Latin: Divisive or Unitive

[freiabereinsam]

I think we’re asking the wrong question here.

And as far as not being able to understand the Mass, that shouldn’t matter. Something is very wrong when the Church has to go along with the congregation (in this case about making Mass simpler, more “everyday”) rather than the reverse.

On an off-topic note: the idea of Mass in any language other than Latin, at least as far as the West is concerned, was a Protestant invention.

 

[EphelDuath]

Sadly a great many were not. Sure they tried to follow along with the missalettes, but why? Why not use the vernacular? Many gave up and simply prayed the Rosary during the Mass.

Sacrosanctum Concilium vindicated the Liturgical Movement, which implored people to understand the Mass and pray it, not just attend it. Sadly many still adhere to the “didactic fallacy” and believe that there’s no efficacy in the liturgy unless it’s heard and understood by all – thus relegating the Sacrifice of the Mass as an act of worship to a public ceremony, if taken to its logical terminus.

Your sentiments that there’s no point in the Latin is severely contradicted by Pope Bl. John XIII, who gave an impassioned defense for liturgical Latin. Might I suggest you read it: adoremus.org/VeterumSapientia.html

*Finally, the Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular.

In addition, the Latin language "can be called truly catholic."10 It has been consecrated through constant use by the Apostolic See, the mother and teacher of all Churches, and must be esteemed "a treasure … of incomparable worth."11. It is a general passport to the proper understanding of the Christian writers of antiquity and the documents of the Church’s teaching.12 It is also a most effective bond, binding the Church of today with that of the past and of the future in wonderful continuity.*

Naw. You’re simply trying to justify the use of Latin. Just imagine if a missalette was required to follow the Mass in the vernacular.

It’s truly a shame that I have to “justify” use of Latin, since that’s the mother tongue of Our Mother Church.

Not really, no.

Don’t know what to tell you. Having a truly interactive bilingual community without common worship is, except in somewhat extraordinary circumstances, just a facade. There is just two communities that occupy the same space. Language barriers are hard to overcome.

Why not? I seriously doubt you’re fluent in Latin either.

Who says you have to be aurally fluent in Latin to understand the liturgy? If you’re properly catechized then you already know what’s going on, even if you can’t translate the words in your head on the spot. If you’re improperly catechized then you don’t know what’s going on, even if the words happen to be in your language.

 

[ProVobis]

…It’s clear this was done so that people could worship God in their own language.

When did that notion become wrong?

The notion became questionable when it was obvious that Anglophones couldn’t understand the Mass even in their own language. Have you checked the U.S. reading scores lately?

Strangely enough, those who studied Latin had higher SAT scores.

bolchazy.com/al/latadv.htm

 

[Lormar]

I think every Catholic should at least know the main prayers of the Mass in Latin, as well as how to say the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be. There is no harm in doing so.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Can anyone here read an encyclical in Latin without a dictionary?

 

[HB11]

:thumbsup:I agree.

I think every Catholic should at least know the main prayers of the Mass in Latin, as well as how to say the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be. There is no harm in doing so.

 

[Cat]

I think every Catholic should at least know the main prayers of the Mass in Latin, as well as how to say the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be. There is no harm in doing so.

Why?

I agree, there’s no harm, but why know these prayers in Latin? What is the benefit?

 

[Lormar]

Then everyone could pray in a unified tongue should the need arise.

We used to have to take Latin in school - it was a two year required course at the girls’ academy I attended. It also wouldn’t hurt to have at least one year of it in Catholic school.

Latin is the official language of the Church you know.

 

[Baelor]

Latin is the official language of the Catholic (=universal) Church.

I fail to see how it could be divisive. It is by construction unitive, selected for that reason (not preferring any modern language to another).

 

[Bergon]

I’m not voting. I honestly don’t see how Latin, or any other language, can unite or divide the Church. Some will argue that Latin, if used everywhere, means that we always celebrate Mass in a language we know. But, how many of us know Latin. I think I could follow Mass in most languages. I don’t, obviously, speak most languages but you can follow what’s going on. I wouldn’t be able to participate in a Latin Mass any more than I could in, say, German. English no problem and French probably wouldn’t be one. Any other language and I’d be lost other than knowing what’s happening. Latin would be of no more help to me than Gallician.

 

[Cat]

Then everyone could pray in a unified tongue should the need arise.

We used to have to take Latin in school - it was a two year required course at the girls’ academy I attended. It also wouldn’t hurt to have at least one year of it in Catholic school.

Latin is the official language of the Church you know.

What need do you see arising that would make praying in a unified tongue a necessity?

What would be the reason for requiring a year of Latin in Catholic schools?

Yes, I know that Latin is the official language of the Church. That means that the official business of the Church is conducted in Latin. But the prayers that you mentioned are not “official business.” They are private devotions, so why would Latin make them “better?”

I am asking these questions in all seriousness. I’ll be honest with you, Lormar. I think that sometimes, Catholics recite certain phrases without giving them a lot of thought. Have you thought about what you are saying? I would appreciate knowing your thoughts.

 

[Phemie]

What need do you see arising that would make praying in a unified tongue a necessity?

What would be the reason for requiring a year of Latin in Catholic schools?

Yes, I know that Latin is the official language of the Church. That means that the official business of the Church is conducted in Latin. But the prayers that you mentioned are not “official business.” They are private devotions, so why would Latin make them “better?”

