me if there is a better term for those who let Divine Providence decide the size of their family (for the most part).

I used the term to distinguish an ideology from a vocation. The Church is well aware that populations are influenced by many different relevant factors like cultural and environmental conditions. After the 2nd World War, people weren’t told to have a lot of children… the baby boomers generation was a natural, organic evolution. Contrast that with the ideological breeding policies of Hitler who wanted to create a superior race of Germans. Or to China and the one-child-policy aimed at manipulating their population. Or Romania’s Ceausescu and his so called ‘forced breeding’ policy. The children of this policy were referred to as the Decreteii … the children of the decree. Providentialists have a similar sense of the superiority of their class or creed which impacts on their decision to reproduce. These are unnatural programs inconsistent with natural law.

Ideological breeding is not a pretty or healthy thing for society. The decisions about the family makeup should be rightly left to the couple themselves and that’s what the Church teaches. It respects the personal conditions and wider cultural and ‘social indications’ that contribute to the couples decisions.

So in no way do I refer to individual families when I use the term breeding. I am addressing the ideologues and their false ideologies only.

 

[Xantippe]

This is really helpful, Kelfa. Thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to carefully answer my questions. The fact that you have had clear instincts in both directions but at different times is interesting.

For my husband and I, we are not really certain about anything right now. Mainly, our marriage is better when we don’t do NFP. When we first practiced NFP after our third child was born, and again after our fourth, we only did so for a few months until the child was old enough that conception was not worrisome. We were excited about the idea of pregnancy again. NFP for those few months was not really very hard on us at all.
This time around, it is horrible on me. It hasn’t been very long that I have had a return on fertility, but the uncertainty and the abstinence has been incredibly difficult. My husband has been doing fine, he says it is easier for him now that he is a little older. But for me the opposite is true. I struggle with self-hateful lines of thinking, trying to manage the psychological and physical burden.
It has made me wonder if God is using this trial to guide me away from what He does not want for me or my marriage. I have felt so pressured to use NFP, not by my husband, but by a combination of circumstance (housing, transportation, finding a new OB and building a new support system after our cross-country move, etc) and other people’s opinions (the people who tell us we should be done or who stop and stare as we pass by). The possibility of needing another C-section (I had my first C-section with my last child) concerns me, mostly because of the recovery time. My husband, on the other hand, has left this decision entirely up to me. If I want to be open to another baby, fine. If I want to practice NFP to avoid, fine. He only cares about doing what is healthiest and what will genuinely make me happy.
So there are just reasons to avoid using NFP, but I really don’t want to. I would happily welcome another baby if God sends us one, but I don’t want to try on purpose. But I also know that I have a history of getting pregnant on the first cycle.
Every single one of our questions has a satisfactory answer, yet I still feel guilty about just winging it. I am still trying to root out the conditioning of my upbringing, where my dad taught me that husbands do not want children but merely tolerate them for the sake of keeping their wives from nagging them. I am wondering if my inhibitions have something to do with that poison.
Sorry for such a rambling reply. But that is a peek into the confusion that I am experiencing about the contradictory goals and desires that go on in my head!

Here’s another issue to consider:

“According to the Mayo Clinic, recent studies have tied a pregnancy within 12 months of giving birth to certain health complications, including peeling away of the placenta from the inner wall of the uterus, the placenta attaching to the lower part of uterine wall and covering the cervix, and an increased risk for autism in second-born children. Pregnancy within 18 months of giving birth is also associated with low birth weight, small size for gestational age, and preterm birth.”

medicaldaily.com/pregnancy-spacing-mothers-should-wait-least-18-months-between-pregnancies-avoid-329932

Edited to add: Come to think of it, a couple of those things (like the placental abruption and placenta previa) may be the sort of complications that lead to c-section, which could present problems for later pregnancies. It might be worthwhile to talk to your OB about pregnancy spacing and ask if he or she sees any medical benefits to delay in your particular case (making it clear that you want more children). When I’ve talked to my OB in the last few years (being a late 30-something/early 40-something), she has been firmly in the sooner-rather-than-later camp.

