Latin language and (very) ordinary parishioners

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Hi, guys. Someone from the not-so-distant Philippine Islands.

(If you’re Filipino, make a wave to your compatriot here.)

Anyway, I have some familiarity with the pro-Latin (i.e. everything be in Latin) movement in the Church. To give some context, Latin should be indeed be given privilege in the Latin church, and her rites consequently. Well, why are we called the Roman/Latin church/rite if it should not be the case? Let me quote Sacrosanctum Concilium: “Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.” (§36.1)

I absolutely get it. Latin should take the precedence. I don’t deny that a mass in Latin, even in Novus Ordo, has an unspeakable beauty when heard. By that time I can appreciate the Latin Mass, I already have better intellectual formation on our august religion.

There is nothing wrong with promoting Latin, and Sacrosanctum Concilium is frank about Latin actually, but I find hard to understand the move to Latinize everything. I understand: it can be fine if those who listen have sufficient education, profane and sacred (or at least profane), but I cannot wrap my head around it if it happens in a low information and relatively low education environment, which pretty.much describes the intellectual situation of the Philippines. Despite the popular opinion, not everyone can understand English in a sufficient level, much less speak it. What more for Latin?

The move to make everything Latin, as the status quo ante concilio, may appear sound in an Euro-American environment, with its high levels of education (most of those I found professing being part of the movement come from this ethno-cultural bloc, I suppose), but this simply flies in the face of a people in this part of the world that suffers in low information in things worldly yet important things, like elections.

How can this pastoral context be squared with the move for more Latin in the Chruch’s prayer life? What do you think?
 
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FROI said:
The move to make everything Latin, as the status quo ante concilio, may appear sound in an Euro-American environment
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I’m American from USA, I have a working knowledge of Latin from school, and I like an occasional Latin Mass and Latin prayers.
I am unaware of a “move to make everything Latin”, I doubt this would ever happen anyway, and I would think you can safely just ignore it and continue to attend Mass and pray in your own language.

The vast, vast majority of Masses and prayers in USA are in English. I do not expect this to change.
 
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Well, it isn’t as if you have to do it all at once. You can take your time and learn it bit by bit. Here, for instance, is a beginning Latin lesson from youtube:


You can also simply memorize prayers in Latin without knowing exactly how to break down the Latin: Prayers in Latin

If you memorize a prayer in Latin without knowing Latin, and then start learning a bit of Latin, you will probably get so you can break the prayer down into English before too much time has passed.

English is harder than Latin, so if you can do English, you can do Latin. Much, though not all, of English vocabulary has a basis in Latin.

Aside from all of that, I doubt anybody will force Latin upon everybody any time soon, so I doubt there is really anything to worry about.

It’s good to know a little bit of Latin even if you never really need to use it. 🙂
 
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  1. Is this happening in the Phillipines? Are lots of things being done (only) in Latin?
  2. Is this new?
 
  1. No, although there are traditionalist groups, both schismatic and loyal, operating in the PH.
  2. What do you mean by new? That it is a new phenomenon? If that’s it, pretty much in the negative.
 
This same V2 document I quoted regards the text of the Mass as also having a didactic character, and in fact, states immediately after §36.1 that “ince the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended.” (§36.2).

However, the same document states anyway that it is up to pertinent authorities in the local churches “to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used,” but the Pope still has the final say.
 
So if the Philippines does NOT have a lot of Masses and other prayers being done only in Latin, and this isn’t some new trend starting to do everything in Latin, then why are you concerned about it?

Trust me, most ordinary Catholics in Europe and USA don’t want to “make everything Latin” either. Traditionalists and those with an interest in Latin or church history generally enjoy using Latin. Ordinary people don’t. Unless maybe your native language is very close to Latin, such as Italians.
 
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I’m Ukrainian Greek Catholic. When I was little, the entire Liturgy was in Slavonic (think of it as the Eastern European version of Latin). As I grew up, we started doing the Liturgy in part Slavonic and part English. In 1988, our UGCC Synod decreed that the Liturgy should be in Ukrainian and English.

Occasionally I attend the TLM (EF) which is all in Latin except the readings and the homily. I understand the value of Latin & Slavonic but also appreciate the vernacular too.

