Large Families on Purpose

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I would like to resurrect my thread from last Advent, to see if there is anyone who would like to continue this discussion further.

I have a few more questions.

How does a person know when it is God who is leading the couple to be open to have another child, and when it is merely concupiscence and/or the “baby urge”?

How does one know if they are being virtuous in generosity in childbearing or vicious by being unwilling/unable to abstain?

This question is not about judgement or condemnation, but about discernment.

I see so many questions about NFP vs. contraception here at CAF, but I see very few questions about NFP vs. providentialism (my apologies if that is the wrong word…I can’t think of a better word to describe just living as man and wife without attempting to conceive or abstaining to avoid pregnancy). I still am not quite sure how to think Catholic about this issue.
The term “Providentialism” end with it that “ism” that implies it’s a philosophy. We don’t say “NFPism” or “contraceptionism”. Some have suggested other acronyms, and I don’t like those either. Double negatives in “Not Trying to Not Avoid” and such sounds confusing. Perhaps it’s best to describe it as you did with something like “living as man and wife without attempting to either conceive or avoid conception.”

The title of this thread doesn’t match with these newer questions of yours. Just letting things happen without trying to either avoid or conceive doesn’t equate with having a “large family on purpose”. I know you already have a large-ish family Zelie, but some may end up with no children or only one or two children while using the same approach. The average family size before the wide scale use of contraception was about 5 children, (I forget where I found that stat, but it goes back to family size from the early part of the twentieth century.) Five children isn’t exactly small, but it’s not huge either. People seem to think that if they didn’t actively try to prevent pregnancy, everyone would have a dozen or more children! Few do.

I believe you are creating a false dichotomy in some of these questions. It’s almost as if part of you may think marital relations are perhaps somehow wrong. “Vicious?” Um, not unless there’s something weird going on. A spouse who is unwilling to abstain under normal circumstances when they are alone together, but who is willing to take care of any children that may result might be neither particularly generous nor vicious. He might just be a man (or woman) who struggles with the kind of thing people have struggled with for eons and who has found a spouse who helps elevate his/her sexual desires into the proper setting within Holy Matrimony.

We’re all called to be saints, but most of us are merely average people. Not everyone wants to monitor fertility closely; I dare say, most people don’t. Some do because they have to. But some situations make monitoring a woman’s fertility particularly difficult, and avoiding pregnancy with NFP in some situations may require extended abstinence. Monitoring the return of fertility during breastfeeding and monitoring fertility around menopause are two examples of such times. At times when a woman may be less fertile but not necessarily infertile, couples may decide to “throw caution to the wind” and stop worrying about pregnancy one way or the other. Or they may even do that when they expect she’s still highly fertile. In any case, I found it rather freeing. An “unplanned” family? How incredibly counter-cultural! from this culture’s perspective. I can see why some must think this is a new idea embraced by only the young. (I feel ten years younger just writing about it!) And yet, how very normal and utterly average through the course of human history.

If a couple decides that they don’t want to worry about pregnancy one way or the other at the moment, it doesn’t mean they will automatically have a large family. Children are a gift from God. Their family may grow or He may not give them any more even if they aren’t trying to avoid pregnancy. Or some other situation(s) may happen in their lives that will call them to re-consider using NFP to avoid future pregnancy. 🤷 We don’t always know what God has planned for our future. In fact, we rarely know. We guess. We plan. We try to discern. Eventually, we discover His plans for us as our lives unfold.
 
I don’t think it’s fair to compare NFP to moderate eating. The latter is essential to good health, while the former isn’t essential to sexual discipline (in the self-control sense, obviously). It can certainly be a useful tool, but given that it hasn’t existed for more than 60 years or so, it’s not reasonable to assume that every couple until the 1950s or thereabouts had a lack of sexual self-control.

NFP is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Some tools are good in some situations, while others aren’t. A woman who really needs to avoid having children but who hasn’t had any success in that regard with any (or any combinations) of the NFP methods doesn’t need NFP; she needs to abstain. On the other hand, a family who doesn’t have just reasons to avoid, or whose reasons are on the fence between just and “meh,” might not need NFP, and may find that extended breastfeeding or some such works well for them, or they might actually need it; only they can decide. Yet another family might find NFP to be an effective tool for postponing or avoiding children, or for sexual self-control, or even as a sort of penance (ie, abstaining from sex for a time by mutual consent as per St. Paul).