 

[jmjZelie]

I used the term to distinguish an ideology from a vocation. The Church is well aware that populations are influenced by many different relevant factors like cultural and environmental conditions. After the 2nd World War, people weren’t told to have a lot of children… the baby boomers generation was a natural, organic evolution. Contrast that with the ideological breeding policies of Hitler who wanted to create a superior race of Germans. Or to China and the one-child-policy aimed at manipulating their population. Or Romania’s Ceausescu and his so called ‘forced breeding’ policy. The children of this policy were referred to as the Decreteii … the children of the decree. Providentialists have a similar sense of the superiority of their class or creed which impacts on their decision to reproduce. These are unnatural programs inconsistent with natural law.

Ideological breeding is not a pretty or healthy thing for society. The decisions about the family makeup should be rightly left to the couple themselves and that’s what the Church teaches. It respects the personal conditions and wider cultural and ‘social indications’ that contribute to the couples decisions.

So in no way do I refer to individual families when I use the term breeding. I am addressing the ideologues and their false ideologies only.

So what would you use to describe the mindset of Catholic families who really just think it is best for THEM (capitalized merely to demonstrate the personal and not ideological nature of the view) to continue to be open to having more children, even when it is a situation that is not perfectly planned or absolutely ideal? As an example, if we have another baby, if we wanted to go anywhere as a family that required a vehicle, we would have to caravan. I could fit myself and all the children, but my husband wouldn’t fit. So he and I have decided, because I don’t want to have any debt, to just caravan if it comes to that, and to save up money to buy a large passenger van outright, rather than financing anything. That is not perfectly ideal, and yet I don’t really care. That is just one of the ways in which we have satisfactory answers, even though other people think we might just be off our rockers. We just really can’t seem to find any compelling enough reasons to make the sacrifice of NFP, and we would be happy to have another baby anyway. But do we really need paragraphs to discuss this type of mindset, or is there a term already in use that is an acceptable shorthand for a Catholic couple that really just wants to see what God wants to do with their family size?

 

[jmjZelie]

Here’s another issue to consider:

“According to the Mayo Clinic, recent studies have tied a pregnancy within 12 months of giving birth to certain health complications, including peeling away of the placenta from the inner wall of the uterus, the placenta attaching to the lower part of uterine wall and covering the cervix, and an increased risk for autism in second-born children. Pregnancy within 18 months of giving birth is also associated with low birth weight, small size for gestational age, and preterm birth.”

medicaldaily.com/pregnancy-spacing-mothers-should-wait-least-18-months-between-pregnancies-avoid-329932

Edited to add: Come to think of it, a couple of those things (like the placental abruption and placenta previa) may be the sort of complications that lead to c-section, which could present problems for later pregnancies. It might be worthwhile to talk to your OB about pregnancy spacing and ask if he or she sees any medical benefits to delay in your particular case (making it clear that you want more children). When I’ve talked to my OB in the last few years (being a late 30-something/early 40-something), she has been firmly in the sooner-rather-than-later camp.

I did talk to my OB before I moved. I told her that I wasn’t intending to purposefully add to my family at the present time, but that I might change my mind in the future, and that I wanted to know how long was the recommended window between pregnancies following a C-section. She seemed really surprised to hear me asking that question (she knows I have a late return of fertility anyway and that I am Catholic and don’t use birth control). But she said that I only needed to wait about a year, if possible, to give my uterus enough time to heal. After that, she saw no medical reason to avoid. Well, as it turns out, it took longer than a year for my fertility to return anyway. I do need to find a new OBGYN though. Our family practice doctor handles GYN stuff, but I would need to get a referral for OB stuff. I am in a great healthcare system now though, so I have no worries about that. My family has had better health care since moving to Cali than we have ever had before. And I am already looking at 16 months spacing, and am in my later-middle 30s.

Thanks for giving me good food for thought, Xantippe!

 

[Xantippe]

I did talk to my OB before I moved. I told her that I wasn’t intending to purposefully add to my family at the present time, but that I might change my mind in the future, and that I wanted to know how long was the recommended window between pregnancies following a C-section. She seemed really surprised to hear me asking that question (she knows I have a late return of fertility anyway and that I am Catholic and don’t use birth control). But she said that I only needed to wait about a year, if possible, to give my uterus enough time to heal. After that, she saw no medical reason to avoid. Well, as it turns out, it took longer than a year for my fertility to return anyway. I do need to find a new OBGYN though. Our family practice doctor handles GYN stuff, but I would need to get a referral for OB stuff. I am in a great healthcare system now though, so I have no worries about that. My family has had better health care since moving to Cali than we have ever had before. And I am already looking at 16 months spacing, and am in my later-middle 30s.

