Last Name Changes on Marriage

[chevalier]

As a doctor, can you legally change your name?

The female med students I knew who were in relationships and planning to change their name upon marriage always made sure to wed before they received their degree so that their parchment would be issued in their married name. I was always told that if they graduated with their maiden name they couldn’t change it, at least not for their practice.

Well, there’s a reason the word ‘née’ exists. Having some papers in a different name from a previous part of one’s life (and marriage is a life-altering event) is not the end of the world. Also, there are people who practice under something different from their full legal name (don’t know about medicine specifically or about your jurisdiction, though, mine’s in Europe).

 

[Phemie]

Exactly. Giving someone a cake with candles on it on his birthday, singing “Happy Birthday to You” and inviting him to blow the candles out is “just” a custom which is certainly not universal. But if your family andf friends who claimed to love you, refused to follow this custom on your birthday, because “it’s just a silly custom”, you would certainly get the message that they DON’T love you.

Then I guess no one loves me.

 

[agnes_therese]

Somebody who “respects my wishes” when I insist on doing something stupid, esepcially something that tells the world “I’m not really committed to this marriage thing” is not showing love for me.

Not changing a name in NO way means someon is “not really committed.” That’s ridiculous.

 

[thewanderer]

Interestring that you say “claims”. You just can’t imagine or permit anyone to have different view from you on this. We all must reallly secretly agree with you regardless of what we say, eh? What was that about maturity?

???
I really don’t understand why you think the use of the word claims implies that other people all secretly agree with me. I certainly never intended to imply such a ridiculous statement. By the way, thank you so much for the ad hominum, just how anybody likes to start their day.

Of course in the very unlikely scenario that any woman that I had decided to marry had said those words in the way you put it, of course I would not just immediately break it off without another word, but would attempt to reason with her, and as I said, only if at length she** insisted **on not taking my name would I most reluctantly conclude, with a breaking heart, that she was not and may not ever be mature enough to commit to marriage and the sacrifices it entails. Real sacrifices, not silly nonsense about names.

Yes, I agree that if a woman is absolutely set on not taking her future spouses name to the point that she will not honestly consider his feelings on the matter and make the decision with him instead of for him is likely not ready for marriage, just as I think a man who insists on their future wife taking his name without any willingness to actually consider her feelings on the matter. The last part of your reply is exactly why i have been saying what I have. The thing is, ** it goes both ways **

 

[chevalier]

In connection with some of the recent posts, I think we’re in dire need for some explanation. So:

Let’s not contradict ourselves here: this is either an important issue or not. If it’s important, it’s important both when changing it and when not changing it. One can’t say, ‘Oh, it’s so unimportant and you’re making such a fuss of it! A surname is just an unimportant detail,’ while at the same time saying, ‘I want to keep my surname because it is such an important part of my identity,’ etc.

Basically can’t have the cake and eat it at the same time. One has to decide and be consequent: either it’s unimportant — in which case neither party should make any fuss (not just the man should suck it up) and they might as well flip a coin or roll a die — or it actually is important, in which case we talk like grown adults about an adult problem, without knee jerk emotional reactions.

And one can’t divorce a symbolic gesture from its typical significance, which I am going to until everybody understands it. You can agree or disagree on the merits but you can’t act like red or green light is just a coloured bulb.

Finally, the same or similar concerns that I mention would attach to refusal to follow different customs in a different culture, by someone to whom that culture were native. For example, in some places it is a custom to hyphenate a married woman’s name and in some others it used to be a custom to introduce a married woman as, ‘Jane Smith, née Jones,’ or even ‘Jane Jones, married Smith’ (in genealogical tables women appear under their maiden names). A man asking his wife to drop the Jones in such a situation would appear to promote his ego at her expense or, worse, undercut her in order to dominate her, wouldn’t he? Similarly, a woman who rejects the customary external signs of marriage begs some questions (does she have commitment issues? is the marriage a limited one? doesn’t she have extreme feminist ideas?).

And a woman who won’t take a man’s name but fails to realise that her maiden’s name is also one (i.e. her dad’s, which her mum had taken, after being born with her own dad’s name) is showing signs of rather limited perspective, especially if she won’t see the light if you point this out. Then it’s more like denial.