Likewise, making one decision usually involves sacrificing the potential for another decision. That’s not always a bad thing, but it is realistic. So a family might decide to go ahead and conceive another child, but in doing so, they know that this means postponing some trip or expense as far as possible. A family might decide to avoid another child for a time, and accept the sexual distance that NFP does bring to a lot of marriages. (A couple I know who practice NFP for a life-or-death reason often have to abstain for 3+ months at a time due to wonky cycles and work scheduling, which is really, really hard on a marriage.) Or a family might decide that that distancing isn’t good for their particular marriage, and knowing that they don’t have a reason that makes avoidance really necessary, say “whatever happens, happens, and that’s okay, but for us, sex is important enough in our marriage that having it more often is worth the sacrifices of another kid.” And that’s also okay.

In short, the idea that NFP is necessary in all marriages is really flawed. It’s a tool, it works well in certain areas, but it doesn’t in others…and that’s okay!
👍
Most people I know don’t change their views just because they hit a certain age. They don’t suddenly run to ABC because they’ve had enough. My mom, for instance, had children well past age 40, and she rejoices with each new grand baby or great grand baby. She also doesn’t care if anyone else shares her views so she doesn’t voice anything either way. Usually that is what happens. A lady at my parish just had her eighth child at the age of 46, and she doesn’t care whether or not more come. Another lady had her seventh at the age of 44 and is hoping for at least one more. It has been my experience that most people that feel strongly about following their conscience don’t change their views based on how easy or hard that is. If ABC is off limits and NFP doesn’t work, they either abstain or they leave it to chance regardless of their age. There are ladies on this site past 40 who also still leave it up to God. It’s not a younger couple thing at all.

Responsible parenting isn’t setting a limit on the number of kids, it’s finding the way to care for and provide for the ones you’ve got. Responsible parenting is giving your kids the best shot of success you possibly can instead of expecting them to fulfill something missing in your life. Responsible parenting is loving your children when it’s difficult instead of making them earn your affection. Parents that perfectly plan their families can be very irresponsible parents because they don’t give their child or children what is needed in the way it is needed. It has nothing to do with family size, it has a lot to do with family dynamics.
Beautiful post, Bitters.

And BTW, I’m one of those over 40’s that eschew NFP. I’ll trust God with my fertility, He’s done an awesome job so far 😃
OP here. I resurrected it because, as I said, I wanted to see if anyone wanted to continue the discussion with and because I had a few more questions to examine. There has been no fighting or anger here. I have great respect for everyone who has contributed and have thanked them sincerely.

If you don’t like the thread, that is fine. But it is an open forum and obviously some other people seem to find it interesting or helpful to discuss these teachings of thre Church and their application.

Have a good day, Convert! God bless you.
JmjZellie, I understand you are just seeking understanding, so I’d be happy to answer questions from my perspective if that would be helpful to you.
 
gardenswithkids,

I am sure you are right that the thread title is bad. I tried out so many titles and I could not settle on one that made sense and was brief enough. I decided to use that one because for me personally (and obviously for several others in this thread) not actively trying to prevent or avoid pregnancy leads to quick conception, so the appearance is one of purposefully planning to have a larger family, in a culture where large families are objects of scorn. Seriously, sometimes it seems that people think I am having my large family at them.

This is not about a philosophical movement, and it is not a quest to prove that I am special or original. The reality is that I have no one else to learn from. I know that large families have existed throughout time, and that my family size is not that out of the ordinary compared to human history. But that very fact makes it all the more psychologically challenging for me as a convert. *Where are such families now? I cannot find them. *

I think, even though my title is poor, my first line of questioning is the same theme as my second line of questioning. And it is sincere questioning and trying to understand. Many of you may not know but I do not have a functional relationship with my mother. She has some mental illness and a personality disorder. And I do not have the kind of relationship with my MIL that would allow for discussion of sensitive topics such as this (and besides she is not Catholic and sees no problem with birth control or ‘alternate’ acts). So I literally have no one to talk to about any of this.

I am sorry that my thread has caused such consternation or that it has appeared that I am promoting something or acting superior or special. I haven’t meant anything by it. I think now might be the time for me to take Convert’s advice and withdraw.
 
