Latin and You. Wherein Fr. Z Rants

[ProVobis]

even early American public schools used to teach Latin

Interestingly enough Boris Johnson called the discontinuation of teaching Latin “absurd” and he is not even Catholic.

Boris Johnson hits out at 'absurd decline of Latin in state schools’

The Mayor is pressing Tory high command to reverse the "absurd" decline of Latin in state schools.

www.standard.co.uk

Boris Johnson lobbies Tories to add Latin to state-school curriculum

Mayor convening City Hall event for headteachers to press case for ancient language

www.theguardian.com

 

[dochawk]

Personally I’m a fan of English plainchant in the Mass, which is very common in these parts (on the part of priests that is)… chant does not equal Latin.

The shrine here has gotten slavonic plainchant in English more than one as Father has lapsed into it out of habit when covering Masses for them . . . generally, they love it when it happens . . .

The Roman Canon was written in Latin.

Was it?

I’m being serious–doesn’t it date to about the second century, which would be before the diocese of Rome switched to Latin? Or is it later. I just can’t remember . . .

 

[ProVobis]

I’m being serious–doesn’t it date to about the second century, which would be before the diocese of Rome switched to Latin? Or is it later. I just can’t remember

For all I know the Roman Canon could have been written by the Greeks who were well versed and comfortable in Latin. But if it’s a translation, where’s the original? Today we have four Eucharist Prayers all having been promulgated in Latin but claimed to have origins in early century canons. I guess it might be of interest to find out what language they were written in and whether today’s Latin translated them literally or dynamically.

 

[13pollitos]

Latin is a non changing language, a dead language. It is like a safeguard that protects what we believe. In other languages meanings of words can change. As those words change peoples beliefs change also.

This is quite an interesting way explaining things. Thank you for that.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

Let’s say for a second that Latin isn’t as important as you say. Let’s forget about it then. While we’re at it, maybe the Greek Orthodox Church should give up on using greek. “Theotokos”? Hah, I think you mean Mother of God. We’re Latin Catholics, and I don’t see why the secular world shouldn’t look at us and say, “They’re those joyful, loving, charitable people who often speak Latin in their liturgy!”

 

[YourNameHere]

I have read the Bible from cover to cover. I have yet to find the part in there where everything should be said in Latin.
Those of you who want to pray in Latin, go for it.
But please do not minimize those of us who pray in our native tongue.
God hears all languages.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

No one’s minimizing those who are comfortable with the vernacular. I think we’re just saying that learning Latin and maybe praying some in Latin may help with spirituality. Vernacular is fine.

 

[OraLabora]

My main attachment to Latin is because of the huge patrimony of sacred music in Latin, in particular Gregorian chant of which I’m a big fan. It would be a shame to lose it, and using it outside of the liturgy is not ideal. It would be like using the Bible as a book club reading. It really belongs in the liturgy.

That said, I don’t think it’s practical to be able to use it everywhere other than perhaps the simplest chants of the Ordinary. Pride of place does not mean “in every place, every time”. Monasteries, Rome, and some specialist scholas like the one I belong to, certainly give Gregorian chant “pride of place”. And even with our schola, we have to give out chant in small doses. Even once a month at a parish proved too much, so we once a month at a parish, but a different parish each month. That way parishes hear us maybe once ever 1-2 years, one parish that is keener maybe once every 6 months. We become for them, a special occasion to look forward to. That is what “pride of place” means: special.

Nor do I think widespread use of Latin is realistic in this era, other than a few simple, easy-to-learn Ordinary chants. I do believe, however, that tradition is fluid, and that vernacular plainchant is a most appropriate evolution of a “tradition” that adapts itself to the current reality.

Gregorian chant takes effort and training and very few people seem to be willing to step up to the plate and invest of themselves. As I’ve said before the Vatican does not have a squadron of C-130s flying the skies filled with Gregorian paratroopers ready to drop into your parish and provide you with instant, professional Gregorian chant. So again, I invite those who want more Latin, more chant, to step up to the plate and form or join a schola. It turned out to be one of the most spiritually rewarding things I’ve ever done.

 

[JimG]

I like to hear the “Panis Angelicus” sung in Latin by the children’s choir.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I have read the Bible from cover to cover. I have yet to find the part in there where everything should be said in Latin.
Those of you who want to pray in Latin, go for it.
But please do not minimize those of us who pray in our native tongue.
God hears all languages.

