Last Catholic Adoption Agency in England fights to stay open

[LemonAndLime]

Let’s take it slow, one step at a time, to help make it more clear.

The main point of my post was: the logic in Aramis’s post is defective.

He basically said almost all perpetrators were themselves victims, therefore almost all victims will themselves be perpetrators. That’s like saying
1 = 2

You can say 1 + 1 = 2
or
1.5 + .5 = 2
but you can’t say
1 = 2

He left out a factor.

How can you have half of a person?

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

How can you have half of a person?

I never stated that you can have half of a person. Reread it if you have to, several times, if you have to. It’s an analogy. I’m pointing out that you cannot have a logical conclusion from just one fact. As I stated before, the main objective of my post was to point out the defective logic in Aramis’s statement.

 

[LemonAndLime]

I never stated that you can have half of a person. Reread it if you have to, several times, if you have to. It’s an analogy. I’m pointing out that you cannot have a logical conclusion from just one fact. As I stated before, the main objective of my post was to point out the defective logic in Aramis’s statement.

You’ve completely lost me. Are you saying that its logical to assume that victims of abuse are going to be abusers themselves or not?

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

So gay people are evil now? I thought there was no such thing as good or evil people just sin and goodness?

Reread my post, several times, if you need to. I never stated that gay people are, or are not, evil.

Homosexuality, however, surely is a very, very, very, evil sin. If your RCIA teacher has not taught that, perhaps they will get to it, or perhaps you missed class that evening, or perhaps you need to read Catholic Answers a little more.

Up until 1979, I was a liberal and confused Catholic myself. Since then, I’ve at least learned that there is a long way to go. Even after emerging from my liberality over 30 years ago, I know that I need to learn every day.

Why don’t you go to the main page for Catholic Answers, and do a search on homosexuality? If you find any articles written by Karl Keating himself, you can’t go wrong reading one of his.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

You’ve completely lost me. Are you saying that its logical to assume that victims of abuse are going to be abusers themselves or not?

Based on what? Logic and assumption are two entirely different things.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Reread my post, several times, if you need to. I never stated that gay people are, or are not, evil.

Homosexuality, however, surely is a very, very, very, evil sin. If your RCIA teacher has not taught that, perhaps they will get to it, or perhaps you missed class that evening, or perhaps you need to read Catholic Answers a little more.

Up until 1979, I was a liberal and confused Catholic myself. Since then, I’ve at least learned that there is a long way to go. Even after emerging from my liberality over 30 years ago, I know that I need to learn every day.

Why don’t you go to the main page for Catholic Answers, and do a search on homosexuality? If you find any articles written by Karl Keating himself, you can’t go wrong reading one of his.

But the problem is, any Catholic article arguing for how disordered and evil homosexuality is has a conflict of interest. The Church teaches that it is disordered therefore itself and its followers will naturally write “articles” attempting to prove that fact. For me to believe in anything being scientifically/biologically disordered, I need a scientific study which doesn’t have a vested interest in a certain outcome. The moral and natural law point of view (from a reproductive/marriage viewpoint) I can accept and agree with - but proof that it is disordered and unnatural… it kinda needs to be scientific. The Church cannot prove a scientific point.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

But the problem is, any Catholic article arguing for how disordered and evil homosexuality is has a conflict of interest. The Church teaches that it is disordered therefore itself and its followers will naturally write “articles” attempting to prove that fact. For me to believe in anything being scientifically/biologically disordered, I need a scientific study which doesn’t have a vested interest in a certain outcome. The moral and natural law point of view (from a reproductive/marriage viewpoint) I can accept and agree with - but proof that it is disordered and unnatural… it kinda needs to be scientific. The Church cannot prove a scientific point.

It appears that your catechist has failed to start with some basics, like how the Church arrives at truth. The Church has no interest in making scientific proofs. There is no conflict of interest. If you are looking for scientific proof, you won’t find it in Catholicism. It is a religion. Not only that, but it is a supernatural religion, being founded by God himself. It is based on the idea that it’s teachings are revealed by God himself, not arrived at by scientific or pick and choose philosophical discovery. The Magisterium teaches with authority from God himself. It proposes what is to be believed with Divine Faith. Any articles you read, or for that matter, anything the catechist teaches, is only as good as the teaches of the Magisterium that they reflect.