Thanks for giving me good food for thought, Xantippe!

Very good!

There’s probably a sort of seesaw:

–on the one hand, there’s the Mayo stuff about the risks of tight spacing

–on the other hand, with a tight spacing, you’re younger than you would be with a bigger spacing and hence automatically lower risk

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I’m sorry I’ve offended you. You introduced the ideological position of ‘providentialism’ which is not a Catholic ‘default’ as some on this site claim. I was speaking in terms of ideologies and ideologues in a way that Pope Francis had also clumsily tried to define a false ideology by using the term ‘breed like the rabbits’. I will back out. Sorry to have entered into the conversation.

If I am understanding your definition for ‘Providentialism’ correctly, I have never seen anyone on here claim Providentialism should be the default.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Very good!

There’s probably a sort of seesaw:

–on the one hand, there’s the Mayo stuff about the risks of tight spacing

–on the other hand, with a tight spacing, you’re younger than you would be with a bigger spacing and hence automatically lower risk

It would be interesting to see the probability of those risks of tight spacing (I know my kids definitely didn’t end up being small/low weight). There are so many factors in pregnancy!

 

[Kelfa28]

Just curious…

Are you able to spend time in adoration?

We are lucky to have it on a continuous basis at my parish. Plus there is a chapel walking distance from my school that does it continuous.

Especially if you can get there alone. It’s helped me tremendously and has allowed me to be at peace with the decisions I’ve been making.

Especially when CAF gets into my head in a very negative way and I start questioning everything.

I’d recommend getting there if you can. It might really help you sort somethings out because your answers are from Him.

Not that I take my husbands advice first over God but my husband is where yours is…he just wants me happy and healthy and will support whatever I need to do to get there. So, if I need to figure out something specific…I try to get it to the source.

Being in a quiet place with Jesus is very, very helpful for me.

 

[jlc2k2]

So what would you use to describe the mindset of Catholic families who really just think it is best for THEM (capitalized merely to demonstrate the personal and not ideological nature of the view) to continue to be open to having more children, even when it is a situation that is not perfectly planned or absolutely ideal? As an example, if we have another baby, if we wanted to go anywhere as a family that required a vehicle, we would have to caravan. I could fit myself and all the children, but my husband wouldn’t fit. So he and I have decided, because I don’t want to have any debt, to just caravan if it comes to that, and to save up money to buy a large passenger van outright, rather than financing anything. That is not perfectly ideal, and yet I don’t really care. That is just one of the ways in which we have satisfactory answers, even though other people think we might just be off our rockers. We just really can’t seem to find any compelling enough reasons to make the sacrifice of NFP, and we would be happy to have another baby anyway. But do we really need paragraphs to discuss this type of mindset, or is there a term already in use that is an acceptable shorthand for a Catholic couple that really just wants to see what God wants to do with their family size?

Perhaps a more neutral phrasing would be “not trying not preventing” (NTNP). That would distinguish from trying to avoid or trying to conceive. I’ve seen it used on other sites.

 

[jmjZelie]

Just curious…

Are you able to spend time in adoration?

We are lucky to have it on a continuous basis at my parish. Plus there is a chapel walking distance from my school that does it continuous.

Especially if you can get there alone. It’s helped me tremendously and has allowed me to be at peace with the decisions I’ve been making.

Especially when CAF gets into my head in a very negative way and I start questioning everything.

I’d recommend getting there if you can. It might really help you sort somethings out because your answers are from Him.

Not that I take my husbands advice first over God but my husband is where yours is…he just wants me happy and healthy and will support whatever I need to do to get there. So, if I need to figure out something specific…I try to get it to the source.

Being in a quiet place with Jesus is very, very helpful for me.

I can’t get to an Adoration chapel. There are not any chapels open to non-scheduled adorers unless I were to drive to another city.