 

[maryjk]

When I got married I never did legally change my name. Why? Because I’m a doctor and I’ve built my practice and reputation with my name. On my sign, business cards and stationary I did hyphenate it. When I got divorced all I had to do was get a new sign, new cards and stationary. We talked about my name before we got married. My ex-husband was fine with my not changing my name. He told me that under the circumstances he didn’t expect me to and hadn’t thought that I would.

This reminds me of a conversation that I had with someone a couple of months before I got married.

She was “on air talent.” And was also getting married. She wasn’t changing her name, and I thought it was because she was known, on air, by her maiden name. Nope.

She wasn’t changing it because of the hassle of changing it back. She had been married before and changed her name, and then had changed it back when she divorced. She just didn’t want to have to go through the hassle again. I asked, of changing it? And she said, no, of changing it back!!! Um, hello, you aren’t even married yet and you are worried about having to change your name back? I was then educated on the divorce rate.

I guess overall I understand people that have a medical practice, on air persona, or the like not wanting to change their name. I even get those that have no living relatives or any way to carry on the family name, not wanting to change their name. I just don’t get those that don’t want to do it because of the hassle or because of the hassle they will have changing it back.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

My girlfriend simply plans to change her last name to my last name, keeping her original first and middle name and simply replacing her maiden last name with my last name. Pretty simple, makes things so much easier on documents and on the future kids.

 

[chevalier]

I guess overall I understand people that have a medical practice, on air persona, or the like not wanting to change their name. I even get those that have no living relatives or any way to carry on the family name, not wanting to change their name. I just don’t get those that don’t want to do it because of the hassle or because of the hassle they will have changing it back.

Yeah, can be pretty insulting. Imagine:

‘Oh, darling, I’d buy you a diamond engagement ring but it would be so much hassle to work for it [custom has it that a man’s got to spend 2-3 monthly salaries on it], go to the jeweller’s, worry about size and all and what if you didn’t like it or broke the engagement? Forms to fill, waiting, possibly a court case, nah, that’s too much. But please treat it all the same as if I bought you that ring, okay?’

In fact, for a second, I was tempted to register under a new nickname and ask this as a question in our forum to see the replies and have something to show.

I don’t know how to put it in right words but I think I could say I’m worried by the low prestige and lack of regard the external signs of marriage are getting.

 

[shainski]

It seems that this whole argument is getting quite silly.

and Chevalier - i agree with BlueEyedLady - It is not ONLY her father’s name - it is her name. It’s the only last name she ever had regardless of how she got it. So to say that she is taking her father’s name over her husband’s name is pointless. If she had a different name all her life - and then decided between her husband’s and father’s, it would be a valid point.

It seems to me that there are three sets of people here.

Men who refuse to marry anyone who will not take their names regardless of the situation.
Women who refuse to change their names regardless of the situation.

In those two cases - the men in that group should just avoid the women in that group - and both will be happier.

Those that will likely follow traditions unless situations arise that might make it difficult. For example, a man who marries a widow or divorcee with children - and wants to keep the same name as the children. A woman who is so well established in her name that it would cause problems.

I don’t see any reason that a couple cannot consider this issue on its own merits without being judged by everyone else. Why would other people care what this couple does? I understand why one of the parties of the marriage may care - i may even understand why the parents of that couple may have an opinion - but why is it everyone elses’ business?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I’m hearing a lot of “she’s choosing her father’s name over his”. No, its her last name. Just like her fiance she got it from her father, but it is just as much her last name as his is his.

The person changing their name gets to see it as a big deal, but I’m not sure anyone else has a right to. It isn’t your name, and you aren’t owed anyone giving up theirs to take yours.

The “custom” argument doesn’t work with me. I was taught as a teenager that “everybody else is doing it” is not a valid reason, much less a strong argument for anything.

Furthermore, this whole " if she doesn’t it shows that she isn’t ready for marriage" thing is nuts. I’ve showed that I’m completely committed to this in countless ways, the most recent one being inviting his father to come live with us because he’s fallen on some really hard times. If my fiance told me that that and everything else we’ve done and shared didn’t matter and that all the sacrifices we’ve both made meant nothing if I wouldn’t take his name and that’s how he was judging my readiness for marriage I would say good riddance because his priorities would be completely screwed up.

