Latin and You. Wherein Fr. Z Rants

[JimR-OCDS]

This is how Jesus Prayed ?

Funny, how he said to go into your private room and say, “Our Father, who art in heaven. Hallowed Be thy name. Thy Kingdom Come. Thy will be done. On earth as it is in Heaven. Give is this day, our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”

Jesus didn’t specify what language to use when praying and he probably said this in Aramaic, in order for those listening to understand.

The point is, Jesus taught us how to pray and never specified the language to be used.

Jim

 

[TomH1]

This of course is a separate topic, but I suggest reading more on catholic.com as to why the Scriptures were preserved in Latin, and how this dead language was used to ensure the correct meaning and understanding. Catholics in those days knew and believed the faith well and even to a far greater extent than Catholics today, as research studies have continually shown. Preserving the little ones from false teachings, heresies, and scandals weighed heavily in the eyes of the Church from her Apostolic origins and continued for century after century.

I would be interested to learn how this preservation was achieved through the medium of Latin because for most of the life of the Church the majority of the people have been illiterate and the vast majority could not speak Latin.

 

[Salibi]

Eastern rite Catholics on special occasions have absolutely entered into Latin prayers as a sign of their unity with the universal Catholic Church under the Apostolic See of Peter

They have absolutely not, and if you’re going to say Eastern Catholics abandoned their liturgical language as a sign of “unity” with the Catholic Church you’re gonna invoke the ire of every Easterner on the forums.

We are Catholics. Our Catholicity is not proven by whether we use Latin or not.

Prayer in Latin is a prayer in union with the rest of the Church in the same universal language she has prayed in since her inception.

From the article you posted^.

Jesus at the institution of the Sacrament of Eucharist prayed in Aramaic, not Latin. And considering that the Apostles most likely did not participate using Latin, we can say here that the Church most definitely did not use Latin at its inception. We get that you idolize Latin but you simply cannot distort history and trample over the Eastern Churches in your devotion to the language. Our Eastern languages are as ancient and some even more so than Latin.

 

[OraLabora]

The Catholic Church took up this same mantle

The Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, without the “Roman” qualifier, includes 22 other sui juris Churches in communion with Rome, that use, and have always used, other languages.

Latin is proper to the Roman Church, but as the Church has spread well beyond Western Europe, her bishops wisely elected, at the Second Vatican Council, and by a wide majority, to expand the use of the vernacular.

I fully appreciate the Latin patrimony of the Church. For the past 17 years I have belonged to a men’s Gregorian chant schola, and I sing the Liturgy of the Hours daily in Latin Gregorian chant.

But, I also fully recognize the legitimacy of the vernacular and support its use. Our abbey uses French plainchant for everything except the propers and ordinary in Latin/Greek Gregorian chant and Latin Lauds and Vespers. French plainchant, when well sung, is beautiful and is authentically Catholic. I imagine it’s the same in any language.

I certainly actively support the preservation and authentic liturgical use of our Latin patrimony as long as it doesn’t decline into idolatry. I also applaud Vatican II for wider use of the vernacular.

 

[OraLabora]

Babochka did not say what you quoted. Prayinglatin said it.

 

[Salibi]

I know that. I’m responding to prayinglatin from the article he posted, which babochka had posted on her post.

 

[babochka]

The Catholic Church took up this same mantle with sacred Latin and continued praying in this language for well over 1000 years after the language dropped out of any normal linguistic talk. Far from a weakness, as these popes and Saints have explained, it is this language’s greatest strength. A sacred language enables the faithful to pray in a language they only use for holy things, rather than the language people use in ordinary chatter, gossip, and swearing. The precision and meaning of the language also remains in tact.

The Church of Rome began to pray in Latin because it was the vernacular at the time and fewer and fewer people understood the Greek in which the Liturgy had originally been prayed. Whatever more it has become, its origins were less lofty.

Indeed those teachings stem not from individual opinion but from solemn teachings of popes and the tradition of the Catholic Church

True, those teachings do not come from individual opinion, but from the Tradition of the Church, which has been continually taught by the bishops, in union with the bishop of Rome, who is himself the servant and protector of that Tradition.

Eastern rite Catholics on special occasions have absolutely entered into Latin prayers as a sign of their unity with the universal Catholic Church under the Apostolic See of Peter, “the mother and teacher of all Churches.”

Eastern Catholics have entered into prayer in Latin on many special occasions, as well as more mundane occasions. Latin Catholics also regularly enter into prayer with Eastern Catholics, in our own ancient liturgical languages as well as the vernacular. It is not a particular rite or the language in which that rite is celebrated that is the sign of Communion; rather, it is the reality of our common celebration of the Eucharist.

Again, I’m not arguing to get rid of Latin. I was at an FSSP parish just this morning and I hold great affection for the Latin Rite, though I must admit to not being a fan of the EF (not because of the use of Latin). Latin has a special place within the Latin Rite and should be preserved.

Latin is also important to the tradition of the entire Church, as is Greek, the language of the Gospels and the language in which the early Councils formulated their precise theological definitions.

 

[twf]

Latin Catholics also regularly enter into prayer with Eastern Catholics, in our own ancient liturgical languages as well as the vernacular.

