late to mass

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But when someone who is unknown to the priest arrives late to Mass and simply comes forward in the Communion line without having attended Mass, the priest can say that such a person is not eligible to be admitted to Communion at that particular moment. This is not at all a judgement on the person’s soul–it a recognition of the objective fact that the person arrived so late in the Mass as to have not-participated in the Mass.
FrDavid96, you have been very patient in your explanations, and I apologize if I am being thick.

I am still unclear how one’s participation in the Mass (or lack thereof) affects one’s *disposition *to receive the Eucharist. As [post=5710632]you yourself noted[/post]: *There is no point [defined by the Church] in the Mass when you have to be there in order to receive, *so how can a priest justly reckon that one person is properly disposed and another person is not, based on their participation?

It seems to me the requirements for proper disposition are outlined in Canons 916-919, and the only mandated participation is in reference to someone receiving a second time in a single day.

(Granted, none of the requirements listed there would exclude the stumbling drunk from proper dispostion – I hope that case would be covered by some other canon or rubric)

:confused:
tee
 
FrDavid96, you have been very patient in your explanations, and I apologize if I am being thick.

I am still unclear how one’s participation in the Mass (or lack thereof) affects one’s *disposition *to receive the Eucharist. As [post=5710632]you yourself noted[/post]: *There is no point [defined by the Church] in the Mass when you have to be there in order to receive, *so how can a priest justly reckon that one person is properly disposed and another person is not, based on their participation?

It seems to me the requirements for proper disposition are outlined in Canons 916-919, and the only mandated participation is in reference to someone receiving a second time in a single day.

(Granted, none of the requirements listed there would exclude the stumbling drunk from proper dispostion – I hope that case would be covered by some other canon or rubric)

:confused:
tee
tee,

It’s like I’ve been saying. Catholics have a right to receive Communion (for the sake of brevity, from now on I’ll refrain from adding what we already know “not impeded…”)

The priest in that parish is essentially saying this “every Catholic has a right to participate in Mass and receive Communion, therefore I am offering daily Mass at this parish. If you wish to receive Communion, come to Mass, and I will be more than happy to give you Communion.”

The manner in which we receive Communion is by participating in the Mass. Yes, we can do so at other times, but for our discussion here, that’s what we’re talking about.

At the same time, individual persons don’t get to choose for themselves the manner in which Communion is distributed. Catholics can’t simply walk up to a priest at any time, under any circumstances and say “I want to receive Communion” Yes, it’s possible, and yes, if the priest judges that it’s appropriate this can be done.

Catholics have a right to the Sacraments, but they don’t have a right to decide for themselves the manner in which the Sacraments are administered. The Church has said that the usual way to distribute Communion to healthy people is through the manner of attending Mass.

Let’s say someone approaches me in the grocery store and says “I want to receive Communion.” Well, think about that please. I don’t have to carry a pyx with me everywhere just in case someone does this. The person can’t say to me “I have a right, and I want it now.” If I respond with “there’s a Mass tomorrow at 9 AM. Be there and you can receive.” That’s perfectly appropriate. I’m not refusing a Catholic Communion, I’m only saying that this is not the time or place for it.

Although the above example is a bit extreme, it illustrates for us that the priest has a responsibility to protect the integrity of the Sacraments and the integrity of Mass itself.

As I said before, we can safely presume that if a person had arrived on-time and had participated in the Mass, the priest would have administered Communion. If that’s not true, we’re talking about a very different scenario.

The priest here is saying “if you want to receive Communion, by all means you may do so, but if you’re going to approach me within the context of Mass and request Communion, you have a responsibility to be here to actually attend the Mass.” That’s the point here. Someone can’t just ask a priest who’s celebrating Mass at that moment to give Communion to someone who hasn’t attended Mass.