Since that is the case now (it didn’t used to be, I used to be able to go to Adoration whenever I needed and had the code to get in the chapel) I have been keeping a holy hour at home every morning. I have to get up at 4am to do it, but it is wonderful and peaceful. I spend time in prayer and lectio divina.

That is one of the reasons that I am wondering if God is leading me, because maybe I have been choosing natural prudence OVER His perfect will. There have been many times that God has led me by what desires and understandings He has placed in my heart. They aren’t always rational and logical, but looking back, they are always perfect for me and our family (not that things work out perfectly, but that whatever happens, it leads me and my family closer to Him).

But this time, while having a 6th child sounds like it would be a happy thing, to have another person in the family to love, I am not feeling a certain feeling about having another (but only with two of my five born babies did I have that certain feeling). I am however, having a strong feeling about NOT wanting to do NFP (which never happened before so strongly). It makes me sad and it has been alienating me and my husband (which also never happened before at all). I have had friends and acquaintances in the past who have reported that NFP was harmful to their particular marriage and they decided to just keep having the babies. I admire them greatly and loved spending time together when we all lived in the same town.

I have prayed over and over for God to help me understand His will, but I think I already know what it is but I am terrified to accept it. My instincts are that He wants us to accept that I am very fertile and likely to have a very large family and just let go of control. My fear is the pounding of the drum of responsible parenthood and the aversion the culture at large and within the Church have to people not practicing any form of birth control (even NFP). I think that is where I keep tripping up.

Thank you for all your help and your thoughts this morning, Kelfa!

 

[Javan]

Perhaps a more neutral phrasing would be “not trying not preventing” (NTNP). That would distinguish from trying to avoid or trying to conceive. I’ve seen it used on other sites.

That’s a wonderful way to put it, thanks for sharing!

 

[jmjZelie]

Perhaps a more neutral phrasing would be “not trying not preventing” (NTNP). That would distinguish from trying to avoid or trying to conceive. I’ve seen it used on other sites.

I have seen something like that. TTW. Trying to whatever.

I had forgotten all about that until you mentioned NTNP. Thanks for reminding me!

(Although TTW always means TTC in reality)

 

[bitterhope]

It would be interesting to see the probability of those risks of tight spacing (I know my kids definitely didn’t end up being small/low weight). There are so many factors in pregnancy!

Mine have never been small either. Even my twins were over 7 lbs a piece. None were premature. All had apgars of 9. I really think many different circumstances are grouped into specific categories that often should be in subcategories.

I know my husband and I found it much more stressful to deal with “unplanned children” if we were actively using NFP to avoid. Once we let go of trying to plan and verbally told God it was His turn to plan, we found immediate joy instead of initial fear, sadness, frustration and anger. Once we decided to just accept whatever He had in store for us, it freed up much more time for figuring out where baby will sleep, how to free up money for new baby items, how to go about adjusting schedules and routines to incorporate a new person, and all the stressful parts of new babies. Those things took less time because it was taken care of in a state of anticipation, joy, and peace instead of out of panic and full of frustration.

We have decided that before my husband leaves for deployment, we will for the first time in our marriage actually try to conceive. If it happens, wonderful!!! If it doesn’t, we will accept whatever comes after he returns home. My husband and I have talked excessively to the Army chaplains and a local parish priest about these things. None of the priests have told us that we are living a false ideology or told us that we are breeders or anything of the sort. They have all assured us that it is very much in line with the Church to not actively try to avoid (even through abstaining completely) if no compelling reasons exist. The priests have all reminded us that NFP is for just, serious, or grave circumstances and never because if outside pressure (AKA stares and comments from others). They have all reassured us that even in less than ideal situations, it is never wrong for a married couple to desire a new family member. It is not wrong to trust that God will provide as long as we do the leg work ourselves. They have assured us that it isn’t wrong to just allow God to use nature with no attempts to make one or another outcome occur. Not following a chart is not sinful. If there is nothing compelling you to avoid a child then it is more of an issue to follow the chart to avoid than it is to either ignore it or do away with it entirely.

