Latin in pre Vat 2 Mass?

[twf]

It just means that the supreme authority of the Church cannot impose a universal discipline that is contrary to divine law. For example, the Church cannot universally impose an invalid form of the Mass. Latin is not contrary to divine law, nor is the vernacular.

 

[ProVobis]

So a doctrinal council like Trent, which denounced the vernacular-everywhere, didn’t express divine law? Just asking as I’ve taken doctrine to be a part of divine law.

 

[ProVobis]

To be clear, the official readings in the EF are in Latin and facing east for the Epistle and north for the Gospel. The rereading into vernacular is optional and is done for pastoral reasons.

 

[twf]

I’m pretty sure the doctrinal aspect there was simply that the Mass does not HAVE to be in the vernacular. It was a response to Protestantism. Or put another way, it is lawful to worship God in a sacred language such as Latin.

 

[babochka]

So a doctrinal council like Trent, which denounced the vernacular-everywhere, didn’t express divine law? Just asking as I’ve taken doctrine to be a part of divine law.

My reading of Trent is that it denounced the idea that everything must be in the vernacular, but did not denounce having the Mass in the vernacular. Remembering that Trent was a Counter Reformation Council and some of the leaders of the Reformation were adamant that Latin must be abolished in favor of the vernacular.

 

[ProVobis]

Remembering that Trent was a Counter Reformation Council and some of the leaders of the Reformation were adamant that Latin must be abolished in favor of the vernacular.

So is it fair to say “must be in vernacular” is heresy?

 

[babochka]

babochka:

Remembering that Trent was a Counter Reformation Council and some of the leaders of the Reformation were adamant that Latin must be abolished in favor of the vernacular.

So is it fair to say “must be in vernacular” is heresy?

Yes, I would definitely put it that way.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Pope Pius VI in the late 1700s issued a decree against using vernacular in the Mass. I don’t remember the title, though.

 

[twf]

It would be disciplinary.

 

[ProVobis]

More recently Pope John XXIII’s Veterum Sapientia

Veterum Sapientia - Papal Encyclicals

 

[stpurl]

Really? You mean the EF and the OF and all the Eastern rites? Sounds good to me.

 

[giuseppeTO]

My wife and I were in Japan a couple of years ago in Osaka - a big industrial city with many shinto temples but not many Catholic venues. It happened that there was a monthly Mass offered by the SSPX in a building across from our hotel, one per month, coincidentally on the Sunday we were there. Of the 50 or so faithful gathered, only one Australian lady spoke English and the priest (Fr. Onodo) spoke some English. To our surprise, the congregation decided, for our benefit, to recite the rosary before Mass in Latin, which my wife and I were able to do. Although we didn’t speak the same language, we were able to pray the rosary together. Of course, once the Mass began, it was the Traditional Latin Mass that we assist at regularly and we had no problem following the Mass in our Missals. The priest was then kind enough the give the sermon twice, once in Japanese and once in English.

 

[phil19034]

Today, yes.

Originally, no.

As I mentioned, the liturgy of the diocese of Rome was in greek until the changes over the third and fourth centuries. Additionally, latin was not universal in the West before Trent, more was the liturgy even close to uniform. Some areas had their own, some used the eastern liturgies, some were in the vernacular . . .

Also, I’ve always assumed (but have no real basis) that with the Sarum rite evolving while there was minimal contact between the islands and the mainland, that it was likely on the local tongue. But I really don’t know . . .

hawk

My understanding is that that the Rites of the west that were part of the Latin Rites family (Roman, Ambrosian, African, Braga, etc.) were all in Latin.

The African Rite (African Liturgy) was actually the very first Rite in Latin.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01194a.htm

The Sarum Rite was in Latin. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm

Even the Celtic Rite was in Latin (though it looks like they had some Irish hymns).

 

[poche]

In the past there were times when the epistle and the gospel were read in more than one language where there were a sufficient number of people that would benefit.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

In the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Gospel is read in various languages to show that the Resurrection must be preached to the whole world. The Gospel is John 1: 1-17 (and no genuflection at v. 14 since there’s no kneeling from Pascha to Pentecost inclusive ).

 

[edwest211]

So is it Ukrainian or Greek?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

It’s Ukrainian, but the official title is the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. This is Christ Our Pascha, the official catechism of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (click on the image):

http://catechism.royaldoors.net/

 

[edwest211]

OK. News to me. I knew Ukrainians growing up.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

That’s the entire catechism, so you can look up anything. Really neat.

 

[phil19034]

True, true. But at least we are dealing with only one language.

Curious: what’s you view on the bilingual masses? And I’m not just talking about where one reading is in Spanish, while others are in English. I mean that plus the other parts of the mass and hymns are in both.

My mom is Puerto Rican and I can honestly say the bilingual Masses drive me crazy.

To me, if the parish feels the need for a bilingual mass, that’s a perfect time to use Latin. Sure, they can still do the readings in English & other language, but should use the Latin canon and Latin Hymns.

Paul VI said that Latin should still be used and that all Catholics should know select prayers in Latin. Using Latin instead of the bilingual masses just seems like a great opportunity to use Latin in a parish that normally doesn’t.

Thoughts?

God Bless