Yes, the Church has never, to my knowlege, defined a moment in the Mass at which a person who is late cannot receive. However, we also have plenty of parallel examples where participation in the Mass is defined as being there to hear the Gospel.
Let me repeat my quote from earlier:
The Instruction Inaestimabile Donum approved by HH John Paul II expresses this in better words than I could ever compose:
  1. “The two parts which in a sense go to make up the Mass, namely the Liturgy of the Word and the Eucharistic Liturgy, are so closely connected that they form but one single act of worship.” A person should not approach the table of the Bread of the Lord without having first been at the table of His Word. Sacred Scripture is therefore of the highest importance in the celebration of Mass…
    papalencyclicals.net/JP02/JP2inaest.htm
We also have parallel examples from the CDWDS where the Church does define the Gospel as a possible (but not definitive) moment. Priests who are not celebrating Mass may hear Confessions in the same church while Mass is being said, but the priest must stop doing them before the Gospel begins. Although it doesn’t directly go to the issue at hand, it’s safe to say that it does express for us that the Church considers “being there to hear the Gospel” as a possible point.

We also know that there is a long-standing custom, at least in the US, of defining the Gospel as “the moment.” I know it goes back at least to the 1920’s because the generation of people who were children in that decade were being taught this. Custom remember means “how the law has been interpreted and applied by legitimate authority” it doesn’t mean “this is how we do things.”

I hope this helps.

Please remember that the priest is not refusing anyone Communion.
 
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a fast-food drive-thru where people just arrive whenever they please and say “I want to receive Communion and I want it now.”
Wow. Is that how you read the intention of the original post in this thread? Really? You inferred such a cavalier attitude from the actual posting? I sure didn’t.
 
Wow. Is that how you read the intention of the original post in this thread? Really? You inferred such a cavalier attitude from the actual posting? I sure didn’t.
No. It’s how I read your questions.

It’s like good Sister Mary D----- used to say to us in grade school “ask a silly question and you’ll get a silly answer.”

Silly question (since I already addressed those issues in previous posts at length)
Where is being late for Mass considered a valid reason for denying the Sacrament to the faithful?

IF there’s a question in the minister’s mind, why not err on the side of favor (as canon law notes) rather than restriction? Would Christ turn someone away for being late (without knowing more about the individual and circumstances)?
Results in a silly answer
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a fast-food drive-thru where people just arrive whenever they please and say “I want to receive Communion and I want it now.”

As for your 2 questions, I’ve answered them already.
 
That is correct, if they approach in public and nothing has taken place to officially prohibit them canonically prior to them approaching.
Ok just wanted to ask about this, I’m confused. I thought that a priest could and is supposed to deny Communion to anyone who is publically working to further the pro-abortion cause?

For instance, Patrick Kennedy…now I know he was prohibited by the bishop. But I thought there was at least one other case this year of a priest denying someone for the same reason, and it made the news? Sorry I can’t remember the specifics…
 
Ok just wanted to ask about this, I’m confused. I thought that a priest could and is supposed to deny Communion to anyone who is publically working to further the pro-abortion cause?

For instance, Patrick Kennedy…now I know he was prohibited by the bishop. But I thought there was at least one other case this year of a priest denying someone for the same reason, and it made the news? Sorry I can’t remember the specifics…
On the one hand, yes he is, but that’s not a decision to be made by the priest himself. Only the bishop can make that call, and the priest delays giving Communion only if the bishop tells the priests to do so.
 
On the one hand, yes he is, but that’s not a decision to be made by the priest himself. Only the bishop can make that call, and the priest delays giving Communion only if the bishop tells the priests to do so.
Ok, I see. Thanks! 👍
 
On the one hand, yes he is, but that’s not a decision to be made by the priest himself. Only the bishop can make that call, and the priest delays giving Communion only if the bishop tells the priests to do so.
But you’re saying an individual priest can make the decision by himself with no other (name removed by moderator)ut to deny communion to someone just because they’re late for Mass? This doesn’t seem coherent. Correct me if I misunderstand. Thanks.
 
But you’re saying an individual priest can make the decision by himself with no other (name removed by moderator)ut to deny communion to someone just because they’re late for Mass? This doesn’t seem coherent. Correct me if I misunderstand. Thanks.
I think it makes perfect sense. Late to mass is something that an individual priest can see and judge and is a matter on a parish-level only. A politician who is publically pro-abortion is a whole 'nother matter. The whole scope is different.
 
I think it makes perfect sense. Late to mass is something that an individual priest can see and judge and is a matter on a parish-level only. A politician who is publically pro-abortion is a whole 'nother matter. The whole scope is different.
How can a priest, at Mass, know the reason someone is late? Whether it’s excusable or not? Does he stop Mass and go ask them?

