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ProVobis
Guest
I remember that rule. Of course it was easier when Masses were scheduled on the hour all Sunday morning. Now if you miss parts of the Mass, you may not have another Mass nearby where you can make it up.
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Late for Mass
- Thread starter CatholicCajun
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InThePew
Guest
The thinking behind a shift away from setting out specific rules for fulfilling one’s mass obligation was to emphasise the unity of the mass as a whole (ie. Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist). There was also the problem that some people tended to treat minimums as norms and so only be present for the parts that were mandatory. So trying to place the different parts of the mass in a hierarchical order tends to lead to them being seen as being separate from each other, whereas they’re actually intended to complement each other as the component parts of the greater whole.I strongly disagree, Father. I don’t think that what was done to the Mass was a good restoration or renewal, and I don’t think that, while the Epistle & Gospel are important, they are so important as to require our presence for us to fulfill the obligation. They are not the principal parts of the Holy Mass.
C
Confiteor_Deo
Guest
Yes, it is the sad truth that sometimes there is no Mass available to make it up. Fortunately, my parish has 9 Masses for Sundays so, if I should fall into such an unfortunate situation, I can hop into a vernacular Mass to make it up.I remember that rule. Of course it was easier when Masses were scheduled on the hour all Sunday morning. Now if you miss parts of the Mass, you may not have another Mass nearby where you can make it up.
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ProVobis
Guest
Wasn’t there a Mass of the Catechumens and a Mass of the Faithful in there somewhere?The thinking behind a shift away from setting out specific rules for fulfilling one’s mass obligation was to emphasise the unity of the mass as a whole (ie. Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist).
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I think the matter is very well expressed by a reflection from the Archdiocese of Philadelphia:
*In 1963 Vatican II, intent upon renewing the life of the Church, published one of its most important documents: the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. Since then, Catholics have become familiar with many aspects of the Church’s prayer and, in particular, the two principal parts of the Mass: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. In the first, we listen to the Scripture readings of the day. In the second, after praying the Eucharistic Prayer, we receive the risen Lord in Holy Communion. As familiar as these two parts of the Mass might be, we can find ourselves puzzled by the Church’s teaching that both parts constitute one act of worship (SC 1 § 56). “Worship” implies a conscious action of offering praise or thanksgiving. Yet our experience is sometimes largely that of inactive listening to the readings (which we have heard many times before) and, perhaps, even inactive listening as the priest celebrant prays the Eucharistic Prayer which follows (and which we have also already heard many times before!)
To enter into both parts of the Sacred Liturgy – the Word and the Eucharist – and experience both together as one act of worship does indeed require action. It first requires conscious, active listening to the Scriptures being read. Fundamentally, however, the act of worship is more a spiritual one of response via a movement of the heart. This response comes only with truly receiving the word of God – not as God’s word to past ages – but as God’s living, redemptive and effective word to his people today. This active reception of God’s word is truly a divine encounter. In this, the Father through his Son Jesus is speaking to us his word of salvation. It is a word that, through the power of the Spirit can touch, comfort, or even shame or chastise, but always it will be a saving word! It is able to move us to a response of obedience – to acting on the word in the Spirit-given desire of the heart that is moved to conversion and praise.
Of course, God’s ultimate “word” to us is Jesus Christ – God’s Word made flesh for us. Present in the Old Testament like an “invisible and silent figure on every page,” as well as in the New Testament, Jesus is already present to us in the Gospel, since it is he who speaks his redemptive word and announces the love of the Father for his people (SC 1 § 7).
Having been nourished through the Scriptures at the “table of the Word”, we then move to the table of fullness, the altar, in the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Intro LFM no. 10). Important to understand is that one part of the Mass leads naturally to the next for its completion. That our Father has revealed himself in his word, Jesus, who speaks salvation is cause for thanksgiving. It is all one act of worship of the Father with the Son in the Holy Spirit!
After we have received the redemptive word and promise anew in the Scriptures, the Liturgy of the Eucharist begins as the unfolding of our praise and thanksgiving that God has entered into our presence, our very being. First, gifts of bread and wine are brought forward as the “work of human hands,” and the Father is acknowledged as the giver of all gifts. In the gifts brought by the people, we may easily sense that we are bringing what is needed for the offering – something of ourselves, of our lives – for the great thanksgiving about to begin. There, all will be transformed in Christ.
