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edwest211
Guest
We had Latin taught at the local Catholic high school until it stopped in the early 1970s.
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edwest211
Guest
Yes, Trent allows for such a mass but it is not the only form.
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Phemie
Guest
Not until the end of Vat. II did a large number of us experience a dialogue Mass.
In my neck of the Canadian woods a lot of people found it very difficult to adapt to giving responses at Mass. They had never spoken in Church and it felt wrong to them to do so, regardless of the fact that it was in their own language. We’d also never sung hymns and in my childhood parish the assembly still doesn’t.
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Phemie
Guest
That was already happening before the start of the Council. Society was changing and I don’t think the upheaval we saw in the 60s was due to Vatican II.
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edwest211
Guest
The radicals began founding groups right after Vatican II ended. It would be “blame it on Vatican II.” Society doesn’t change, only people try to manipulate other people and that’s what happened. I saw the strangers in my neighborhood in the 1960s. They were wolves in sheep’s clothing. And they preached their false gospel. Have sex with your girlfriend, live with her without benefit of marriage and use illegal drugs. Don’t listen to mom, dad or the Church. These false ‘freedoms’ helped no one.
And they attacked the Church from the inside by removing altar and communion rails and statues. In Catholic schools and Universities, they made it a point to change things to harm good Catholic educations.
And they attacked the Church from the inside by removing altar and communion rails and statues. In Catholic schools and Universities, they made it a point to change things to harm good Catholic educations.
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ProVobis
Guest
I had it but disliked it immensely since the Latin propers were stripped off, probably to save space. Difficult to follow the readings that way, not to mention suspect translations.
Better Latin missals came later, after the 1962 liturgical books were restored.
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Pattylt
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I agree but was the Latin used in Mass intelligible to the Vulgar Latin speakers? As time progressed there would be a loss of understanding but at first, wasn’t it understood?
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ProVobis
Guest
To some extent I would suppose.
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Pattylt
Guest
Thank you. I assumed it was until the local languages drifted into the Romance languages. So, initially, the congregation understood what was being said. Now, they can again. I think this is a good thing.
I grew up in Orthodox Judaism and it was entirely in Hebrew except for the Homily. Now only specific prayers are still in Hebrew which are learned from childhood so everything is understandable. It makes for a much more meaningful atmosphere and understanding of the service.
I grew up in Orthodox Judaism and it was entirely in Hebrew except for the Homily. Now only specific prayers are still in Hebrew which are learned from childhood so everything is understandable. It makes for a much more meaningful atmosphere and understanding of the service.
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ProVobis
Guest
History has shown that many had been converted over the centuries.
Interesting is that even Protestants were distraught when the old Latin Mass was killed. Agatha Christie among others petitioned and got partial restoration.
And of all people Boris Johnson called it absurd that Latin was no longer taught in public schools.
Boris Johnson hits out at 'absurd decline of Latin in state schools’
The Mayor is pressing Tory high command to reverse the "absurd" decline of Latin in state schools.
www.standard.co.uk
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stpurl
Guest
Something I’m thinking of is the idea of a ‘sacred language’.
Judaism, for example, has Hebrew. . .but not every Jewish person speaks or understands Hebrew, am I correct? I believe that the boys (and now the girls) go to Hebrew school so that they can learn the appropriate responses for their bar or bat mitzvahs, but they don’t use it in 'regular speech".
Nobody really expects that every Jewish person be versed in Hebrew, and I don’t see people complaining that when they go to the synagogue to worship in a language that is not ‘vernacular’ to them that they ‘don’t understand’. . .
so why would people cavil at Latin for the Latin Rite Catholic Church?
Judaism, for example, has Hebrew. . .but not every Jewish person speaks or understands Hebrew, am I correct? I believe that the boys (and now the girls) go to Hebrew school so that they can learn the appropriate responses for their bar or bat mitzvahs, but they don’t use it in 'regular speech".
Nobody really expects that every Jewish person be versed in Hebrew, and I don’t see people complaining that when they go to the synagogue to worship in a language that is not ‘vernacular’ to them that they ‘don’t understand’. . .
so why would people cavil at Latin for the Latin Rite Catholic Church?