The term “Providentialism” end with it that “ism” that implies it’s a philosophy. We don’t say “NFPism” or “contraceptionism”. Some have suggested other acronyms, and I don’t like those either. Double negatives in “Not Trying to Not Avoid” and such sounds confusing. Perhaps it’s best to describe it as you did with something like “living as man and wife without attempting to either conceive or avoid conception.”

The title of this thread doesn’t match with these newer questions of yours. Just letting things happen without trying to either avoid or conceive doesn’t equate with having a “large family on purpose”. I know you already have a large-ish family Zelie, but some may end up with no children or only one or two children while using the same approach. The average family size before the wide scale use of contraception was about 5 children, (I forget where I found that stat, but it goes back to family size from the early part of the twentieth century.) Five children isn’t exactly small, but it’s not huge either. People seem to think that if they didn’t actively try to prevent pregnancy, everyone would have a dozen or more children! Few do.

I believe you are creating a false dichotomy in some of these questions. It’s almost as if part of you may think marital relations are perhaps somehow wrong. “Vicious?” Um, not unless there’s something weird going on. A spouse who is unwilling to abstain under normal circumstances when they are alone together, but who is willing to take care of any children that may result might be neither particularly generous nor vicious. He might just be a man (or woman) who struggles with the kind of thing people have struggled with for eons and who has found a spouse who helps elevate his/her sexual desires into the proper setting within Holy Matrimony.

We’re all called to be saints, but most of us are merely average people. Not everyone wants to monitor fertility closely; I dare say, most people don’t. Some do because they have to. But some situations make monitoring a woman’s fertility particularly difficult, and avoiding pregnancy with NFP in some situations may require extended abstinence. Monitoring the return of fertility during breastfeeding and monitoring fertility around menopause are two examples of such times. At times when a woman may be less fertile but not necessarily infertile, couples may decide to “throw caution to the wind” and stop worrying about pregnancy one way or the other. Or they may even do that when they expect she’s still highly fertile. In any case, I found it rather freeing. An “unplanned” family? How incredibly counter-cultural! from this culture’s perspective. I can see why some must think this is a new idea embraced by only the young. (I feel ten years younger just writing about it!) And yet, how very normal and utterly average through the course of human history.

If a couple decides that they don’t want to worry about pregnancy one way or the other at the moment, it doesn’t mean they will automatically have a large family. Children are a gift from God. Their family may grow or He may not give them any more even after they’ve stopped trying to avoid pregnancy. Or some other situation(s) may happen in their lives that will call them to re-consider using NFP to avoid future pregnancy. 🤷 We don’t always know what God has planned for our future.
Regarding family size when doing nothing but allowing nature take it’s course–very accurate that most still won’t have huge families. The average family size in my husband’s very catholic town where “praying for a baby” simply means being intimate, the average couple has 0-4 kids in their marriage. My inlaws “prayed for a baby” for many years and ended up with two. His mom is one of 3 kids. His dad is the second of 8. Those 8 produced a total of 24 grand kids (so that is an average of 3 each). Some had no kids, some had 1 or 2, one had 9. Currently out if all the couples our age, we have the largest family. Two others have 6. Most have 2-4. They’ve been married just as long as we have. They do not use ABC or NFP. Fertility is a gift that comes in various amounts to each couple, that is very conditional on many factors, that is temporary, and it remains a mystery even to the medical professionals that spend their lives studying it. Many people are infertile and no explanation for their infertility is ever found. It is the same with those of us that are abundantly fertile. It’s a blessing but often feels like a curse to those of us that experience it. I wish more people would find the way to embrace it instead.

Not in any way do I think a couple is obligated to have as many kids as possible, I just don’t understand why so many won’t acknowledge that it is possible to enjoy motherhood. Being a mom to a large family is full of unexpected joys. We know how hard it is and we realize it isn’t for every couple and that is why God doesn’t give it to every couple. If He does bless you with these gifts, find the way to accept it with joy because God apparently sees you as capable. If He sees you as capable, He will help you make it work.
 
Most people I know don’t change their views just because they hit a certain age. They don’t suddenly run to ABC because they’ve had enough. My mom, for instance, had children well past age 40, and she rejoices with each new grand baby or great grand baby. She also doesn’t care if anyone else shares her views so she doesn’t voice anything either way. Usually that is what happens. A lady at my parish just had her eighth child at the age of 46, and she doesn’t care whether or not more come. Another lady had her seventh at the age of 44 and is hoping for at least one more. It has been my experience that most people that feel strongly about following their conscience don’t change their views based on how easy or hard that is. If ABC is off limits and NFP doesn’t work, they either abstain or they leave it to chance regardless of their age. There are ladies on this site past 40 who also still leave it up to God. It’s not a younger couple thing at all.
I think a lot of women can expect that their mid/late 40s will be gynecologically eventful. As I understand it, things often start going kablooey around then.