While we’re taking about sacrifice the man can sacrifice. It’s easier for him to not have her change then for her to change.

 

[FullOfThought]

I am following a blog post where the bride to be announced that she would be be hyphenating when she gets married in January. She likes her last name, it high up in the alphabet (A) and a number of reasons why she would like to keep her name.

I have never given much thought to keeping my name except that I also like where I am alphabetically (C). I don’t really want to hyphenate because my first name is long, my last name is longer and I always thought that I would give one of my sons my last name as a middle name (a few cousins have already used the name as a first name and I am not jumping on that bandwagon). I have a million to eternity relatives with the same last name so I am not attached to it in the sense that there will be no more of us, believe me there will always be more because as a family we procreate like crazy besides my kids wouldn’t carry my last name really.

I believe that this is a personal decision for each couple and there is no right or wrong way but I would love to hear how everyone came to there own decision of what they did or would like to do.

I have to admit I did not read this whole thread, so here’s hoping I’m still on topic!

I recently got married and changed my name, and my parents did mind at all.

HOWEVER, as soon as they found out that my doctorate would be in my married name they were very concerned! This bothered me greatly! They said they didn’t think we’d get divorced but what if what if what if!

I am proud to take my husbands name, even though it’s actually an AWFUL name lol!! Our poor kids!!

 

[SonCatcher]

What you miss when going away for the weekend!

And lastly, I think it is sad that a woman carries the kid for 9 months and the second it is born, the father’s last name is given because after all he is the man.

CM,
Our first child was born before my wife changed her name. Even though his birth certificate reads “firstname mylastname,” in the hospital we were required to refer to him as “firstname herlastname” for the patient records.

It was a little surreal but also fairly cool.

What I am really attached to which can seem silly is my signature, I have been perfecting that thing since I was 11 years old. I love it, I worked hard to get it the way it is, not easily forge-able, squiggly and me.

DW kept her signature. It was illegible anyway so there was no point in changing it. I think she may have had to invent a legible signature (with her “American” name) when we bought our house, but that’s it.

 

[FullOfThought]

DW kept her signature. It was illegible anyway so there was no point in changing it. I think she may have had to invent a legible signature (with her “American” name) when we bought our house, but that’s it.

I did the same!!

 

[severus68]

In connection with some of the recent posts, I think we’re in dire need for some explanation. So:

Let’s not contradict ourselves here: this is either an important issue or not. If it’s important, it’s important both when changing it and when not changing it. One can’t say, ‘Oh, it’s so unimportant and you’re making such a fuss of it! A surname is just an unimportant detail,’ while at the same time saying, ‘I want to keep my surname because it is such an important part of my identity,’ etc.

Basically can’t have the cake and eat it at the same time. One has to decide and be consequent: either it’s unimportant — in which case neither party should make any fuss (not just the man should suck it up) and they might as well flip a coin or roll a die — or it actually is important, in which case we talk like grown adults about an adult problem, without knee jerk emotional reactions.

And one can’t divorce a symbolic gesture from its typical significance, which I am going to until everybody understands it. You can agree or disagree on the merits but you can’t act like red or green light is just a coloured bulb.

Finally, the same or similar concerns that I mention would attach to refusal to follow different customs in a different culture, by someone to whom that culture were native. For example, in some places it is a custom to hyphenate a married woman’s name and in some others it used to be a custom to introduce a married woman as, ‘Jane Smith, née Jones,’ or even ‘Jane Jones, married Smith’ (in genealogical tables women appear under their maiden names). A man asking his wife to drop the Jones in such a situation would appear to promote his ego at her expense or, worse, undercut her in order to dominate her, wouldn’t he? Similarly, a woman who rejects the customary external signs of marriage begs some questions (does she have commitment issues? is the marriage a limited one? doesn’t she have extreme feminist ideas?).

And a woman who won’t take a man’s name but fails to realise that her maiden’s name is also one (i.e. her dad’s, which her mum had taken, after being born with her own dad’s name) is showing signs of rather limited perspective, especially if she won’t see the light if you point this out. Then it’s more like denial.