 

[LemonAndLime]

It appears that your catechist has failed to start with some basics, like how the Church arrives at truth. The Church has no interest in making scientific proofs. There is no conflict of interest. If you are looking for scientific proof, you won’t find it in Catholicism. It is a religion. Not only that, but it is a supernatural religion, being founded by God himself. It is based on the idea that it’s teachings are revealed by God himself, not arrived at by scientific or pick and choose philosophical discovery. The Magisterium teaches with authority from God himself. It proposes what is to be believed with Divine Faith. Any articles you read, or for that matter, anything the catechist teaches, is only as good as the teaches of the Magisterium that they reflect.

We haven’t got to the “sticky issues” yet. Okay then, why do we obey the rules on homosexuals but not the other strange Lev ones?

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

We haven’t got to the “sticky issues” yet. Okay then, why do we obey the rules on homosexuals but not the other strange Lev ones?

Lev? Leviticus? Stoning homosexuals to death? I don’t obey that one, but the natural law that it is based on, that it is against God’s design, by virtue of it’s very nature, that it is a natural law, and it is unchangeable, I believe it. Fortunately, I have also been able to have little problem being in compliance with that one. For those that have not, Christ died for our sins.

To go into further detail here would be going off topic of this thread, but I’m sure there are plenty of other threads on OT law.

 

[Holly3278]

I hope and pray that they stay open for as long as they can. I mean, it is inevitable that they will shut down sometime soon. That said, homosexual activities are absolutely disgusting but so much more than that, they’re evil! Evil people don’t deserve equal rights! I know you may be shocked at me saying this but consider this. Evil people who do evil things that are against the law go to prison right? Well, they sure don’t equal rights in there as they do out there! Therefore, evil people who do evil things that are not against the law should suffer the same punishment as far as goes their freedom commit evil! Personally, I could care less if a law is based solely on religion! When that is the case, it is all the better for me!

 

[LemonAndLime]

I hope and pray that they stay open for as long as they can. I mean, it is inevitable that they will shut down sometime soon. That said, homosexual activities are absolutely disgusting but so much more than that, they’re evil! Evil people don’t deserve equal rights! I know you may be shocked at me saying this but consider this. Evil people who do evil things that are against the law go to prison right? Well, they sure don’t equal rights in there as they do out there! Therefore, evil people who do evil things that are not against the law should suffer the same punishment as far as goes their freedom commit evil! Personally, I could care less if a law is based solely on religion! When that is the case, it is all the better for me!

I thought the Catholic Church said that we should hate the sin, not the sinner? Sounds like you hate homosexuals to me. I also thought there was no such thing as evil people, just sins. Please justify your hatred towards homosexuals when you claim to be Catholic. The Catholic Church’s official position is that you should show compassion.

I also find it really offensive that you said homosexual people don’t deserve equal rights. I personally think that people who wish to deny others equality should have their rights removed instead for their abhorrent arrogance.

 

[estesbob]

We haven’t got to the “sticky issues” yet. Okay then, why do we obey the rules on homosexuals but not the other strange Lev ones?

First you have to recognize that the Catholic Church is not a Scripture alone church. Any doctrine has to be supported by three things -Scripture, tradition, and the unerring teachings of the magisterium. We don’t follow all the teachings of Leviticus becuase they are not all supported by tradition and the teachings of the magestrium.this is because the new Covnenant lifted the requirement that we follow the letter of the Jewish law.

Now let’s look at the Catholic doctrine that homosexual behavior is the grievous sin. It definitely is supported by Scripture not only in Leviticus but throughout the Old Testament and it is affirmed in the New Testament.

How about tradition? Homosexual behavior has always been held to be sinful during the entire lifespan of not only the Catholic Church but throughout every Christian religion up until recent times.

How about the unerring teachings of the magisterium? You can find condemnations of homosexual behavior in the writings of the Church fathers as far back as the first century. You can find early confession guides listing it as a mortal sin and giving suggested penances. And of course the latest version the catechism details very well that homosexual behavior is a mortal sin that put one’s immortal soul in danger.

 

[estesbob]

I thought the Catholic Church said that we should hate the sin, not the sinner? Sounds like you hate homosexuals to me. I also thought there was no such thing as evil people, just sins. Please justify your hatred towards homosexuals when you claim to be Catholic. The Catholic Church’s official position is that you should show compassion.

How do you recommned we show compassion to people who engage in homosecxual behavior? I recommned one lovingly tell them they are puting their immortal soul in danger and pray for them.

I also find it really offensive that you said homosexual people don’t deserve equal rights. I personally think that people who wish to deny others equality should have their rights removed instead for their abhorrent arrogance.