Hence, I can readily believe Longing Soul that providentialism gets much more difficult during those years, especially if the woman starts having a series of miscarriages. There are also a lot of other embarrassing and painful things that can start happening that women aren’t necessarily eager to talk about with people at church.

Bear in mind that Longing Soul is older than we are and hence has an older peer group and has had more opportunity than us to see how her peers weather the various seasons of life.
 
Thank you for your thoughts.

Can you elaborate about your struggles with abstinence around the 40 year mark, if that is not too personal? I am approaching 40…that might be relevant to my personal situation.

Thanks again. I have been able to think through a lot today due to your posting.
Some women experience a peak in sexual desire around that age. I can’t find a good cite right now, but as I recall, that has something to do with the hormonal changes.
 
I think a lot of women can expect that their mid/late 40s will be gynecologically eventful. As I understand it, things often start going kablooey around then.

Hence, I can readily believe Longing Soul that providentialism gets much more difficult during those years, especially if the woman starts having a series of miscarriages. There are also a lot of other embarrassing and painful things that can start happening that women aren’t necessarily eager to talk about with people at church.

Bear in mind that Longing Soul is older than we are and hence has an older peer group and has had more opportunity than us to see how her peers weather the various seasons of life.
And many of my sisters are older too. Several actually are in the mid-late 50’s. Most of the rest are in their 40’s. And a couple are younger than me. I still believe if a woman is following her conscience, they are going to keep on doing what she always has. If that means NFP, then it remains NFP. If it means ABC, it remains ABC. And if she is just letting things happen as they do, that is what it remains. Yes, babies may not come as quickly as before, but that is pretty much how it works. Yes, illness and other medical issues happen. That has nothing to do with whether you allow nature to take it’s course or not. Then you follow the treatments set forth by drs. just as you would for pregnancies or anything else.
 
I think a lot of women can expect that their mid/late 40s will be gynecologically eventful. As I understand it, things often start going kablooey around then.

Hence, I can readily believe Longing Soul that providentialism gets much more difficult during those years, especially if the woman starts having a series of miscarriages. There are also a lot of other embarrassing and painful things that can start happening that women aren’t necessarily eager to talk about with people at church.

Bear in mind that Longing Soul is older than we are and hence has an older peer group and has had more opportunity than us to see how her peers weather the various seasons of life.
“gynecologically eventful”. Tee hee. I don’t know why, but that phrase made me giggle 🙂

As you said, fertility declines as a woman ages. For many this is in their 40’s (some later, some earlier.) So I am confused as to why their would be a greater desire for NFP? If pregnancy is less likely, why the desire to avoid? I’m in my 40’s and find it less eventful and rather dull, to be honest. Maybe I haven’t hit that peri menopause stage yet…🤷 I dunno. Even my OBGyn said she is perplexed when women in their 40’s chart as the likelihood of pregnancy is so diminished. (She is very pro-life BTW and supports NFP). Wouldn’t it be a time to be free of charting??

Why in gracious would you talk about feminine pains to women at church??? That is certainly not coffee and donut chatter at the after church social! :eek:
 
“gynecologically eventful”. Tee hee. I don’t know why, but that phrase made me giggle 🙂

As you said, fertility declines as a woman ages. For many this is in their 40’s (some later, some earlier.) So I am confused as to why their would be a greater desire for NFP? If pregnancy is less likely, why the desire to avoid? I’m in my 40’s and find it less eventful and rather dull, to be honest. Maybe I haven’t hit that peri menopause stage yet…🤷 I dunno. Even my OBGyn said she is perplexed when women in their 40’s chart as the likelihood of pregnancy is so diminished. (She is very pro-life BTW and supports NFP). Wouldn’t it be a time to be free of charting??

Why in gracious would you talk about feminine pains to women at church??? That is certainly not coffee and donut chatter at the after church social! :eek:
I agree. It seems silly that you would start trying to avoid when it’s harder to get pregnant to begin with. My mom had us farther and farther apart as she aged but didn’t do anything differently. She said many people did comment to her that they “were glad she finally figured out what was causing that problem” just to realize soon after she was pregnant again.
 
