Latin and You. Wherein Fr. Z Rants

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You never see Orthodox or Eastern Catholics having these arguments :roll_eyes: Maybe there’s something they retained that we haven’t. What could it be?

Edit: I read prior posts, but the thread seems to be a bit calmer. Wanted to comment on those earlier posts.
 
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CapitalistCatholic said:
You never see Orthodox or Eastern Catholics having these arguments :roll_eyes: Maybe there’s something they retained that we haven’t. What could it be?
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🤣😂🤣🤣🤣😂

We certainly have these arguments, but for different reasons.

“Too much Arabic!” “Too much Slavonic!” “Not enough Arabic!” " Can Father please just knock it off with the Arabic? We’ve been in America for three generations now! Nobody understands it." “Father, will you please use more Slavonic? We really love hearing the Slavonic?”

We also have our own very serious issues with translation, multiplied because each jurisdiction produces its own translations.

And… “This isn’t the way this is chanted in my Grandmother’s village in the old country. You’re doing it wrong!”

Don’t get us started on pews! We make this little squabble about Latin look sane. 😰
 
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Why not learn Greek, you know, the language the New Testament is written in. It’s not written in Latin.
 
Very true, and learning the Original Greek can really help in apologetics and betterment of understanding of the New Testament. At the same time, Latin is a part of our heritage as Latin Rite Catholics. Lose the Latin, and we lose our sense of direction and uniqueness in the world. The reason us “”"“Rad Trads”"""" like Latin so much is because it’s different from everyday life. It’s not everyday you hear “Et Cum Spiritu Tuo”.
 
That’s what you got from my posts? Are you sure you’re not confusing me with someone else?
I just asked a question. I find it fascinating that all ancient branches of Christianity have some form of chant… as well as Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc etc… I could only assume that religious chant, in the most generic sense, goes back thousands and thousands of years. You asserted that early Christians did not chant in any form period- it’s a strong claim. I made no claims, just asked a question.

Personally I’m a fan of English plainchant in the Mass, which is very common in these parts (on the part of priests that is)… chant does not equal Latin.
 
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He actually addressed your post in the comment section of that article. It’s clearly not what he meant, which was obvious to anyone who actually reads him regularly.
 
There’s a debate over the use of Liturgical Greek going on right now in the Greek Orthodox Church. The arguments on both sides are virtually identical to those going on in the Catholic Church.
 
There was nothing inappropriate or incompetent about the translation. The Western Church had been using a Latin version of the Creed for some time when the filioque was inserted, and it made perfect sense to those who spoke the language. Perhaps the Greek Church should just have accepted that the Latins knew their own language and what it meant. St. Maximus the Confessor clearly understood this.
 
Well he says it is not what he meant but it is what he said. And what a bunch of aggressive, content-free, name-calling and uncharitable responses to hat people on CAF have said!
 
Please explain how when we “lose the Latin, we lose our sense of direction and uniqueness in the world.”

First, our direction comes from the Holy Spirit guiding us, along with our priests who pray Mass for us, and our teachers who teach us what Holy Mother Church teaches. Also, the prayers of the saints, especially our patron saints, and also the prayers of the Blessed Mother, help give us our “direction” for each day and for all of our lives.

As for a sense of “uniqueness” in this world–we are unique because we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who from the beginning of time was destined to die to pay the penalty for our sins, and rise again that we might have the hope of everlasting life. No other “religion” serves a Risen Savior.

I personally think it hinders our Church growth when other people think “Catholic–or yes, they’re the people who chant in Latin.” Why would that draw anyone to Jesus?

Hopefully not that many people, at least in the United States, when they think “Catholic” they automatically think “Latin.” Hopefully, when people think "Catholic, they think, “Love, Joy, Charity, Goodness, Meekness, Self-Control, faith-filled, loyal, non-judgmental, self-sacrificing, wise, deep, selfless, generous, creative, prayerful, steadfast…” These virtues are what draws people to Jesus and His Church. For some, the Latin might be just an added bonus, but Latin is not the reason people give their lives to Jesus Christ and ask Him to be the Lord of their lives and make them fit for an eternity in heaven.
 
