Latin Makes a Comeback

[Catholic_Press]

From language immersion classes to interest in the origins of the new Mass translation, a ‘dead language’ reveals new strength.

More…

 

[OriginalJS]

Interesting. Wonder why there isn’t similar interest in Hebrew and Greek since those are the original languages of the Bible? I am convinced from my own experience that even a superficial study of Latin, Greek, and French is extremely valuable to anyone in the English speaking world. For Catholics especially a rudimentary basis is all that is necessary to appreciate the Mass and Prayers in Latin. Latin, like every other language, has a beauty of its own that is often lost in stilted and awkward translation.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Laudetur Iesus Christus!

 

[ProVobis]

Interesting. Wonder why there isn’t similar interest in Hebrew and Greek since those are the original languages of the Bible?

You will find some universities which offer a Classics program or Mediterranean linguistics which study the history of such languages. Latin is the language of the early church and has been supported by 250 some Popes, some who pushed it more strongly than others, of course, especially the last two Popes.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

“It’s essential for the strength of Catholic identity to get our Latin heritage back,” said Llewellyn.

And I see it as the ego identity that driving the motive here, and is dangerous spiritually.

The so-called Catholic identity makes one feel separate from the “others,” who are seen as lost.

When the ego-identity is linked into religion, a person become defensive against any one who questions the religion. They’re not defending the religion, but their ego which is linked to it.

Instead of drawing us into a closer relationship with Christ, it separates us from other’s who need our love and compassion in order for them to come to Christ as well.

Jim

 

[YoungTradCath]

And I see it as the ego identity that driving the motive here, and is dangerous spiritually.

The so-called Catholic identity makes one feel separate from the “others,” who are seen as lost.

When the ego-identity is linked into religion, a person become defensive against any one who questions the religion. They’re not defending the religion, but their ego which is linked to it.

Instead of drawing us into a closer relationship with Christ, it separates us from other’s who need our love and compassion in order for them to come to Christ as well.

Jim

Other Christians are lost.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Sallus.

 

[Ocarm]

Before people start expending energy on knowing Latin - itself a worthy enough pursuit - it helps if they know and understand the teachings of the Church in any language.

Other Christians are lost.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Sallus.

CONSTITUTIO DOGMATICA DE ECCLESIA

LUMEN GENTIUM

15. Cum illis qui, baptizati, christiano nomine decorantur, integram autem fidem non profitentur vel unitatem communionis sub Successore Petri non servant, Ecclesia semetipsam novit plures ob rationes coniunctam(28). Sunt enim multi, qui sacram Scripturam ut normam credendi et vivendi in honore habent sincerumque zelum religiosum ostendunt, amanter credunt in Deum Patrem omnipotentem et in Christum, Filium Dei Salvatorem(29), baptismo signantur, quo Christo coniunguntur, imo et alia sacramenta in propriis Ecclesiis vel communitatibus ecclesiasticis agnoscunt et recipiunt. Plures inter illos et episcopatu gaudent, Sacram Eucharistiam celebrant necnon pietatem erga Deiparam Virginem fovent(30). Accedit orationum aliorumque beneficiorum spiritualium communio; imo vera quaedam in Spiritu Sancto coniunctio, quippe qui donis et gratiis etiam in illis sua virtute sanctificante operatur, et quosdam illorum usque ad sanguinis effusionem roboravit.

Videte: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_lt.html

(And for those in whose lives Latin has not yet made a comeback):

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.*

See: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Those with whom the Church is ‘linked in many ways’ and who are ‘joined with us in the Holy Spirit’ are not outside the Church, and are no more lost - or guaranteed of salvation, since God leaves this to us in the exercise of our free will - than those who rejoice in the name of Catholic.

Note the descriptor DOGMATICA. A dogmatic teaching is one which has been divinely revealed and confirmed as such by exercise of the extraordinary magisterium. This is definitive teaching requiring the assent of faith:

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

See: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM

Q.E.D.

That’s Latin for ‘so there’, by the way.

 

[rlg94086]

And I see it as the ego identity that driving the motive here, and is dangerous spiritually.

The so-called Catholic identity makes one feel separate from the “others,” who are seen as lost.

When the ego-identity is linked into religion, a person become defensive against any one who questions the religion. They’re not defending the religion, but their ego which is linked to it.

Instead of drawing us into a closer relationship with Christ, it separates us from other’s who need our love and compassion in order for them to come to Christ as well.

Jim

How is it “ego-identity” to show an interest in the universal, ecclesial language of the Church? How does that interest cause separation, defensiveness, etc? I’m not following your logic.

You aren’t feeling separated and defensive about other parishioners’ interest in Latin, are you?

 

[rlg94086]

I didn’t have much of an interest in Latin until Sacramentum Caritatis:

1. None of the above observations should cast doubt upon the importance of such large-scale liturgies. I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, (182) that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers (183) of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant.

Our priest responded by changing the liturgy of one of our Masses to having the common prayers in Latin and Gregorian chant. I think following the Pope’s lead is a good thing, isn’t it?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How is it “ego-identity” to show an interest in the universal, ecclesial language of the Church? How does that interest cause separation, defensiveness, etc? I’m not following your logic.