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OraLabora
Guest
Besides affordability and availability of missals, there was the issue of illiteracy which was very high in the lower classes of European society back then.
Dissidents have been around like forever, or at least, ever since the Church was founded. Just recite the Office of Readings. Many of the Patristic readings concern the Church fathers preaching against the heresy du jour. Such as St. Irenaeus’s teachings against the heresies.
It’s nothing new under the sun, the 60s notwithstanding. Same perversions have been around for ever too, as Saint Paul points out in his Epistle to the Romans.
The real source isn’t Vatican II. It’s the Fall.
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edwest211
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Not at all. Very specific events occurred to destroy the family, to promote contraception and then abortion. Then graphic sexual images being sold in so-called Adult Bookstores starting in the 1970s. A planned assault on Catholic institutions of higher education. Catholics need to know what happened. We were lied to. Our trust and good natures were taken advantage of. The history of the last 50 years needs to be known.
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stpurl
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But the Fall has had many manifestations throughout history, yes?
Joe Average Catholic went to Catholic school for 12 years in the 1970s and 1980s. Joe Average Catholic believes that the Eucharist is symbolic. Joe Average Catholic believes women should be able to be priests, that contraception can be ‘necessary’ and ‘not wrong’, that he can ‘take communion’ at the local United Church instead of going to the Catholic Church, that in fact there is no ‘obligation’ to attend Mass on a Sunday, and that fasting on Good Friday was ‘done away with at Vatican II’. Joe Average Catholic believes that the liturgy which he ‘understands’ tells him all the above and more; that ‘being a good person on the faith journey’ is what life is all about. Joe Average Catholic isn’t even all that solid on the Trinity, and thinks that Mary probably ‘had other kids’.
Now, one can say, "this bad understanding is all the fault of the Fall’. . .but let’s be serious.
In the United States, this bad understanding by many "average Catholics’ between the ages of birth and around 60 years old is due to the lack of teaching and formation they were given by Catholic priests and teachers, and which they ‘passed on’ to their children and grandchildren.
Now, we know that prior to Vatican II the average Catholic received an excellent education in the faith (yes, there were exceptions, but we’re still talking ‘average’ here, not ‘my mom’ or ‘my late granddad’ or 'what I was told at the nursing home). People sneered at the Baltimore Catechism in the so-enlightened 80s and 90s, along with ‘phonics’. . .until they realized that Buffy and Foster couldn’t read, write, do math, etc anywhere near as well as did the ‘unenlightened’ children of the past. Rote learning is now realized to be vital for children to build a ‘core’ in which they later, as they develop, can ‘branch out’ with other types of learning.
A couple of generations who missed that ‘core’ because they were making felt banners, protesting, and learning “Jesus loves me and that’s all I need” while singing treacly ditties in an often stripped down ‘worship space’ surrounded by glassy-eyed people who couldn’t answer ‘why’ any of ‘this stuff’ was even important are now at the mercy of every ‘new wind of change’.
And that, my friend, is due to the fact that one RESULT of the ambiguity and the hijacking in many cases of what it was said was Vatican II was the jettisoning of centuries’ worth of Catholic teaching and traditions to ‘reinvent the wheel’ with ‘easy to understand’ ‘new and improved’ JUNK teaching.
Joe Average Catholic went to Catholic school for 12 years in the 1970s and 1980s. Joe Average Catholic believes that the Eucharist is symbolic. Joe Average Catholic believes women should be able to be priests, that contraception can be ‘necessary’ and ‘not wrong’, that he can ‘take communion’ at the local United Church instead of going to the Catholic Church, that in fact there is no ‘obligation’ to attend Mass on a Sunday, and that fasting on Good Friday was ‘done away with at Vatican II’. Joe Average Catholic believes that the liturgy which he ‘understands’ tells him all the above and more; that ‘being a good person on the faith journey’ is what life is all about. Joe Average Catholic isn’t even all that solid on the Trinity, and thinks that Mary probably ‘had other kids’.
Now, one can say, "this bad understanding is all the fault of the Fall’. . .but let’s be serious.
In the United States, this bad understanding by many "average Catholics’ between the ages of birth and around 60 years old is due to the lack of teaching and formation they were given by Catholic priests and teachers, and which they ‘passed on’ to their children and grandchildren.