As the Eucharistic Prayer begins, the priest invites us to enter into the great thanksgiving: “Let us give thanks and praise.” Our response is that “it is right and just” to do so. Then, as we recall all God’s great deeds, our thanksgiving reaches its apex as we remember the great work of Jesus Christ for our salvation. We hear his words: “Take this . . . my Body . . . eat . . . Take this . . . the Cup of my Blood . . .drink . . .” Through the voice of the celebrant, it is Christ who speaks his word again and, through the Spirit, we experience a silent, interior moment of adoration and praise. Remembering specifically his Passion, Death and Resurrection, we proclaim as an assembly our thankful praise of his saving work and our undying hope: “Dying, you destroyed our death . . . rising, you restored our life . . . Lord Jesus, come in glory.”
The mystery revealed is that, through the celebrant acting in persona Christi, Jesus makes present in our very midst his everlasting sacrifice of Calvary, his own perfect worship, offering himself to the Father for us as both victim and priest. Moreover, as if that alone were not enough, he joins to his offering the offering of the whole Church and gives it wholly new value (CCC no. 1368). Thus, we are drawn into his perfect offering, his perfect obedience to the Father’s will, and into the one worship fitting to be offered by Christ’s body, the Church. Because it is through Jesus alone, “with him, and in him,” that we are able to offer the Father all honor and glory, we acclaim “Amen.” One with him in his redemptive sacrifice, our reception of his Body and Blood which follows is then wholly and true communion. We are transformed by both the Word and the Eucharist.*
archphila.org/Roman%20Missal/pdfs/The%20Liturgy%20of%20the%20Word%20and%20the%20Liturgy%20of%20the%20Eucharist%20One%20Act%20of%20Worship.pdf
*In 1963 Vatican II, intent upon renewing the life of the Church, published one of its most important documents: the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy. Since then, Catholics have become familiar with many aspects of the Church’s prayer and, in particular, the two principal parts of the Mass: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. In the first, we listen to the Scripture readings of the day. In the second, after praying the Eucharistic Prayer, we receive the risen Lord in Holy Communion. As familiar as these two parts of the Mass might be, we can find ourselves puzzled by the Church’s teaching that both parts constitute one act of worship (SC 1 § 56). “Worship” implies a conscious action of offering praise or thanksgiving. Yet our experience is sometimes largely that of inactive listening to the readings (which we have heard many times before) and, perhaps, even inactive listening as the priest celebrant prays the Eucharistic Prayer which follows (and which we have also already heard many times before!)
To enter into both parts of the Sacred Liturgy – the Word and the Eucharist – and experience both together as one act of worship does indeed require action. It first requires conscious, active listening to the Scriptures being read. Fundamentally, however, the act of worship is more a spiritual one of response via a movement of the heart. This response comes only with truly receiving the word of God – not as God’s word to past ages – but as God’s living, redemptive and effective word to his people today. This active reception of God’s word is truly a divine encounter. In this, the Father through his Son Jesus is speaking to us his word of salvation. It is a word that, through the power of the Spirit can touch, comfort, or even shame or chastise, but always it will be a saving word! It is able to move us to a response of obedience – to acting on the word in the Spirit-given desire of the heart that is moved to conversion and praise.
Of course, God’s ultimate “word” to us is Jesus Christ – God’s Word made flesh for us. Present in the Old Testament like an “invisible and silent figure on every page,” as well as in the New Testament, Jesus is already present to us in the Gospel, since it is he who speaks his redemptive word and announces the love of the Father for his people (SC 1 § 7).
Having been nourished through the Scriptures at the “table of the Word”, we then move to the table of fullness, the altar, in the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Intro LFM no. 10). Important to understand is that one part of the Mass leads naturally to the next for its completion. That our Father has revealed himself in his word, Jesus, who speaks salvation is cause for thanksgiving. It is all one act of worship of the Father with the Son in the Holy Spirit!
After we have received the redemptive word and promise anew in the Scriptures, the Liturgy of the Eucharist begins as the unfolding of our praise and thanksgiving that God has entered into our presence, our very being. First, gifts of bread and wine are brought forward as the “work of human hands,” and the Father is acknowledged as the giver of all gifts. In the gifts brought by the people, we may easily sense that we are bringing what is needed for the offering – something of ourselves, of our lives – for the great thanksgiving about to begin. There, all will be transformed in Christ.