“gynecologically eventful”. Tee hee. I don’t know why, but that phrase made me giggle 🙂

As you said, fertility declines as a woman ages. For many this is in their 40’s (some later, some earlier.) So I am confused as to why their would be a greater desire for NFP? If pregnancy is less likely, why the desire to avoid? I’m in my 40’s and find it less eventful and rather dull, to be honest. Maybe I haven’t hit that peri menopause stage yet…🤷 I dunno. Even my OBGyn said she is perplexed when women in their 40’s chart as the likelihood of pregnancy is so diminished. (She is very pro-life BTW and supports NFP). Wouldn’t it be a time to be free of charting??

Why in gracious would you talk about feminine pains to women at church??? That is certainly not coffee and donut chatter at the after church social! :eek:
Speaking just for me and not for anyone else (and, of course, also speaking as someone who has at least 15-20 years to go 'til menopause, so I reserve the right to change my mind 😉 ) the increased risk of miscarriage and, to a point, birth defects after 40 will probably make me want to avoid more carefully at that point. I’m not sure that I could handle a child with serious birth defects well right now in my late 20s; the idea of increasing the risk of having a child who will need heavy-duty long-term-care when I’m in my 60s really scares me. (For context, while in high school I worked extensively with a boy who was both severely autistic and very mentally retarded, so I have some idea of what that involves.)

I’ve also had one miscarriage, and while it was one of the harder times in my life, I got through it. I’ve also heard from women online, though, who are fertile in their forties in that they conceive easily, but miscarry just as easily, so they’re having a miscarriage 2-3x/year. That is not something I could handle, not and be a good parent to any other kids. Once again though, of course, mileage may vary.
 
Oh, and there’s this. It may well just be one of my personality quirks, but not charting at all would really, really stress me out. We did that once while in the TTW/TTC camp, and that meant I was badly stressed for much of the month because I wasn’t sure where I was, cycle-wise, in relation to when we’d been intimate. There were several days towards the end of the cycle when I thought I must be pregnant because I thought I was late, but didn’t get a single positive pregnancy test–unsurprisingly, since my period eventually showed up.

I find information to be relaxing and comforting, even about something as mundane as my cycle. Others, I know, don’t care one way or the other–and that’s cool! To each her own, and all that. 🙂 It’s not so much that I find the information itself particularly interesting as that after tracking for nearly 4 years and for all of my sexually active life, not knowing feels a lot like not knowing what the balance is on the credit cards, or how much milk is in the refrigerator: very unsettling.
 
Speaking just for me and not for anyone else (and, of course, also speaking as someone who has at least 15-20 years to go 'til menopause, so I reserve the right to change my mind 😉 ) the increased risk of miscarriage and, to a point, birth defects after 40 will probably make me want to avoid more carefully at that point. I’m not sure that I could handle a child with serious birth defects well right now in my late 20s; the idea of increasing the risk of having a child who will need heavy-duty long-term-care when I’m in my 60s really scares me. (For context, while in high school I worked extensively with a boy who was both severely autistic and very mentally retarded, so I have some idea of what that involves.)

I’ve also had one miscarriage, and while it was one of the harder times in my life, I got through it. I’ve also heard from women online, though, who are fertile in their forties in that they conceive easily, but miscarry just as easily, so they’re having a miscarriage 2-3x/year. That is not something I could handle, not and be a good parent to any other kids. Once again though, of course, mileage may vary.
Yes.
 
Speaking just for me and not for anyone else (and, of course, also speaking as someone who has at least 15-20 years to go 'til menopause, so I reserve the right to change my mind 😉 ) the increased risk of miscarriage and, to a point, birth defects after 40 will probably make me want to avoid more carefully at that point. I’m not sure that I could handle a child with serious birth defects well right now in my late 20s; the idea of increasing the risk of having a child who will need heavy-duty long-term-care when I’m in my 60s really scares me. (For context, while in high school I worked extensively with a boy who was both severely autistic and very mentally retarded, so I have some idea of what that involves.)

I’ve also had one miscarriage, and while it was one of the harder times in my life, I got through it. I’ve also heard from women online, though, who are fertile in their forties in that they conceive easily, but miscarry just as easily, so they’re having a miscarriage 2-3x/year. That is not something I could handle, not and be a good parent to any other kids. Once again though, of course, mileage may vary.
I’m the type that I can (or could) conceive very easily. In one year I had 2 miscarriages, and then conceived and gave birth to my youngest, who was a preemie.

