Latin? In MY Mass?

[Cat]

If Latin is introduced in the New Missal, it would not be difficult to learn the new Latin phrases. This is supposed to be such an enlightened and well educated society, it is foolish to think one would have a difficult time learning a little Latin.

Well, foolish or not, that’s the way I am.

I’ve never been good at learning foreign phrases out of context with the rest of the language. To me, it’s like learning Klingon or Elvin–it doesn’t make sense. It’s just gibberish, meaningless syllables. I understand that the syllables mean something, but only because others tell me that they mean something. But since I have no context, I just have to memorize the meanings of the phrases, and that’s hard for me. Lucky you if it comes easily to you.

Perhaps you would understand the way I feel if you tried to memorize the names and characteristics of 30 different bacteria. (The names are derived from Latin, by the way.) Here’s a list:

Escherichia coli
Klebsiella pneumoniae
Enterobacter aerogenes
Enterobacter cloacae
Proteus mirabilis
Stenotropomonas maltophilia
Acintebacter lwoffi
etc.

I didn’t list the characteristics. But I think it’s safe to say that many people in this enlightened land of the U.S. would have a little trouble memorizing these and 23 more names of bacteria. For me, it’s simple stuff–I have worked with bacteria in the hospital lab for more than 30 years now. To me, these names are little creatures, and I can recognize them on petri plates of agar. I know what they look like, feel like, smell like. They’re not “foreign” to me.

But others can’t even imagine what they look like, so the names are just gibberish to them.

Perhaps if we were all taught the grammar and syntax of Latin throughout our childhood so that the phrases weren’t just snatches of meaningless syllables, we would all do better at learning and appreciating the phrases. But that’s not the way things are in the U.S. at this time. Even the private prep school that my children attended didn’t offer Latin until high school, although they required French from age 3 up through middle school.

Just because a society is enlightened and well-educated (that, BTW, is doubtful–many studies show that the average American reads at about a 6th grade reading level) doesn’t mean that we are good with foreign languages. There are different kinds of intelligence (I’ve read articles that describe 7 kinds of intelligence), and not all of these kinds of intelligence make a person good at learning foreign phrases.

I hope this helps to explain why so many of us have a hard time learning Latin phrases.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Cat these are Latin prayers like any prayer in a foriegn language it is a prayer and not hard to learn. You don’t have to understand the whole Latin language to understand these prayers and what they mean in your own language. Nor is it necessary to learn the whole of the Mass we’re only talking about a handful of prayers here. After you have sung the Pater Noster a few times in Latin you start to memorize it, you start to learn what the Latin is saying and hopefully you will see how beautiful it is, and it certainly isn’t as hard as memorizing a list of bacteria in Latin.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Cat these are Latin prayers like any prayer in a foriegn language it is a prayer and not hard to learn. You don’t have to understand the whole Latin language to understand these prayers and what they mean in your own language. Nor is it necessary to learn the whole of the Mass we’re only talking about a handful of prayers here. After you have sung the Pater Noster a few times in Latin you start to memorize it, you start to learn what the Latin is saying and hopefully you will see how beautiful it is, and it certainly isn’t as hard as memorizing a list of bacteria in Latin.

But why should anyone have to go through these linguistic gymnastics when praying in the vernacular is just as holy and acceptable to God?

In fact, I’d go so far as to say that praying in the vernacular is probably more holy and acceptable, because the person is connected to the prayer more deeply using his/her own language.

Jim

 

[ElizabethPH]

But why should anyone have to go through these linguistic gymnastics when praying in the vernacular is just as holy and acceptable to God?

In fact, I’d go so far as to say that praying in the vernacular is probably more holy and acceptable, because the person is connected to the prayer more deeply using his/her own language.

Jim

Because it’s the universal language of the Church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Because it’s the universal language of the Church.

Only in the official sense, but even there in today’s world, Italian is used in the Vatican more than Latin.

Latin isn’t the required language for prayer.