On the other hand, politicians who are publicly pro-abortion are just that…public. This is known and knowable any time. It’s not an “in the moment” decision.
 
But you’re saying an individual priest can make the decision by himself with no other (name removed by moderator)ut to deny communion to someone just because they’re late for Mass? This doesn’t seem coherent. Correct me if I misunderstand. Thanks.
No. You’re putting words in my mouth (again!). And I do think you understand perfectly well what I’m saying. You just don’t like it.

I am saying (and indeed, I have said it enough times on this thread that it’s becoming quite obvious that you keep using the word “deny” just to make the point that you have read it) that the priest DOES NOT make a decision to deny someone Communion, please read my posts. I’ve explained it enough times already.

Please read the sentence again:
A priest does not deny someone Communion.
A priest does not deny someone Communion.
A priest does not deny someone Communion.

The priest INVITES Catholics to come to Communion by virtue of the fact that he is celebrating Mass. Those who attend Mass can receive. Those who do not attend Mass cannot necessarily receive at that particular moment.

They deny themselves because they don’t attend Mass.

If a person does not attend Mass, that person does not receive Communion. People can’t just show up in church anytime they feel like it and receive Communion.

The priest says Mass. He INVITES Catholics to receive Communion. Those who attend that Mass will receive Communion.

If there is something about this that you truly don’t understand, or even don’t agree with, I would be more than happy to engage in a civilized conversation about the matter. But you’ve made it quite obvious, not only to me, but to anyone who is reading this thread, that you have no intention of engaging in a conversation, you are merely looking for any excuse to say that I-am-saying what I-am-not-saying: that a priest denies someone Communion.
 
I think it makes perfect sense. Late to mass is something that an individual priest can see and judge and is a matter on a parish-level only. A politician who is publically pro-abortion is a whole 'nother matter. The whole scope is different.
ac claire,
The difference here is that the person who is late is still being invited to receive Communion, but has not accepted the invitation by attending Mass. Let’s say it’s a Sunday morning and someone come in just as the first Mass is ending. The priest does not administer Communion to that person, but there is still the invitation to attend the next Mass and receive Communion.

Your point does apply though because yes, a priest can decide for himself who arrived too late for Mass. This isn’t a matter of saying “you can’t receive Communion” (which is beyond the priest’s competence) but a matter of saying “you haven’t approached to receive Communion at an appropriate time, and in an appropriate way at this particular moment.”

The politician, on the other hand is ineligible to receive until he has made some kind of a public rejection of abortion (or whatever conditions the bishop stipulates).
 
No. You’re putting words in my mouth (again!). And I do think you understand perfectly well what I’m saying. You just don’t like it.

I am saying (and indeed, I have said it enough times on this thread that it’s becoming quite obvious that you keep using the word “deny” just to make the point that you have read it) that the priest DOES NOT make a decision to deny someone Communion, please read my posts. I’ve explained it enough times already.

Please read the sentence again:
A priest does not deny someone Communion.
A priest does not deny someone Communion.
A priest does not deny someone Communion.

The priest INVITES Catholics to come to Communion by virtue of the fact that he is celebrating Mass. Those who attend Mass can receive. Those who do not attend Mass cannot necessarily receive at that particular moment.

They deny themselves because they don’t attend Mass.

If a person does not attend Mass, that person does not receive Communion. People can’t just show up in church anytime they feel like it and receive Communion.

The priest says Mass. He INVITES Catholics to receive Communion. Those who attend that Mass will receive Communion.

If there is something about this that you truly don’t understand, or even don’t agree with, I would be more than happy to engage in a civilized conversation about the matter. But you’ve made it quite obvious, not only to me, but to anyone who is reading this thread, that you have no intention of engaging in a conversation, you are merely looking for any excuse to say that I-am-saying what I-am-not-saying: that a priest denies someone Communion.
Wow. Sorry. What a response. I did not intend to agitate you so. My apologies.

I thought it was Christ who invites Catholics to receive communion. Not the priest. Just like it is Christ (God) who is the primary agent/actor in Catholic liturgy, not the priest/assembly.

I guess I don’t understand the Mass as well as you.

Are you saying Christ denies communion to someone who shows up late to Mass (for any reason, regardless of the circumstances)?