Homosexuals have the exact same rights as do all Americans regardless of race, creed, gender or country of national origin. In short they have equal rights.

 

[SunnaB16]

To go off topic with a bit of a rant:

Sexual relations between husband and wife are beautiful; but the ultimate purpose of marriage is to bring children into the world. Anything which attempts to block that is intrinsically evil: eg contraception in any form.

Marriage and family life are a (blurred) reflection of the inner Life of God, where the ***total Self-giving Love between Father and Son is the Holy Spirit. Infinitely fruitful Love. The love between husband and wife should be open to the possibility of bringing forth new life in the form of children. Its blatantly obvious that a same-sex "union" CANNOT generate new life: ***its BARREN! Its a sin against Gods very purpose in creating Man and Woman. The two are meant to be together in an intimate life-long union.

Then God said: “Let Us make Man in Our image, after Our likeness…” So God created Man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Genesis 1:26-27 RSV.
and:
“For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother, and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. So they are no longer two, but one.” Mark 10:7-8 RSV.
How anyone can condone, and even promote, same-sex shackups, and at the same time call himself a Christian, is a mystery.

Natural Family Planning is not contraception because the cycle is a normal part of a woman`s physical makeup.

 

[LemonAndLime]

How do you recommned we show compassion to people who engage in homosecxual behavior? I recommned one lovingly tell them they are puting their immortal soul in danger and pray for them.

Homosexuals have the exact same rights as do all Americans regardless of race, creed, gender or country of national origin. In short they have equal rights.

I would recommend that people on this forum stop being aggressive, nasty, and also stop looking down on homosexuals. They’re not without sin themselves.

To the person who posted just above me - you ask how a Christian can condone homosexual behaviour?

I ask you this in return - how can a Christian condone anti-homosexual aggression, bullying, and calling homosexuals evil people? I’m not saying that you are yourself… but the amount of times I’ve seen people, on this thread alone, talk of homosexuals in disgust when we as Christians are supposed to show compassion - well, the word “hypocrite” comes to mind. I call those people hypocrites because how they can say they are a good Catholic and then talk of homosexuals like dirt is beyond me.

 

[SunnaB16]

I would recommend that people on this forum stop being aggressive, nasty, and also stop looking down on homosexuals. They’re not without sin themselves.

To the person who posted just above me - you ask how a Christian can condone homosexual behaviour?

I ask you this in return - how can a Christian condone anti-homosexual aggression, bullying, and calling homosexuals evil people? I’m not saying that you are yourself… but the amount of times I’ve seen people, on this thread alone, talk of homosexuals in disgust when we as Christians are supposed to show compassion - well, the word “hypocrite” comes to mind. I call those people hypocrites because how they can say they are a good Catholic and then talk of homosexuals like dirt is beyond me.

You still seem to be totally confused over the difference between a person who suffers from same sex attraction, and the act of sodomy. As far as i can remember, no Catholic on this thread has been guilty of abusing folks who suffer that affliction. Its the ones who ***very aggressively PROMOTE SODOMY*** who have come under attack! Theres a big difference. Sure: we should love the sinner, but hate the sin; and the best way to show a sinner true love is to let him know that what hes doing is......a sin......evil. Sodomy is spitting in Gods Face.

Theres a group named "Courage", set up by Fr. John Harvey, which is for people who suffer from SSA; plus theres “Encourage”, for families and friends of these people. The SSA folks try to live chaste lives with the Grace obtained through the Mass and the Sacraments. If they fall, theres the Sacrament of Confession, as there is for the rest of us sinners. Those people should be lauded for their determination to live in Gods friendship. They`ll achieve salvation through their heroic struggles; and their reward “will be great”. i take my hat off to them.
Fr. Harvey showed genuine love.

Contrast the “Courage” people with the ones who take to the streets, demanding ACCEPTANCE of an abomidable, depraved lifestyle. Theyre demonically driven. Satan must be laughing his metaphorical head off at these "useful idiots" who have played right into his hands. Add the radical feminists to that brew; and Satans all-out war to destroy civilized society has been spectacularly successful. These “gays” are the ones whose behaviour should be condemned in no uncertain terms!

Hitler and Stalin were evil.
The only difference between those two, and the aggressive “gay rights”-demanding practitioners of sexual depravity, is one of degree.

Surely you can see the difference.