I think it is great that you have read the Bible from cover to cover. As Catholics we always read the Bible in light of Church teaching. I Timothy 3:15 states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and Jesus told his disciples when there are disagreements to take it to the Church.

Also as Catholics we also follow Tradition along with Scripture. Vatican II states that Scripture and Tradition “merge into a unity” and Traditionally Latin is the official language of the Catholic Church.

Yes, God does hear all languages when we pray, always, but because Latin is a “dead” non changing language, it protects what we believe. In all other languages meanings can change and as those meanings change, beliefs change. We can see that happening very much today in our culture.

The main point of the article, I saw, was that priests are not learning Latin as they should be and that there is room for lay people to learn some Latin also.

 

[prayerrider]

Amazing how quickly the Traditional Latin Mass bashing reared up on this thread.

 

[YourNameHere]

And all I am saying is that there really is no need to learn Latin.
Neither priests or lay people need to learn Latin.
What is needed if for people to give praise and glory to God, and to love and serve one another as brothers and sisters. That has nothing to do with learning Latin. Render unto God what is God’s, render unto those who wish to speak Latin, Latin. Amen

 

[ProVobis]

Latin and the other things you mentioned are not mutually exclusive. Are you suggesting learning Latin comes at the expense of giving love to God and our neighbors?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

What is needed if for people to give praise and glory to God, and to love and serve one another as brothers and sisters

You are absolutely right here, we need to give praise and glory to God and love one another. No argument there.

And all I am saying is that there really is no need to learn Latin.
Neither priests or lay people need to learn Latin.

but this we will have to disagree on. We can certainly praise God and love others and still study our faith and learn our Latin roots and the learn the words and phrases in the language used to write so many of our Catholic documents and so many beautiful prayers.

You’re right you personally do not have to, but even Vatican II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis have encouraged the study of Latin and especially for our priests.

 

[Peeps]

I think that it would be wonderful if the world could see us and say as you said–“joyful, loving charitable people who use Latin in their liturgy.”

It’s fine to use Latin in the liturgy. But to expect that Catholics will learn Latin–even to expect the priests to learn it–is pushing it, IMO. We have a shortage of priests–why put up more roadblocks? There will be plenty of men who, like me, struggle to learn foreign languages and will be discouraged during their seminary years.

Yes, God can help them through it and even perform miracles with some to help them learn Latin, but wouldn’t it be best to require priests to learn thoroughly only the Latin they need to pray the Mass, and encourage them to learn more if they have the ability to do so?

Those young men who are called to be priests in parishes that use the EF of the Mass will probably already have an aptitude for learning Latin and a love of the ancient language which was one of the factors that drew them to the EF of the Mass.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

There will be plenty of men who, like me, struggle to learn foreign languages and will be discouraged during their seminary years.

Are you considering studying for the priesthood? You are right, we do need priests.

Yes, God can help them through it and even perform miracles with some to help them learn Latin, but wouldn’t it be best to require priests to learn thoroughly only the Latin they need to pray the Mass, and encourage them to learn more if they have the ability to do so?

I think this is definitely true, and God will help them through it and through all they need to learn in the seminary.

 

[goout]

I’m curious if anyone knows what the official languages are of the other 22 Catholic Churches faithful to Rome.

1. Latin Rite Catholic Church official language is…Latin
2. c’mon you nerds we need answers

 

[Emeraldlady]

And all I am saying is that there really is no need to learn Latin.
Neither priests or lay people need to learn Latin.
What is needed if for people to give praise and glory to God, and to love and serve one another as brothers and sisters. That has nothing to do with learning Latin. Render unto God what is God’s, render unto those who wish to speak Latin, Latin. Amen

That sums up my perspective perfectly also. In this third millenium of Christianity, the eschatological age, contemplating on end times concern; death, judgement, and the final destiny of the soul and of humankind, I’m more drawn to the original traditional intimacy of liturgy and the more visible expression of Christian action out in the world. Similar to the early Christians and their house Church liturgies which gave them the grace of charisms to “go forth and teach all nations.” Obsessing at this point on the ‘accessories’ of liturgy at the expense of outreach into the world as was Jesus and the Apostles main concern, seems redundant in this eschatological age.

 

[vsedriver]

For your Cult, Code and Creed, you are enslaved to translations, which do not provide the riches of the original content

I guess this means I have to learn ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic because I’m now enslaved to translations of the Bible.

 

[Peeps]

Are you considering studying for the priesthood? You are right, we do need priests

No! I’m a lady!

But I don’t do well with foreign languages.