As the Eucharistic Prayer begins, the priest invites us to enter into the great thanksgiving: “Let us give thanks and praise.” Our response is that “it is right and just” to do so. Then, as we recall all God’s great deeds, our thanksgiving reaches its apex as we remember the great work of Jesus Christ for our salvation. We hear his words: “Take this . . . my Body . . . eat . . . Take this . . . the Cup of my Blood . . .drink . . .” Through the voice of the celebrant, it is Christ who speaks his word again and, through the Spirit, we experience a silent, interior moment of adoration and praise. Remembering specifically his Passion, Death and Resurrection, we proclaim as an assembly our thankful praise of his saving work and our undying hope: “Dying, you destroyed our death . . . rising, you restored our life . . . Lord Jesus, come in glory.”
The mystery revealed is that, through the celebrant acting in persona Christi, Jesus makes present in our very midst his everlasting sacrifice of Calvary, his own perfect worship, offering himself to the Father for us as both victim and priest. Moreover, as if that alone were not enough, he joins to his offering the offering of the whole Church and gives it wholly new value (CCC no. 1368). Thus, we are drawn into his perfect offering, his perfect obedience to the Father’s will, and into the one worship fitting to be offered by Christ’s body, the Church. Because it is through Jesus alone, “with him, and in him,” that we are able to offer the Father all honor and glory, we acclaim “Amen.” One with him in his redemptive sacrifice, our reception of his Body and Blood which follows is then wholly and true communion. We are transformed by both the Word and the Eucharist.*
archphila.org/Roman%20Missal/pdfs/The%20Liturgy%20of%20the%20Word%20and%20the%20Liturgy%20of%20the%20Eucharist%20One%20Act%20of%20Worship.pdf
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Neofight
Guest
This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.
Why do we torment ourselves? Coming into the presence of the Lord in his house is not a sporting event with a play clock.
Making an issue of what time you arrive for celebration of the Mass to “count”, runs the risk of telling people not to bother, and to just sit out until next week.
This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it
PEACE AND ALL GOOD!
Why do we torment ourselves? Coming into the presence of the Lord in his house is not a sporting event with a play clock.
Making an issue of what time you arrive for celebration of the Mass to “count”, runs the risk of telling people not to bother, and to just sit out until next week.
This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it
PEACE AND ALL GOOD!
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ProVobis
Guest
Maybe because of the of the obligation, would be my guess. We don’t seem to make an issue of tardiness at daily Mass, which in substance is the same as the Sunday Mass.Why do we torment ourselves?
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mikmac09
Guest
Anyone have issues with being late from trying to find a parking spot? The main church in my town is huge but the parking lot is ridiculously small like the size of a 7-11. You’d have to leave home like a hour before just to get a spot. The streets are all parked up and surrounding business lots too. I live 1 mile away and left 10 minutes before mass started. Drove around the block 3 times and gave up. I know it’s my fault as I should have prioritized better and left earlier. Drove across town to another catholic church and found a spot in their lot. Walked in right after the first reading about (10 minutes in or so) and took a seat in the back pew. I choose not to receive communion just in case because I wan’t sure.
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ProVobis
Guest
Not necessarily. If you had gotten the spot, someone else would have either had to park illegally or find another church to go to. Be that as it may, there are a lot of churches in cities like Chicago that have inadequate parking areas, probably because at the time they were built, people would either walk or take public transportation. Either that or the existing parking areas have now been converted to apartments and other types of housing. Land is at a premium in such places. It’s not a matter of being late; in some places you just can’t make it, period.I know it’s my fault as I should have prioritized better and left earlier.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
It is worth quoting what the bishops of the world assembled had to say about this in Sacrosanctum Concilium:The thinking behind a shift away from setting out specific rules for fulfilling one’s mass obligation was to emphasise the unity of the mass as a whole (ie. Liturgy of the Word and Liturgy of the Eucharist). There was also the problem that some people tended to treat minimums as norms and so only be present for the parts that were mandatory. So trying to place the different parts of the mass in a hierarchical order tends to lead to them being seen as being separate from each other, whereas they’re actually intended to complement each other as the component parts of the greater whole.
*50. The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.
For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.
- The treasures of the bible are to be opened up more lavishly, so that richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God’s word. In this way a more representative portion of the holy scriptures will be read to the people in the course of a prescribed number of years.