Now, we know that prior to Vatican II the average Catholic received an excellent education in the faith (yes, there were exceptions, but we’re still talking ‘average’ here, not ‘my mom’ or ‘my late granddad’ or 'what I was told at the nursing home). People sneered at the Baltimore Catechism in the so-enlightened 80s and 90s, along with ‘phonics’. . .until they realized that Buffy and Foster couldn’t read, write, do math, etc anywhere near as well as did the ‘unenlightened’ children of the past. Rote learning is now realized to be vital for children to build a ‘core’ in which they later, as they develop, can ‘branch out’ with other types of learning.
A couple of generations who missed that ‘core’ because they were making felt banners, protesting, and learning “Jesus loves me and that’s all I need” while singing treacly ditties in an often stripped down ‘worship space’ surrounded by glassy-eyed people who couldn’t answer ‘why’ any of ‘this stuff’ was even important are now at the mercy of every ‘new wind of change’.
And that, my friend, is due to the fact that one RESULT of the ambiguity and the hijacking in many cases of what it was said was Vatican II was the jettisoning of centuries’ worth of Catholic teaching and traditions to ‘reinvent the wheel’ with ‘easy to understand’ ‘new and improved’ JUNK teaching.
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Pattylt
Guest
According to that article, the Catholics did it to themselves. Where was the outside conspiracy? Who were these conspirators? It almost sounds like you are trying to blame anyone but the Church herself?
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edwest211
Guest
Men in seminaries in the 1970s were lied to also. Pope Paul VI stood firm on the Church’s constant teaching against artificial birth control in 1968. He was attacked. “Things went nuts in the seminaries in the 1970s.” I heard that on Catholic radio. Seminarians were taught Humanae Vitae but they were also told that the Church would change its teaching about artificial birth control. So, when they became priests later on, that lie was spread. When parishioners asked them about birth control, they were told it was “a personal conscience matter.”
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JimG
Guest
I didn’t know all of the Latin of the Mass, but I knew the Prayers at the foot of the Altar. I had to memorize those in 5th grade.
“Introibo ad altare Dei.”
“Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.”
I once taught that response to a CCD class in the 80’s just so they would know a Latin phrase.
After the Mass began to be said in English, I thought I had forgotten those prayers, but years later, it turned out I remembered not only the altar server’s responses but also the priest’s part. Even now I might be found muttering under my breath “Judica mea Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta…”
I also could recite or sing the Creed and Gloria and Pater Noster in Latin with no trouble, as well as a number of Latin hymns. But the children’s choir at my parish even now can sing Latin hymns.
I like the Mass in English, although I’m not sure it makes me pay any closer attention. When we got the Mass in English, a neighbor once said to me, “It doesn’t matter much; I can daydream through English as much as I can through Latin.”
It might be interesting to query people right after Mass as to which Eucharistic Prayer was used. They might not have been paying attention.
“Introibo ad altare Dei.”
“Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.”
I once taught that response to a CCD class in the 80’s just so they would know a Latin phrase.
After the Mass began to be said in English, I thought I had forgotten those prayers, but years later, it turned out I remembered not only the altar server’s responses but also the priest’s part. Even now I might be found muttering under my breath “Judica mea Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta…”
I also could recite or sing the Creed and Gloria and Pater Noster in Latin with no trouble, as well as a number of Latin hymns. But the children’s choir at my parish even now can sing Latin hymns.
I like the Mass in English, although I’m not sure it makes me pay any closer attention. When we got the Mass in English, a neighbor once said to me, “It doesn’t matter much; I can daydream through English as much as I can through Latin.”
It might be interesting to query people right after Mass as to which Eucharistic Prayer was used. They might not have been paying attention.
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thistle
Guest
So I don’t misunderstand we are talking about the Roman Church only here?
The other 23 churches that make up the Catholic Church have never used Latin for Mass.
The other 23 churches that make up the Catholic Church have never used Latin for Mass.
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Fauken
Guest
That is correct.
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HumbleIOughtToBe
Guest
Imagine trying to get a 12 year old on a screen to pay attention to Latin in 2020.
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