It works both ways. I could just as well say that if the surname is not important than why should a man insist that his wife to be change hers to his. If it is important than it is equally important to the woman as to the man.

What is the great significance to this symbolic gesture?

A woman’s surname is hers and has been hers for her lifetime. Perhaps then, every female child should take her mother’s surname and every male child, his father’s. Makes sense, there will be no one not seeing the light.

 

[Fireflylight]

The real point is that the name question should be talked about far before one is engaged and certinally before one walks down the isle.

The idea that a man would assume for 2-5 YEARS that the woman will take his name could create a tremendous let down, especally if it is important for him. It is at the same time unfair that a woman would have made a decision and not let the man in on it.

I started dating in Jan of 2011. We’re now thinking of a late 2013 wedding (just under 3 years). However, we’ve discussed all this. We’ve discussed name change feelings and why. We’ve discussed professional life and social situations that involve names. I, for one, would not feel that any couple should be married who hasn’t had these signfigant discussions. We had them 6 months in, when marriage was a speck on the horizon. I think that a shock on either party (not changing your name, or changing your name) would be a VERY relevant sign that neither are ready for marriage.

 

[maryjk]

The real point is that the name question should be talked about far before one is engaged and certinally before one walks down the isle.

The idea that a man would assume for 2-5 YEARS that the woman will take his name could create a tremendous let down, especally if it is important for him. It is at the same time unfair that a woman would have made a decision and not let the man in on it.

I started dating in Jan of 2011. We’re now thinking of a late 2013 wedding (just under 3 years). However, we’ve discussed all this. We’ve discussed name change feelings and why. We’ve discussed professional life and social situations that involve names. I, for one, would not feel that any couple should be married who hasn’t had these signfigant discussions. We had them 6 months in, when marriage was a speck on the horizon. I think that a shock on either party (not changing your name, or changing your name) would be a VERY relevant sign that neither are ready for marriage.

I have to agree with you.

My husband and I had that conversation very early in our relationship. He seemed fine with whatever I did. I felt that changing my name showed us starting our new life together.

 

[chevalier]

It seems that this whole argument is getting quite silly.

and Chevalier - i agree with BlueEyedLady - It is not ONLY her father’s name - it is her name. It’s the only last name she ever had regardless of how she got it. So to say that she is taking her father’s name over her husband’s name is pointless. If she had a different name all her life - and then decided between her husband’s and father’s, it would be a valid point.

I don’t wish to negate the significance of carrying a name since birth, and thanks for the reminder. But it seems to me that you choose to ignore the origin of the maiden surname, i.e. that ultimately both names derive from a man’s surname. First it’s father (unless she got her mum’s name or has a name she invented for herself), then it’s husband.

Don’t get me wrong. There are cultures where you just have the birth surname, married or not. Surnames themselves are a modern invention anyway (family name or appellation being something different from a modern legal surname). In those cultures this is different from the standard western, especially Anglo-Saxon, tradition of the wife taking the husband’s name.

IMHO anybody wishing to depart from established social customs should generally have the onus of providing good reasons and explaining his reasons to any affected parties. Not if he wants the freedom to do it (by all means go ahead if you aren’t hurting anybody… but this includes the husband and his feelings, I’m pretty tired of the common perspective according to which a woman is expected to have an attitude and a man to suck it up and put up with it) but if he or she wants some kind of social validation or particular respect for his or her decision (other than mere tolerance). Especially if he or she comes up with something particularly weird. I think we can agree that different surnames among siblings would be weird (apart from stuff like the second son starting a new male line of the mother’s family, as in the last heiress scenario).

I guess I can relate to the argument you provide (i.e. the surname one has always had), as long as there is no trace of the usual radical feminist resentments against marriage, although even in such a case, I can very well empathise with the typical man and realise that it can be a difficult thing for him, perhaps a wound, perhaps an insult, perhaps a sign of rejection or questioning his worth.