Jim

 

[ElizabethPH]

Only in the official sense, but even there in today’s world, Italian is used in the Vatican more than Latin.

Latin isn’t the required language for prayer.

Jim

I still will defend the little Latin we have left in the Church. And here in the states more English is said then Latin. I am very blessed our parish gives us a choice in our Masses, from Gregorian Chant to to folk Mass.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Cat these are Latin prayers like any prayer in a foriegn language it is a prayer and not hard to learn. You don’t have to understand the whole Latin language to understand these prayers and what they mean in your own language. Nor is it necessary to learn the whole of the Mass we’re only talking about a handful of prayers here. After you have sung the Pater Noster a few times in Latin you start to memorize it, you start to learn what the Latin is saying and hopefully you will see how beautiful it is, and it certainly isn’t as hard as memorizing a list of bacteria in Latin.

I wonder why is there such an insistence that people remain oblivious to the Liturgy and simply memorize phrases to a foreign language just so they can follow along. Where’s the participation in that? What’s the point in that? Please enlighten me.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Because it’s the universal language of the Church.

It is not the universal language of the Church.

It is the official language of only 1 of the 22 Churches in the Catholic Church.

 

[Carlan]

My current parish we sing the Agnus Dei and sometimes sing a Latin Hymnal (Panis Angelicus)

I love the Latin Panis Angelicus( Bread of Angels). I always wish our Gregorian Chanters at our Vigil Mass would sing it during Communion. If you are listening! Peace, Carlan

 

[malphono]

It is not the universal language of the Church.

It is the official language of only 1 of the 22 Churches in the Catholic Church.

Well, like it or not, it is the official administrative language of the Church as a whole. Guess which language the CCEO was promulgated in?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well, like it or not, it is the official administrative language of the Church as a whole. Guess which language the CCEO was promulgated in?

Weak argument. CCEO is a Roman document. Its not like the Chaldean or Coptic Churches are promulgating their own documents in Latin.

 

[malphono]

Weak argument. CCEO is a Roman document. Its not like the Chaldean or Coptic Churches are promulgating their own documents in Latin.

I know very well what the CCEO is. And, no, it is not a “weak argument” but is, rather, simply a statement of fact. I said “administrative language of the Church as a whole” meaning the “central authority” for lack of a better expression off-hand.

Just because one is among those that hate Latin doesn’t mean that it’s necessary to constantly and incessantly degrade it or, for that matter, any other of the traditional liturgical languages used in the various Churches sui juris.

 

[ElizabethPH]

I wonder why is there such an insistence that people remain oblivious to the Liturgy and simply memorize phrases to a foreign language just so they can follow along. Where’s the participation in that? What’s the point in that? Please enlighten me.

I’m sorry I am not insisting on anything. I’m not going to cram Latin down your throat so don’t be afraid. I’m not a good arguer and leave that up to the experts. I just have a love for Latin and I sing chant, so I am moved to try and defend it. But I also see where that is futal. I only am defending what little Latin is left. I’m not talking about EF Mass and the whole of the liturgy here. Only the few prayers that may be said in the OF Mass. They are not hard to know or to understand. But if you don’t want to, thats OK, I’m afraid it will take someone better than I to enlighten you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I know very well what the CCEO is. And, no, it is not a “weak argument” but is, rather, simply a statement of fact. I said “administrative language of the Church as a whole” meaning the “central authority” for lack of a better expression off-hand.

Just because one is among those that hate Latin doesn’t mean that it’s necessary to constantly and incessantly degrade it or, for that matter, any other of the traditional liturgical languages used in the various Churches sui juris.

LOL. I really love how you guys always accuse people who don’t accept your view of Latin as Latin-haters even though when we’re not.

No, its still not the administrative language of the Church as a whole, just of Rome. So if Rome will send out a decree to the entire Church, it would be translated to Latin, then from Latin to other languages. But that doesn’t mean the other Churches use Latin. It just means its the standard of Rome.