I learned Creighton in my early forties.
 
I think there’s a big problem with language in this discussion.

We talk about providentialists trusting God, letting God choose their family size or just accepting children as they come. While it is true that some of our Protestant brethren do basically that (no contraception, no NFP, and no break in marital relations no matter how dire the economic or medical circumstances), that language is less accurate with regard to Catholic providentialists. If a providentialist couple abstains for months or years, I think it’s reasonable to ask, in what way is that “letting God choose their family size” or “accepting children as they come” or “trusting God” more so than doing NFP. In practice, the providentialist couple and the NFP couple may wind up doing exactly the same kind of abstinence when circumstances are sufficiently dire. I feel like there is a substantial gap between Catholic providentialist language and Catholic providentialist practice.

As I’ve said before on CAF–NFP-to-avoid IS abstinence. It may be more finely calibrated than plain vanilla abstinence, but it is abstinence.
 
I think there’s a big problem with language in this discussion.

We talk about providentialists trusting God, letting God choose their family size or just accepting children as they come. While it is true that some of our Protestant brethren do basically that (no contraception, no NFP, and no break in marital relations no matter how dire the economic or medical circumstances), that language is less accurate with regard to Catholic providentialists. If a providentialist couple abstains for months or years, I think it’s reasonable to ask, in what way is that “letting God choose their family size” or “accepting children as they come” or “trusting God” more so than doing NFP. In practice, the providentialist couple and the NFP couple may wind up doing exactly the same kind of abstinence when circumstances are sufficiently dire. I feel like there is a substantial gap between Catholic providentialist language and Catholic providentialist practice.

As I’ve said before on CAF–NFP-to-avoid IS abstinence. It may be more finely calibrated than plain vanilla abstinence, but it is abstinence.
Plain Vanilla Abstinence. I love that term.

"Honey are we abstaining tonight? " “Yes dear, but it’s NFP abstinence, not plain vanilla abstinence!” 😊

I’m going to steal that line. Hope that’s ok?🙂
 
Plain Vanilla Abstinence. I love that term.

"Honey are we abstaining tonight? " “Yes dear, but it’s NFP abstinence, not plain vanilla abstinence!” 😊

I’m going to steal that line. Hope that’s ok?🙂
Sure!

With normal NFP, there’s the hope that it won’t go on very long, but there are so many marginal cases (for instance, breastfeeding and perimenopause) with extended abstinence where it gets really hard to tell the difference between NFP abstinence and plain vanilla providentialist abstinence. A year of abstinence is a year of abstinence.
 
A couple can believe that they should be open to whatever children God sends them, and then later in life have a reason come up where they know they need to avoid, and decide to avoid, and still believe that without any such reasons they should be open to whatever God decides to send them. I don’t see any inconsistency there, no reason to become a “silent” older couple, just because they did end up with a reason to avoid.

That being said, I know several women that for some reason or another have shared with me that they did not avoid when they were older. One had 0 children, one had 2, one is pregnant with her 3rd (she is still in her 40’s), one had 5, and two had 10. One of these women passed away (unrelated to pregnancy) but before she did, she expressed how she felt at peace because she knew she had welcomed all the children God wanted her to welcome. A lot of the larger families I know had children in their 40’s, but maybe they just started coming less frequently, so there is a chance they may have been completely open, and then there may be many smaller families that may have been open as well, but just weren’t blessed with more children. I wouldn’t assume that a couple that doesn’t have children in their 40’s was doing something to avoid (and much less something that is against the Church’s teachings).
 
I think there’s a big problem with language in this discussion.

We talk about providentialists trusting God, letting God choose their family size or just accepting children as they come. While it is true that some of our Protestant brethren do basically that (no contraception, no NFP, and no break in marital relations no matter how dire the economic or medical circumstances), that language is less accurate with regard to Catholic providentialists. If a providentialist couple abstains for months or years, I think it’s reasonable to ask, in what way is that “letting God choose their family size” or “accepting children as they come” or “trusting God” more so than doing NFP. In practice, the providentialist couple and the NFP couple may wind up doing exactly the same kind of abstinence when circumstances are sufficiently dire. I feel like there is a substantial gap between Catholic providentialist language and Catholic providentialist practice.