This is, by the way, why I am a fan of hyphenating, personally. You keep the birth surname and at the same time you take the husband’s name, legal papers and very important business sees you address as both, in normal life you choose to use whichever you feel like (I am a man with a hyphenated name and few people ever learn both components; in fact, my typical signature and the normal name under which I do business is about 3 times shorter than my full legal name), you react to both. …So, if a woman refused even to hyphenate (unless in her jurisdiction it’s like you have some legal obligation to spell it all out every single time you identify yourself to people), then I’d worry what’s the reason she’s so much against even adding the husband’s name. As much as I agree that it is indeed some form of tagging (I actually hate the ‘Mrs John Smith’ pattern, which denies the woman even a Christian name).

Anyway, I’m simply to things like: ‘I won’t take a man’s name!’, ‘if I’m going to have a man’s name, it’d better be my father than my husband,’ ‘your name is not good enough for me,’ ‘I refuse to be tagged like a sheep,’ and probably a couple more possible real reasons for the preference, as opposed to stated reasons, which aren’t always credible. This is the only reason I’m even participating in this discussion, as I’m completely ambivalent as to whichever possible naming custom is currently prevalent where I live, and as I said, I’m not projecting my own case either (which is too messy to apply any standard rules).

 

[shainski]

Anyway, I’m simply to things like: ‘I won’t take a man’s name!’, ‘if I’m going to have a man’s name, it’d better be my father than my husband,’ ‘your name is not good enough for me,’ ‘I refuse to be tagged like a sheep,’ and probably a couple more possible real reasons for the preference, as opposed to stated reasons, which aren’t always credible. This is the only reason I’m even participating in this discussion, as I’m completely ambivalent as to whichever possible naming custom is currently prevalent where I live, and as I said, I’m not projecting my own case either (which is too messy to apply any standard rules).

With that, I agree with you. If a woman’s only reason for keeping her last name is some kind of militant social statement - and if she wants to keep it with no concern for the feelings of her soon-to-be life partner, than she has misplaced priorities.

When i responded to your earlier point, I was thinking of my very young daughters. While they have my last name, it is their last name.

I was once on jury duty. The case involved a termination of parental rights. As such, there were three attorneys - the state, the mother’s, and an attorney representing the rights of a young child. While I don’t remember the exact name of the child’s attorney, it was something like “Kristie Christy”. Whatever it was, I was thinking at the time…“If i were a woman, and i had built up a reputation as an attorney, and my soon-to-be husband’s name combined with my first name makes me sound ridiculous, I might consider keeping my maiden name.” (Now, I recognize that my example might not be correct - because if that were the case, she could have gone by “Kristen” or something, so don’t get hung up on my example.)

 

[trinichiqn]

DW kept her signature. It was illegible anyway so there was no point in changing it. I think she may have had to invent a legible signature (with her “American” name) when we bought our house, but that’s it.

That’s good to know, my signature is kind of illegible as I said I was 11 when I started perfecting so lots of squiggles and going around on itself.

 

[chevalier]

I think that a shock on either party (not changing your name, or changing your name) would be a VERY relevant sign that neither are ready for marriage.

Well, you said it could be a tremendous let down for a man, and I guess a tremendous letdown does qualify as shock as well, doesn’t it? I don’t think a man would be not ready for marriage just because of being shocked that a woman won’t take his name in a country or some other community where women normally do this. Or especially if she suddenly told him he wanted him to take her ‘or else’ (although such a move could only really be made a woman with a noticeable ‘attitude’, so he should’ve sensed beforehand).

I was once on jury duty. The case involved a termination of parental rights. As such, there were three attorneys - the state, the mother’s, and an attorney representing the rights of a young child. While I don’t remember the exact name of the child’s attorney, it was something like “Kristie Christy”. Whatever it was, I was thinking at the time…“If i were a woman, and i had built up a reputation as an attorney, and my soon-to-be husband’s name combined with my first name makes me sound ridiculous, I might consider keeping my maiden name.” (Now, I recognize that my example might not be correct - because if that were the case, she could have gone by “Kristen” or something, so don’t get hung up on my example.)

As a litigation lawyer, by education mostly if not by current occupation, I am perfectly content with ‘That Bastard’.

In fact, Kristie Christy wouldn’t be that bad. It would be distinguishable and that helps in a job where you need to find clients. Behind your back they’d call you ‘Feisty Kristie’ or ‘Beastie Christie’ and your legend would grow. Free advertisement.