I really think that finding a good priest in real life is going to be your best hope in finding real help in discerning where God is leading your family. Opinions of others often cloud our own judgement and can lead to resentment later on. If you decide to keep using NFP to avoid and then wish you had another baby, you could resent people who urge continuing with NFP. If you decide to quit charting and then end up with twins (or more) instead of a singleton and find yourself overwhelmed, that could lead to resentment. Please work with your husband and a priest that is willing to be an impartial voice of reason. He can help you hear God’s call within yourselves and guide you to finding the best way to answer that call.

 

[jmjZelie]

Mine have never been small either. Even my twins were over 7 lbs a piece. None were premature. All had apgars of 9. I really think many different circumstances are grouped into specific categories that often should be in subcategories.

I know my husband and I found it much more stressful to deal with “unplanned children” if we were actively using NFP to avoid. Once we let go of trying to plan and verbally told God it was His turn to plan, we found immediate joy instead of initial fear, sadness, frustration and anger. Once we decided to just accept whatever He had in store for us, it freed up much more time for figuring out where baby will sleep, how to free up money for new baby items, how to go about adjusting schedules and routines to incorporate a new person, and all the stressful parts of new babies. Those things took less time because it was taken care of in a state of anticipation, joy, and peace instead of out of panic and full of frustration.

We have decided that before my husband leaves for deployment, we will for the first time in our marriage actually try to conceive. If it happens, wonderful!!! If it doesn’t, we will accept whatever comes after he returns home. My husband and I have talked excessively to the Army chaplains and a local parish priest about these things. None of the priests have told us that we are living a false ideology or told us that we are breeders or anything of the sort. They have all assured us that it is very much in line with the Church to not actively try to avoid (even through abstaining completely) if no compelling reasons exist. The priests have all reminded us that NFP is for just, serious, or grave circumstances and never because if outside pressure (AKA stares and comments from others). They have all reassured us that even in less than ideal situations, it is never wrong for a married couple to desire a new family member. It is not wrong to trust that God will provide as long as we do the leg work ourselves. They have assured us that it isn’t wrong to just allow God to use nature with no attempts to make one or another outcome occur. Not following a chart is not sinful. If there is nothing compelling you to avoid a child then it is more of an issue to follow the chart to avoid than it is to either ignore it or do away with it entirely.

I really think that finding a good priest in real life is going to be your best hope in finding real help in discerning where God is leading your family. Opinions of others often cloud our own judgement and can lead to resentment later on. If you decide to keep using NFP to avoid and then wish you had another baby, you could resent people who urge continuing with NFP. If you decide to quit charting and then end up with twins (or more) instead of a singleton and find yourself overwhelmed, that could lead to resentment. Please work with your husband and a priest that is willing to be an impartial voice of reason. He can help you hear God’s call within yourselves and guide you to finding the best way to answer that call.

Thank you, bitterhope!

That was an amazing post!

We are unfortunately in a situation where, after a cross-country move, we do not know any priests we can make an appointment with. I miss being able to discuss concerns with a pastor. hopefully that will change soon.

And I am so glad to hear of your happy news that you and your husband have discerned a path forward as a couple.

 

[bitterhope]

Thank you, bitterhope!

That was an amazing post!

We are unfortunately in a situation where, after a cross-country move, we do not know any priests we can make an appointment with. I miss being able to discuss concerns with a pastor. hopefully that will change soon.

And I am so glad to hear of your happy news that you and your husband have discerned a path forward as a couple.

Possibly emailing your firmer pastor could help. The priest that married us has been retired for a few years, but I still email him at times. He’s the wisest man I’ve ever known so I trust him deeply. Face to face meetings are wonderful, but sometimes we have to take what we can get. If there is a priest from another area that you feel comfortable with, he would be happy to help in sure.

 

[jmjZelie]

Possibly emailing your firmer pastor could help. The priest that married us has been retired for a few years, but I still email him at times. He’s the wisest man I’ve ever known so I trust him deeply. Face to face meetings are wonderful, but sometimes we have to take what we can get. If there is a priest from another area that you feel comfortable with, he would be happy to help in sure.

Oh, I didn’t know we could do that! That would work.

 

[bitterhope]

Oh, I didn’t know we could do that! That would work.

It does no harm to contact him and ask at least. Priests tend to be busy, so if doesn’t have time you could ask him for a referral to another priest that would be able to help.

 

[Walking_Home]

Ditto — LongingSoul/Xantippe.