I am asking these questions in all seriousness. I’ll be honest with you, Lormar. I think that sometimes, Catholics recite certain phrases without giving them a lot of thought. Have you thought about what you are saying? I would appreciate knowing your thoughts.

The Lord’s Prayer is part of Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours. I wish I could recite it in Latin without a cheat sheet, but until I can accomplish that I think I’ll make sure I have my copy of Jubilate Deo with me when I go to a Mass that features Latin.

It’s hard to explain how right it felt to have the Ordinary in Latin when I was in at Mass the last couple of Sundays. It’s not that I long to go back to '62, I really don’t. I have no burning desire for the EF all the time, or ever if it comes right down to it. But I’ve lived the before and after and I know what we’ve lost. I felt that I’d recovered the sacred at those Masses.

 

[Lormar]

What need do you see arising that would make praying in a unified tongue a necessity?

What would be the reason for requiring a year of Latin in Catholic schools?

Yes, I know that Latin is the official language of the Church. That means that the official business of the Church is conducted in Latin. But the prayers that you mentioned are not “official business.” They are private devotions, so why would Latin make them “better?”

I am asking these questions in all seriousness. I’ll be honest with you, Lormar. I think that sometimes, Catholics recite certain phrases without giving them a lot of thought. Have you thought about what you are saying? I would appreciate knowing your thoughts.

Cat, I do know what I am saying because I am no stranger to Latin. I am no expert in it though, but I certainly know when I pray the Hail Mary privately in Latin what I am saying, or when I recite the Apostles Creed, or the Our Father.

You don’t need to pray in Latin to give no thought to your prayers. Reciting them in English can be just as mindless an act.

When I took Latin in high school, I was amazed to find out how many English words derive from Latin. In fact, it is often easy to figure out what a Latin word means because it often times resembles its English equivalent.

I don’t believe I ever wrote that Latin would make praying better. If I did say that, I was thinking of an instance such as WYD when you have people from many different cultures and countries gathered together, it would be a good expression of the unity in the Church for everyone to pray some prayers in the common language of the Church.

There is nothing wrong with praying in English, so please do not think I am against it.

This is just my opinion which isn’t going to make a bit of difference in the Church since I have yet to receive a phone call, or an email, from the Holy Father asking me what I think. I’m not trying to get you to agree with me.

 

[ProVobis]

But, how many of us know Latin.

There are schools, formal and now online, which teach it. Just like English or German.

But, as someone suggested, you don’t have to be a Latin scholar. The Mass contains only about 600 distinct Latin words and in the EF, you can’t hear most of them. Yet people were able to understand the Mass using the old Missal for over 400 years. Even during the war, soldiers from all sides were known to drop their weapons and worship together.

 

[ProVobis]

The Lord’s Prayer is part of Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours. I wish I could recite it in Latin without a cheat sheet, but until I can accomplish that I think I’ll make sure I have my copy of Jubilate Deo with me when I go to a Mass that features Latin.

Speaking of Jubilate Deo,

adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

In April 1974 Pope Paul VI sent to every bishop in the world a booklet of some of the simplest selections of Gregorian Chant, much of it drawn from the Graduale Romanum. This booklet, called Jubilate Deo, was intended as a “minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant”. It is, in other words, an official Latin “core repertoire” for the Roman Rite. It was prepared, the Pope said, in order “to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living tradition of the past. Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing cannot refuse Gregorian chant the place which is due to it” (Voluntati Obsequens).

There you go. From the Pope himself.

 

[Bergon]

There are schools, formal and now online, which teach it. Just like English or German.

But, as someone suggested, you don’t have to be a Latin scholar. The Mass contains only about 600 distinct Latin words and in the EF, you can’t hear most of them. Yet people were able to understand the Mass using the old Missal for over 400 years. Even during the war, soldiers from all sides were known to drop their weapons and worship together.

I don’t dispute that we can learn Latin.

Personally, I prefer to worship God in a language I know. If you go to Mass in another language you can still follow along because Mass is mostly the same the world over. In that sense I could probably participate in Mass in Mandarin. Therefore, we don’t need Latin as a unifying language. I just prefer to know what I’m saying or singing.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t dispute that we can learn Latin…
I just prefer to know what I’m saying or singing.

It’s a circular, if not self-serving, argument so I’m not going to debate you further.

 

[Urn]

I think the Mass itself is unitive. I usually attend the OF Mass, but I attended an EF once. I didn’t understand the language, but I knew it’s a Catholic sacred liturgy celebrated by countless others around the world.

On the other hand, **I think it’s the people’s opinions (including mine) that’re divisive.**I think this is where we can learn something from religious life.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Having things like the Kyrie Eleison in Greek with the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in Latin during the celebration of the OF Mass is a very nice touch in my opinion.

But to try to sell me the Mass in Latin as a “unifying” thing? No way.

 

[Phemie]

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Having things like the Kyrie Eleison in Greek with the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in Latin during the celebration of the OF Mass is a very nice touch in my opinion.

But to try to sell me the Mass in Latin as a “unifying” thing? No way.

You don’t consider it unifying that we have a common language? That even if you have 20 languages present, saying the Lord’s Prayer in Latin allows everyone to recite it in the same language even if they have to read it?

 

[Bergon]

It’s a circular, if not self-serving, argument so I’m not going to debate you further.

I was making two different points that is why they were in separate paragraphs. It doesn’t seem to be helpful to pull phrases out of their context.