 

[LemonAndLime]

You still seem to be totally confused over the difference between a person who suffers from same sex attraction, and the act of sodomy. As far as i can remember, no Catholic on this thread has been guilty of abusing folks who suffer that affliction. Its the ones who ***very aggressively PROMOTE SODOMY*** who have come under attack! Theres a big difference. Sure: we should love the sinner, but hate the sin; and the best way to show a sinner true love is to let him know that what hes doing is......a sin......evil. Sodomy is spitting in Gods Face.

Theres a group named "Courage", set up by Fr. John Harvey, which is for people who suffer from SSA; plus theres “Encourage”, for families and friends of these people. The SSA folks try to live chaste lives with the Grace obtained through the Mass and the Sacraments. If they fall, theres the Sacrament of Confession, as there is for the rest of us sinners. Those people should be lauded for their determination to live in Gods friendship. They`ll achieve salvation through their heroic struggles; and their reward “will be great”. i take my hat off to them.
Fr. Harvey showed genuine love.

Contrast the “Courage” people with the ones who take to the streets, demanding ACCEPTANCE of an abomidable, depraved lifestyle. Theyre demonically driven. Satan must be laughing his metaphorical head off at these "useful idiots" who have played right into his hands. Add the radical feminists to that brew; and Satans all-out war to destroy civilized society has been spectacularly successful. These “gays” are the ones whose behaviour should be condemned in no uncertain terms!

Hitler and Stalin were evil.
The only difference between those two, and the aggressive “gay rights”-demanding practitioners of sexual depravity, is one of degree.

Surely you can see the difference.

I will pray for you. How dare you have the audacity to compare gay men to Hitler who murdered millions! People like you who are literally spreading hate by your words I hold in lower esteem than whose who engage in homosexual sex. Shame on you! Shame on you!

What’s wrong with radical feminists?

If I was a gay man reading this thread I would feel incredibly depressed. It would not encourage my respect of Catholics. Yes they should live a life of chastity, but your words are no better than the hate Hitler preached. They do not come across as a calm voice of reason.

My personal opinion is that I can accept that homosexuality goes against the natural law. I accept it goes against a moral law (sex outside of marriage). I can accept that men cannot marry another man. But I cannot except that they are evil if they give in to temptation. Do people on this forum call promiscuous teenagers evil? No they do not. So why is it okay to bash homosexuals on this website?

 

[estesbob]

I would recommend that people on this forum stop being aggressive, nasty, and also stop looking down on homosexuals. They’re not without sin themselves.

To the person who posted just above me - you ask how a Christian can condone homosexual behaviour?

Thats not what I asked. i asked :How do you recommned we show compassion to people who engage in homosecxual behavior? I recommned one lovingly tell them they are puting their immortal soul in danger and pray for them.

You didnt answer.

I ask you this in return - how can a Christian condone anti-homosexual aggression, bullying, and calling homosexuals evil people? I’m not saying that you are yourself… but the amount of times I’ve seen people, on this thread alone, talk of homosexuals in disgust when we as Christians are supposed to show compassion - well, the word “hypocrite” comes to mind. I call those people hypocrites because how they can say they are a good Catholic and then talk of homosexuals like dirt is beyond me.

They cant. Now having disposed of that strawman ill ask you again:

How do you recommned we show compassion to people who engage in homosecxual behavior? ?

 

[SunnaB16]

I will pray for you. How dare you have the audacity to compare gay men to Hitler who murdered millions! People like you who are literally spreading hate by your words I hold in lower esteem than whose who engage in homosexual sex. Shame on you! Shame on you!

i said that there`s a difference of degree.

It could be argued, though, that those two monsters (Hitler and Stalin) did less harm than are the present day “Gay Rights” and “Gay Lifestyle” promoters. Those other two committed mass murder, along with inflicting indescribable suffering. BUT, remember our Lords words: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt.10:28 RSV. The word "destroy" is a metaphor: the self-inflicted suffering in hell is forever. If these "Gay Rights" types lead others to hell; its for keeps. That`s worse than what those two monsters inflicted.

What’s wrong with radical feminists?

Are you related to Rip Van Winkle?
For starters: how about the push for “priestesses”? War between the sexes… Hatred of all men; and yet wanting to be like men… Active promotion of lesbianism… “Inclusive” language…

If I was a gay man reading this thread I would feel incredibly depressed. It would not encourage my respect of Catholics. Yes they should live a life of chastity, but your words are no better than the hate Hitler preached. They do not come across as a calm voice of reason.