Actually, at solemn papal Masses, it is traditional for a deacon to chant the Gospel in Greek! And no this is not a post-Vatican II novelty…

And of course we also have the Kyrie as part of the standard ordinary of the Roman Rite Mass…

 

[babochka]

Actually, at solemn papal Masses, it is traditional for a deacon to chant the Gospel in Greek! And no this is not a post-Vatican II novelty…

And of course we also have the Kyrie as part of the standard ordinary of the Roman Rite Mass…

What a beautiful symbol of the universal nature of the Church!

 

[twf]

What a beautiful symbol of the universal nature of the Church!

Yes, the last time I personally remember noticing this was at Pope Francis’ inauguration Mass. I believe the deacon was some variety of Byzantine Catholic and he chanted the Gospel in Greek.

 

[OraLabora]

And of course we also have the Kyrie as part of the standard ordinary of the Roman Rite Mass…

And don’t forget the Greek Improperes in the Good Friday liturgy!

 

[dochawk]

you’re gonna invoke the ire of every Easterne

What’s with the future tense here, rather than the resent perfect?

I think that ship has sailed, with most of us bristling at the prejudice and condescension . . .

I believe the deacon was some variety of Byzantine Catholic and he chanted the Gospel in Greek.

The dusty cobwebs are in the way, but I think this is liturgically referred to as “the GreekDeacon” in that context . . .

 

[babochka]

What’s with the future tense here, rather than the resent perfect?

I think that ship has sailed, with most of us bristling at the prejudice and condescension . . .

Ya think?

The dusty cobwebs are in the way, but I think this is liturgically referred to as “the GreekDeacon” in that context . . .

I found a great article on the Vatican website. Not surprisingly, it contradicts the narrative that

Prayer in Latin is a prayer in union with the rest of the Church in the same universal language she has prayed in since her inception.

Here are a couple of excerpts:
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/ns_lit_doc_20091117_canto-vangelo_en.html

Greek was used in the liturgy; the use of Latin came in toward the fourth century; before the fourth century here and there the readings were customarily read in Greek, and afterwards translated into Latin; thus an almost bi-lingual Mass existed. Thus, the custom of proclaiming the readings of the Mass in Greek seems simply to have originated from the need to promote participation among those faithful who could not yet understand Latin

Nevertheless, the on-going development of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome, from the time of Saint Ignatius of Antioch who, in the second century, defines the Church of the City of Rome as the Church that “presides in charity,” and likewise that the universal Church is an organic body built on mutual charity, will have an influence on the preservation of certain parts of the Papal Liturgy in Greek – an indication of the Pope’s solicitude for the all the churches, in particular the Eastern Churches. For example, still today in the Roman Liturgy of Good Friday one sings the Greek chant known as the Trisagion , addressed to the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is thrice-holy, because He is God, the Strong One, the Immortal One, and has mercy on us.

Besides, this practice of chanting the Gospel in both Latin and Greek is always a manifestation of the sole Catholic Church, even when the Liturgy is celebrated in a particular community.

 

[SeraficLeo]

the Latin of classic use

While no doubt there almost had to be changes in pronunciation over time, you do have to wonder exactly how anyone could confidently claim to have reconstructed the actual sound and pronunciation that Cicero would have used. There’s no actual way to prove it, short of something miraculous maybe.

 

[babochka]

AngelusDomini:

the Latin of classic use

While no doubt there almost had to be changes in pronunciation over time, you do have to wonder exactly how anyone could confidently claim to have reconstructed the actual sound and pronunciation that Cicero would have used. There’s no actual way to prove it, short of something miraculous maybe.

Time travel, my friend, time travel.

 

[SeraficLeo]

Time travel, my friend, time travel.

Ah yes. I had forgotten (or perhaps I just didn’t remember it yet?)

 

[Salibi]

What’s with the future tense here, rather than the resent perfect?

I think that ship has sailed, with most of us bristling at the prejudice and condescension

Indeed. Prayinglatin’s article had me alternating between bouts of incredulity and fits of laughter. Did you know that the Devil is especially afraid of the Latin language? And that prayers said in Latin are magically more effective? As if prayer is a magic formula that needs supplements to its power. Did you also know that praying in Latin unites Catholics with their heritage? Not to mention that ostensibly the number of demon attacks has increased since the magical Latin language was dropped.

Unbelievable. Methinks it’s idolatry. Of a language.

 

[angel12]

Unbelievable. Methinks it’s idolatry. Of a language.

That’s exactly what we see here sometimes.

You like Latin? Fine.
You prefer to pray in Latin? Fine.
You ascribe magical powers to Latin? You need to look into what the Church says about superstition.

 

[Salibi]

Exactly.

And let’s not forget the part about Latin being somehow more pleasing to God than Aramaic, Greek, or Coptic… but all this, of course, is part of the wider “my Latin Rite is better than your Eastern one” trope.

 

[Shakuhachi]

I find myself bouncing around with languages. Sometimes it seems super cool to pray Psalms in Latin, But then read the NT with an interlinear Greek Bible. Or even a little Hebrew “Adonai!”. What ever it takes at a particular time to enliven my prayer.