As I’ve said before on CAF–NFP-to-avoid IS abstinence. It may be more finely calibrated than plain vanilla abstinence, but it is abstinence.
Avoiding, whether through NFP or “plain vanilla abstinence” is still avoiding. I guess these labels and definitions thrown out there vary from person to person. I think it is just easy to read in the Catechism. Accept children God sends, raise them in the Faith… if just reasons arise, and we are sure we are motivated for the right reasons, we can avoid pregnancy for however long those reasons persist, knowing that “human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man’s eternal destiny.” So yes, be open to the children God wants to send you, and if you prayerfully discern you need to avoid, you can definitely use periodic continence (or plain vanilla abstinence 😉 ) to avoid. NFP is not required to be a good responsible parent.
 
I can only speak for my family, but NFP will not prevent a baby for us. We have had 12 years of attempting it and it never worked so if there is a need to avoid a child we really don’t have any other option. For over a year that’s exactly what we have done. During deployments that is exactly what we do so it’s not a new thing for us. My husband is gone until April for training and that’s kind of what needs to happen during separations. Abstaining when one spouse chooses it against the wishes of the other is very difficult. That’s a big part of why the priests we have spoken with have urged us to try to conceive when he gets home until the deployment and then just leave it to chance from that point on. They have all cautioned us that using NFP or abstaining when no compelling reasons exist is not Catholic, Biblical, or healthy for a couple. If there were reasons for it, it would be one thing, but simply because a spouse thinks he or she knows best is quite another.

I don’t understand why people here keep assuming that there are posters on this thread that are advocating for anyone to give birth to as many babies as possible, or that anyone thinks that any of us think no reasons exist for avoiding pregnancy ever, or that any of us embrace an ideology that forces women to do nothing except breed. Many of us have stated repeatedly that NFP works well for some couples but it is not for everyone. There are many reasons it isn’t for everyone. Personally I think it is a calling from God within the souls of the couple. If God is calling you to accept children as they come, He will make NFP much harder or impossible.

If the definition of providentialism that longing soul gave earlier in the thread is accurate, I have to honestly say I have never seen anyone on CAF or in real life ever advocate for that. I have seen the opposite occur where undue pressure has been placed on a couple to stop having kids after just one or two children. According to that definition, I don’t think someone that was part of that movement would use NFP to avoid or abstain completely either for any reason. I can see how NFP would be viewed differently by them though. I could see how they would view it as going against natural law. I’m not sure if I would agree with that myself, but I can see the point they would try to make. This is where I think it’s good to think for yourself instead of worrying what others believe. It’s where asking priests for help making decisions you are struggling with is probably the best shot at developing the confidence needed to stop second guessing yourself.

And before anyone thinks I’m singling out a specific person, no I’m not. When I write you, it is a general address not to anybody specifically.
 
I think there’s a big problem with language in this discussion.

We talk about** providentialists **trusting God, letting God choose their family size or just accepting children as they come. While it is true that some of our Protestant brethren do basically that (no contraception, no NFP, and no break in marital relations no matter how dire the economic or medical circumstances), that language is less accurate with regard to Catholic providentialists. If a **providentialist couple **abstains for months or years, I think it’s reasonable to ask, in what way is that “letting God choose their family size” or “accepting children as they come” or “trusting God” more so than doing NFP. In practice, the **providentialist couple **and the NFP couple may wind up doing exactly the same kind of abstinence when circumstances are sufficiently dire. I feel like there is a substantial gap between **Catholic providentialist **language and **Catholic providentialist practice. **
As I’ve said before on CAF–NFP-to-avoid IS abstinence. It may be more finely calibrated than plain vanilla abstinence, but it is abstinence.
You confuse every married who chooses to not use NFP, contraception and/or sterilization with a particular subset of the group who hold to a philosophy that not everyone in that group shares.

🤷 If a couple takes no particular measures to avoid pregnancy or conceive, why do you feel the need to attribute a particular philosophy to them? These people may simply be your fellow Catholics who accept that NFP is within Church teachings but they’ve decided for one reason or another that they don’t wish to use it–yet they haven’t necessarily ruled out the possibility that they might at some point in the future need to use NFP or abstinence, and they accept and respect when other couples who share their faith make different decisions regarding the use of NFP? If you must attach an “ism” to a word to describe married couples who do that, perhaps try using the word “Catholicism”.
 
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