What I’ve seen in the RCC is that people want certain parts of the RC Mass (e.g. the Sanctus) in Latin while having the rest in English. That sounds like the aurea media to me.
 
At this point already, I thank all those who take time to discuss with me.

This is basically my conundrum: how can we square the reintroduction of much Latin in the liturgy in pastoral cases like the PH? Well, true, such a move won’t surely happen anytime soon, and masses in Latin are rare (as far as I know) in PH; however, from someone taking interest on the language (as much as possible, I actually pray the Angelus in Latin) and worried about the current state of the Church here and overseas, people like Fr. Zuhlsdorf (pardon me for name-dropping) make claims like this, and I quote: “I’ll say it again and again and again… the Devil HATES LATIN. Let’s stop fooling around. Put the .22 long rifle away and start with the .50 cal already. The time for the MaDeuce of our sacred liturgical worship is NOW. Extraordinary Form, brothers. Stop fooling around. If you Latins out there don’t know and can’t use your whole Latin Rite, then… who the hell are you, anyway?” His words, for me, pretty much sums the reasoning of those who wants more Latin in the liturgy (and in fact, I’m ready to cling stronger to Latin if it indeed will weaken the influence of Satan in the members of the Church, if not for the reasons I already explained). This is not wrong though, but the conundrum, again, is squaring this idea with our context here. To make things more concrete, it interests me to imagine bringing these people in Catholic-majority countries like ours and presenting such arguments in, say, a conference.

Again, this is not about having many Latin masses, which, until recently, is not what is happening, but rather the pastoral ramifications. If you ask me, claims about the effects of re-Latinization, as articulated by Fr. Zuhlsdorf, will not make sense if it isn’t done in the macro level. Unless someone corrects me, such a move betrays pastoral insenstivity or even a sort of nearsightedness. I initiated this discussion to address these, so that our dear co-religionists can also think of us in the Third World when they make such arguments. Accuse me not of Gallicanism, but this is basically presenting a context not much heard in online Catholic discussions.

To end, aren’t we Catholics from nations like the PH, Korea, Brazil, and the Congo Latin enough?
 
Fr. Z, Fr. Ripperger, and virtually every other “internet celebrity priest” have good things to say sometimes, but in the end their opinions are just their opinions and often need to be taken with a grain of blessed salt.

I also doubt Fr. Z is writing for a Filipino or Latinx audience. He’s writing for the fringe group of Americans in USA who already agree with pretty much everything he says. He doesn’t stop to think how somebody in another country will respond to his column.
 
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FROI said:
How can this pastoral context be squared with the move for more Latin in the Chruch’s prayer life? What do you think?
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I have never heard of a move to make everything Latin. Can you direct us to where you got this from?
 
Having some Latin in some Masses is not that difficult; at a couple of the churches I go to, several of the “common” parts (prayers said every week) of the Mass are said in Latin, and the Kyrie in Greek.

I used to attend a Byzantine church which used a lot of Old Church Slavonic (very sad they have stopped 😦 ) and they had longer prayers so they alternated.

The missals were both languages side-by-side, and since it happened every week, even I, with little previous knowledge of any Slavic language, was able to start learning the OCS prayers.

And since everyone knew the prayers in English, switching languages did not disturb their understanding.

Don’t think that because the all-Latin Mass proponents have a big presence online that it is a massive movement 🙂
 
I think I misused the word “move” for it implies an official decision from above. What I should have used instead is a “movement”, which can allow for a meaning of an organization, or at least individuals cohered somewhat orderly though not formally, which is not necessarily big and influential.

I thank @Annie for the word “movement”.
 
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How do I met this “all-Latin movement”? Thru the Net. I’ve never met one personally. In the virtual world, I never found anyone or anything that is not from the West.
 
thistle said:
utservices01:
The Latin language is an ancient language, the language of the Bible, considered dead by some.
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The Old Testament was written in Hebrew.
The New Testament was written in Greek.
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Well, quite.

Utservices01, what made you think that Latin is the language of the Bible?
 
There is no need to learn Latin. Unless you want to learn Latin.
 
It’s just another way to pray, the way which is in conformity with the old Latin mass. Like I said before, nobody is going to force people to say mass in Latin, at least not any time soon, if ever . . .
 
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