I sincerely apologize if you or anyone thought my participation in this thread was not civilized, gee, that really bothers me. My sincere apologies, I’m just trying to understand.

Thanks.
 
"diggerdomer:
I sincerely apologize if you or anyone thought my participation in this thread was not civilized, gee, that really bothers me. My sincere apologies, I’m just trying to understand.
dd,

Maybe you are doing it unintentionally? For instance when you first say:
I thought it was Christ who invites Catholics to receive communion. Not the priest.
But then you say
40.png
diggerdomer:
I guess I don’t understand the Mass as well as you.
That last sentence has a tinge of passive/aggressiveness to it. It might make a reader question "Does he really think he doesn’t understand the Mass as well? Or does he really mean he understands it better? Oh well, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt that he really means he doesn’t understand it very well.

But then you follow with
40.png
diggerdomer:
Are you saying Christ denies communion to someone who shows up late to Mass (for any reason, regardless of the circumstances)?
and it doesn’t look good for you. Because first you laid out your idea, then you admit that you don’t know the topic as well (by implication your idea is faulty), but then you ask if he is really saying what you said in your first sentence. See?

And again – first you conjecture that Christ invites, and then you ask if he is saying Christ denies. Fr. has been pointing out that he doesn’t say the priest denies, and gives his reasons. You apologize. Then you ask “are you saying Christ denies?” Do you see how this makes the apology look insincere?

Just trying to help you see what *might *be going on. You might not be aware how things could come across.

VC
 
dd,

Maybe you are doing it unintentionally? For instance when you first say: But then you say
That last sentence has a tinge of passive/aggressiveness to it. It might make a reader question "Does he really think he doesn’t understand the Mass as well? Or does he really mean he understands it better? Oh well, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt that he really means he doesn’t understand it very well.

But then you follow with and it doesn’t look good for you. Because first you laid out your idea, then you admit that you don’t know the topic as well (by implication your idea is faulty), but then you ask if he is really saying what you said in your first sentence. See?

And again – first you conjecture that Christ invites, and then you ask if he is saying Christ denies. Fr. has been pointing out that he doesn’t say the priest denies, and gives his reasons. You apologize. Then you ask “are you saying Christ denies?” Do you see how this makes the apology look insincere?

Just trying to help you see what *might *be going on. You might not be aware how things could come across.

VC
Thanks for your comments. I’m no psychologist, just trying to understand.
 
I am not addressing the OP question or the subject of the discussion which has become academic. Fr. has to do that to explain to the OP though and the explanation was great.

In reality though, not receiving communion is not such a big deal. Not that it is not important, in fact nothing can really compare to it in value but important still is to know that one has the right disposition in attending the mass. I think most of us would refrain from receiving communion if we don’t meet the requirement of the mass and that never means we are not blessed nor like it is we are not fully attending the mass.

If I cannot receive Holy Communion because I am not in a state of grace or has not sufficiently prepared for it, I am grateful that I can still participate in the mass. And my attendance makes it a valid complete mass for me whether I receive communion or not. And that’s more important to me. I often notice among Catholics, well, my family members, that their focus is solely on receiving communion, as if the mass is not complete for them if they do not receive communion.

I think if one loves the mass one would honor it and would not do anything to put it in disrepute. I would rather not receiving communion than receiving it not fully convinced that I had done the right thing. That in itself is great consolation because if I truly love communion I would try to ensure that the next time I comply with the mass requirement. And if I don’t receive communion, the mass for me is no less downgraded. Such is the power and the love of the Lord that all it takes is the sincerity of my heart and there is always the next time – when I can receive communion and receive it well. The Lord would certainly honor us if we honor the mass and his sacrifice.

I pray the OP’s friend won’t be too disheartened and hurt over the incident. I know our hearts are fragile and it is easier said than done, but still, I hope she will get over it. There is always a next time.

God bless.
 
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I had a question related to the topic.

What if one is not late for Mass at all but doesn’t hear the Gospel because he was not focusing on it. Is that person not in a disposition to receive Communion?
 
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I had a question related to the topic.

What if one is not late for Mass at all but doesn’t hear the Gospel because he was not focusing on it. Is that person not in a disposition to receive Communion?
There’s no objective way to answer that with the information given.
 
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