Ignoring the offensive word “gay”: did you take any notice at all of my comments about the group called “Courage”, and the HEROIC struggles of its members?
i even said: “i take my hat off to them.”!
There are similar groups around, and there`d be a heap of SSA folks struggling along on their own. Best wishes to them as well.

My personal opinion is that I can accept that homosexuality goes against the natural law. I accept it goes against a moral law (sex outside of marriage). I can accept that men cannot marry another man. But I cannot except that they are evil if they give in to temptation.

i said: “If [the SSA people who are trying to live chaste lives] fall, there`s the Sacrament of Confession, as there is for the rest of us sinners. Those people should be lauded…”
Whereabouts have i called them evil?

The ones i called evil are the loud-mouthed, badly-behaving sodomy promoters who take to the streets, and attempt (very successfully!!!) to ram their depraved opinions and “lifestyle” down our throats!
Of course, they all need our prayers and encouragement to live in God`s Grace!

Do people on this forum call promiscuous teenagers evil? No they do not. So why is it okay to bash homosexuals on this website?

Please be careful not to read-in unintended mean-spiritedness!

Regarding terminology, i prefer not to call those who suffer from same sex attraction “homosexuals”, “gays”, “lesbians” etc. Those words look and sound crude. They label people, rather than their disorder.
“SSA sufferer(s)”, “SSA person/people/folks”, “people who suffer from SSA” etc look and sound more civilized to my senses. Clumsy; but more respectful? Or am i mad?

Long-winded!

 

[LemonAndLime]

i said that there`s a difference of degree.

It could be argued, though, that those two monsters (Hitler and Stalin) did less harm than are the present day “Gay Rights” and “Gay Lifestyle” promoters. Those other two committed mass murder, along with inflicting indescribable suffering. BUT, remember our Lords words: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt.10:28 RSV. The word "destroy" is a metaphor: the self-inflicted suffering in hell is forever. If these "Gay Rights" types lead others to hell; its for keeps. That`s worse than what those two monsters inflicted.

Stop trying to compare Hitler and Stalin to gay men and women. You cannot compare a holocaust to men who can turn better to the gay activists rather than the Church.

Are you related to Rip Van Winkle?
For starters: how about the push for “priestesses”? War between the sexes… Hatred of all men; and yet wanting to be like men… Active promotion of lesbianism… “Inclusive” language…

No, I’m not, are you? By the way, “hatred of all men” is not feminism, look it up in a dictionary. Lesbianism does not fall under the definition of feminism either. Feminism is the belief that women should have equal legal and social rights. If you believe a woman has the right to read and write that makes you a radical feminist to 90% of the world’s population. Are you still sure you have the definition of “radical feminist” correct?

Ignoring the offensive word “gay”: did you take any notice at all of my comments about the group called “Courage”, and the HEROIC struggles of its members?
i even said: “i take my hat off to them.”!
There are similar groups around, and there`d be a heap of SSA folks struggling along on their own. Best wishes to them as well.

I did notice but did not reply because I did not take offence. I think those groups that support homosexual men to take a life of chastity do good work. But not those who describe homosexuals as alike to Hitler.

i said: “If [the SSA people who are trying to live chaste lives] fall, there`s the Sacrament of Confession, as there is for the rest of us sinners. Those people should be lauded…”
Whereabouts have i called them evil?

The ones i called evil are the loud-mouthed, badly-behaving sodomy promoters who take to the streets, and attempt (very successfully!!!) to ram their depraved opinions and “lifestyle” down our throats!
Of course, they all need our prayers and encouragement to live in God`s Grace!

If you were a gay man, would you turn to the Church when you see its members calling their thoughts and actions evil? Would you turn to the Church if you read someone comparing them to Hitler? Or would you rather turn to someone who tells you that your thoughts and actions are okay and natural. I know which one I would pick if my only impression of the Church were anti-gay lifestyle protesters like yourself. I cannot see any compassion in your posts, other than for those who have already come to the Church.

Please be careful not to read-in unintended mean-spiritedness!

Regarding terminology, i prefer not to call those who suffer from same sex attraction “homosexuals”, “gays”, “lesbians” etc. Those words look and sound crude. They label people, rather than their disorder.
“SSA sufferer(s)”, “SSA person/people/folks”, “people who suffer from SSA” etc look and sound more civilized to my senses. Clumsy; but more respectful? Or am i mad?

Long-winded!

Well you’re already labelling them as Hitler and Stalin, so why not continue on with calling them homosexuals? By the way what does SSA stand for?