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Peeps said:
Please explain how when we “lose the Latin, we lose our sense of direction and uniqueness in the world.”
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Latin is a non changing language, a dead language. It is like a safeguard that protects what we believe. In other languages meanings of words can change. As those words change peoples beliefs change also.

We need to be one and all believe the doctrines and dogmas of the faith and if we all have different ideas on what words mean, we do not all have the same belief. We are no longer one.

While it is true that the Holy Spirit guides us we need to be free from man’s personal interpretations of what that guidance is.

While it is true that those virtues you mention should be who we are and how we live there needs to be a guidance in just how to live out those virtues.

Latin is the official language of the Church for a reason. It keeps us on the right track.

It keeps us “one”, which is what Jesus prayed we would be.
Peeps said:
I personally think it hinders our Church growth when other people think “Catholic–or yes, they’re the people who chant in Latin.” Why would that draw anyone to Jesus?
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I am not good with Latin, but over the years have learned a little at a time and continue to work to learn more and I find it beautiful and I find it does draw me closer to Jesus because it draws me closer to the Church where He is uniquely found in the Eucharist.
 
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MagdalenaRita said:
Latin is a non changing language, a dead language. It is like a safeguard that protects what we believe. In other languages meanings of words can change. As those words change peoples beliefs change also.

We need to be one and all believe the doctrines and dogmas of the faith and if we all have different ideas on what words mean, we do not all have the same belief. We are no longer one.

While it is true that the Holy Spirit guides us we need to be free from man’s personal interpretations of what that guidance is.

While it is true that those virtues you mention should be who we are and how we live there needs to be a guidance in just how to live out those virtues.

Latin is the official language of the Church for a reason. It keeps us on the right track.

It keeps us “one”, which is what Jesus prayed we would be.
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But…if you don’t understand Latin, which most Catholics don’t (and honestly now, most Catholics throughout history didn’t understand Latin), how can you learn truth from it?!

You have to trust that the translator is getting it right and not adding his/her own personal interpretation.

The Church documents and the Mass have been translated by trustworthy people into the vernacular. Is learning about our Church and our beliefs through these translations not as good as hearing or reading them in a language we don’t understand?

I keep thinking back to the first 47 years of my life as an Evangelical Protestant, and how often my Catholic friends and I would get into a discussion, and they knew NOTHING about what their Church teaches, other than going to Mass and receiving Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. They didn’t know any Bible, including the wonderful history of our faith that begins in the very first book of the Bible (Genesis) and continues through the entire Bible. Many of my Catholic friends didn’t even have a Bible in their home! And they didn’t know what the doctrines of their Church were, although they did give me a list of “rules and regulations.”

I wonder what would have happened if I had met up with a Catholic who had spent a lot of time studying the Bible and learning their Catechism and had a solid knowledge of Church history and apologetics–I might have become Catholic decades sooner!

I’m not trying to tell anyone how to live their life. Like I said earlier, if it’s something you love and have time for, go for it and God bless your work! But for a priest to say that everyone should learn it–it’s kind of off-putting.
 
Peeps said:
the Mass have been translated by trustworthy people into the vernacular.
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Right, at least three times. And then it took committees to arrive at a consensus. But on the bright side the ICEL has the copyrights and is able to collect royalties.
 
So what I got when reading the article is not so much that everyone needs to know Latin but that the priests should at least know Latin and that lay people can learn some Latin. It is never too late to learn anything. It is our history, our language.

I also got from the article is that since the priests are not really learning the official language of the Church, it is leading the faithful in too many different directions because yes, learning about our Church in different languages is not as good as learning it one universal language.

Probably a good reason many didn’t know the faith is not due to language but due to a lack of catechesis that started many many years ago. There are many, many saints of the past who did spend a lot of time studying the Bible, their catechism, Church history and yes Latin. Sadly though like I said catechesis and learning stopped.

On a side note, even early American public schools used to teach Latin. Many reasons is because it is the foundation of so many other languages, making spelling, English and reading easier.

The medical profession uses Latin for the very reason it is a dead language, maintaining a standard vocabulary.
 
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