Of course you already knew that. You just have to say it in a way that defends your personal opinion on the matter.

 

[Brendan]

But why should anyone have to go through these linguistic gymnastics when praying in the vernacular is just as holy and acceptable to God?

In fact, I’d go so far as to say that praying in the vernacular is probably more holy and acceptable, because the person is connected to the prayer more deeply using his/her own language.

Jim

Because it’s charity to the international visitor.

I used to travel globally for work. As such I have attended Mass in close to two dozen countries, as varied as Germany, France, Turkey, Brazil, Tanzania and Korea.

Parishes in those countries were welcoming enough to have Mass in Latin, so that I could pray together with everyone else in the parish.

From what I have seen from several people on this board is pretty much “Screw the visitor! I’m going to pray in my language because that is what I WANT, if some guy is visiting from another country, he had better know English, or else I don’t want him fully participating in this Mass with me”

Yea, a real Christian attitude there.

A more Christian response is to do what the Church has suggested since Vatican II. Learn the parts of the Mass that pertain to us so that we might say them in Latin.

Then, when someone comes to our parish who is unfamiliar with English, we can do the Christian thing and offer to pray together in a common language.

Anything else is just plain selfishness.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Because it’s charity to the international visitor.

I used to travel globally for work. As such I have attended Mass in close to two dozen countries, as varied as Germany, France, Turkey, Brazil, Tanzania and Korea.

Parishes in those countries were welcoming enough to have Mass in Latin, so that I could pray together with everyone else in the parish.

From what I have seen from several people on this board is pretty much “Screw the visitor! I’m going to pray in my language because that is what I WANT, if some guy is visiting from another country, he had better know English, or else I don’t want him fully participating in this Mass with me”

Yea, a real Christian attitude there.

A more Christian response is to do what the Church has suggested since Vatican II. Learn the parts of the Mass that pertain to us so that we might say them in Latin.

Then, when someone comes to our parish who is unfamiliar with English, we can do the Christian thing and offer to pray together in a common language.

Anything else is just plain selfishness.

Question, what makes your needs as a visitor more important than the needs of the multitudes of locals who may not appreciate Latin? Isn’t that selfishness on your part that you want something you understand and that the locals themselves may not appreciate? Was the local church established for visitors or locals?

 

[ElizabethPH]

It is not the universal language of the Church.

It is the official language of only 1 of the 22 Churches in the Catholic Church.

I am from the Latin rite so I speak of the Church in that respect. I am sorry to have forgotten about all the other rites. But I can always count on you to remind me.

Peace

 

[ElizabethPH]

I love the Latin Panis Angelicus( Bread of Angels). I always wish our Gregorian Chanters at our Vigil Mass would sing it during Communion. If you are listening! Peace, Carlan

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am from the Latin rite so I speak of the Church in that respect. I am sorry to have forgotten about all the other rites. But I can always count on you to remind me.

Peace

When you say “universal” there is no such thing as, “I come from the X Rite” or “X sui juris”. Universal means for all, everywhere. Therefore its false to say Latin is the universal language of the Church.

To say that universal is limited to 1 of 22 rites is an oxymoron. How can one be universal and yet only apply to 1/22nd of the whole?

 

[Carlan]

God hears prayer whether said or sung in any language.
I pray using my rosary beads the Little Rosary of the Divine Will and I pray it in Latin,
Try it God will love it!

The Little Rosary Of The Divine Will.​

Our Father…,Hail Mary…,
Glory Be.
On the small beads:
Thy Will be done on earth
as it is in Heaven.

Or in Latin:
Fiat Voluntas Tua, sicut in Coelo et in terra.

On the large beads:
Glory Be…

In conclusion, you will pray:
My Lord Jesus Christ, I love You,
I praise You, I adore You and I thank You,
who are God with the Father and the Holy
Spirit, in your Holy and Eternal Divine Will.
Amen.
By St. Hannibal M. Di Francia in1927
in a letter to Luisa Piccarreta

Peace, Carlan