- The two parts which, in a certain sense, go to make up the Mass, namely, the liturgy of the word and the eucharistic liturgy, are so closely connected with each other that they form but one single act of worship. Accordingly this sacred Synod strongly urges pastors of souls that, when instructing the faithful, they insistently teach them to take their part in the entire Mass, especially on Sundays and feasts of obligation.*
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Brendan_64
Guest
I have heard that if you arrive after the Gospel, you are not permitted to take Communion at that Mass. I know of one person who says they were denied Communion by a priest at Mass because they arrived after (or possibly during) the Gospel. Bearing in mind that a person can receive Communion outside of Mass, this ruling doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me. Does anyone know about such a rule?
So…if I arrive just in time for the start of the Offertory and leave immediately after Communion, I have satisfied my obligation?One is considered to have missed Mass if one arrives too late to be present at the Offertory (when the Priest uncovers the chalice), or leaves before Communion is finished. The principal parts - that is, the Offertory, the Consecration, and the Communion - must be heard in one and the same Mass.
After reading this thread over the weekend, I checked my watch during Sunday morning Mass. We started at 8:00; the Offertory started at 8:29 and the priest’s Communion was at 8:40. Mass ended at 8:55.
So my obligation was only for the 11 minutes between 8:29 and 8:40?
This thread reminds me a little of the question priests inevitably get from high school age kids - “How far can we go on a date before it’s a mortal sin?” In other words, “What am I minimally required to do?” (or “What can I get away with?”).
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peter26
Guest
It makes sense. If someone has arrived late enough that they have not fulfilled their obligation, they are not in a state of grace.I have heard that if you arrive after the Gospel, you are not permitted to take Communion at that Mass. I know of one person who says they were denied Communion by a priest at Mass because they arrived after (or possibly during) the Gospel. Bearing in mind that a person can receive Communion outside of Mass, this ruling doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me. Does anyone know about such a rule?
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
You don’t have to have heard the Mass in order to receive Holy Communion. The person who arrived late should not have been denied Holy Communion.I have heard that if you arrive after the Gospel, you are not permitted to take Communion at that Mass. I know of one person who says they were denied Communion by a priest at Mass because they arrived after (or possibly during) the Gospel. Bearing in mind that a person can receive Communion outside of Mass, this ruling doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me. Does anyone know about such a rule?
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
Yes, but it is a venial sin to intentionally be late for Mass and to leave early. People will always do the minimum. Some people refuse to hear Mass unless it is a day of obligation.So…if I arrive just in time for the start of the Offertory and leave immediately after Communion, I have satisfied my obligation?
After reading this thread over the weekend, I checked my watch during Sunday morning Mass. We started at 8:00; the Offertory started at 8:29 and the priest’s Communion was at 8:40. Mass ended at 8:55.
So my obligation was only for the 11 minutes between 8:29 and 8:40?
This thread reminds me a little of the question priests inevitably get from high school age kids - “How far can we go on a date before it’s a mortal sin?” In other words, “What am I minimally required to do?” (or “What can I get away with?”).
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Brendan_64
Guest
Ahh, I hadn’t thought of it like that, there is logic to it now. If it is indeed a valid rule to deny a person Communion if they arrive after (or during) the Gospel, then it would follow that to arrive after (or during) the Gospel does not fulfil Sunday obligation.It makes sense. If someone has arrived late enough that they have not fulfilled their obligation, they are not in a state of grace.
However, it would also follow that this ruling should then only apply to Sunday Masses (or Holy days of obligation). If someone turned up after the Gospel on a weekday Mass then the lack of state of grace arising from missing their obligation would not arise, and they wuld be in a suitable state to receive Communion…
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Brendan_64
Guest
That’s what this person thought and was not very happy about what happened.You don’t have to have heard the Mass in order to receive Holy Communion. The person who arrived late should not have been denied Holy Communion.
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RyanBlack
Guest
So arriving after the Gospel has been read, or while it is being read, puts a person in a state of mortal sin?It makes sense. If someone has arrived late enough that they have not fulfilled their obligation, they are not in a state of grace.
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JewishCatholic
Guest
It makes sense, but is it correct? The pope thinks not.It makes sense. If someone has arrived late enough that they have not fulfilled their obligation, they are not in a state of grace.
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Brendan_64
Guest
Has the Pope spoken about this particular issue?It makes sense, but is it correct? The pope thinks not.
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