You aren’t feeling separated and defensive about other parishioners’ interest in Latin, are you?

The part of the article I responded to,

“It’s essential for the strength of Catholic identity to get our Latin heritage back,” said Llewellyn.

Why is Catholic identity an importance to us?

If we worship God and obey his commandments as Jesus taught, our actions will identify us without our ego being attached to the knowledge of it. People will be drawn to the Church because of Jesus Christ, not because of Catholic culture which makes them feel unique in the eyes of “others.”

Jim

 

[rlg94086]

The part of the article I responded to,

Why is Catholic identity an importance to us?

If we worship God and obey his commandments as Jesus taught, our actions will identify us without our ego being attached to the knowledge of it. People will be drawn to the Church because of Jesus Christ, not because of Catholic culture which makes them feel unique in the eyes of “others.”

Jim

I appreciate your perspective, but I’m okay with Catholic culture being something to bring people home to His Church. I don’t think it has to do with “ego-identity.” That was an odd way to put it IMO.

Do you have a problem with Catholic liturgy being different than other churches? Proper liturgy puts the proper focus on the meaning of the Mass…the Eucharist. That is quite different than many Churches. The Latin part is just the traditional base of the Church and the universal, ecclesial language. I think putting the “universal” back into the catholic meaning of Catholic is a good thing.

 

[saveusfromhell]

it’s don’t understand why people don’t want others to learn latin. i go to mass in english but i love hearing prayers song in latin.

 

[OriginalJS]

it’s don’t understand why people don’t want others to learn latin. i go to mass in english but i love hearing prayers song in latin.

Every language has its own beauty. To me, the verses of Silent Night are much more beautiful in German, in which it was originally written, than English; O Come all Ye Faithful is more beautiful in Latin Adeste Fidelis than English. Greek has beauty that we hear in the Kyrie Eleison (the last Greek in the Mass, I think,) The Hail Mary in English sounds somewhat stilted compared to the flowing Latin.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

Before people start expending energy on knowing Latin - itself a worthy enough pursuit - it helps if they know and understand the teachings of the Church in any language.

CONSTITUTIO DOGMATICA DE ECCLESIA

LUMEN GENTIUM

15. Cum illis qui, baptizati, christiano nomine decorantur, integram autem fidem non profitentur vel unitatem communionis sub Successore Petri non servant, Ecclesia semetipsam novit plures ob rationes coniunctam(28). Sunt enim multi, qui sacram Scripturam ut normam credendi et vivendi in honore habent sincerumque zelum religiosum ostendunt, amanter credunt in Deum Patrem omnipotentem et in Christum, Filium Dei Salvatorem(29), baptismo signantur, quo Christo coniunguntur, imo et alia sacramenta in propriis Ecclesiis vel communitatibus ecclesiasticis agnoscunt et recipiunt. Plures inter illos et episcopatu gaudent, Sacram Eucharistiam celebrant necnon pietatem erga Deiparam Virginem fovent(30). Accedit orationum aliorumque beneficiorum spiritualium communio; imo vera quaedam in Spiritu Sancto coniunctio, quippe qui donis et gratiis etiam in illis sua virtute sanctificante operatur, et quosdam illorum usque ad sanguinis effusionem roboravit.

Videte: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_lt.html

(And for those in whose lives Latin has not yet made a comeback):

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.*

See: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Those with whom the Church is ‘linked in many ways’ and who are ‘joined with us in the Holy Spirit’ are not outside the Church, and are no more lost - or guaranteed of salvation, since God leaves this to us in the exercise of our free will - than those who rejoice in the name of Catholic.

Note the descriptor DOGMATICA. A dogmatic teaching is one which has been divinely revealed and confirmed as such by exercise of the extraordinary magisterium. This is definitive teaching requiring the assent of faith:

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

See: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2A.HTM

Q.E.D.

That’s Latin for ‘so there’, by the way.

and for those who are not in the Church and continually refuse its grace? Only the Catholic Church holds the full truth, we may have hope for our protestant brethren, but we must bid them towards the True Church. Protestants who live good lives have a “possibility” of salvation, in other words they are playing dice with their souls until they join in full communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[A_G]

I wish to attend Latin Mass some day…

 

[mary_bobo]

I wish to attend Latin Mass some day…

I hope you get the opportunity to do so. I think you will find it more reverent and more solemn than the OF. Also, with regard to Latin, anyone who has taken Latin has a heads up on the meaning of english words.

 

[rlg94086]

I hope you get the opportunity to do so. I think you will find it more reverent and more solemn than the OF. Also, with regard to Latin, anyone who has taken Latin has a heads up on the meaning of english words.

Yes and no, Mary. The OF I attend is as reverent and solemn than the EF Masses I’ve been too, but then we use Gregorian chant, Latin common prayers, etc. The only things I would like to see changed are to have the priest face ad orientum during the consecration and return of the altar rail. Locally, we also have a non-Latin, reverently prayed OF at a Dominican priory…with altar rail. It’s where I go for Confession, since it is offered daily. I attended a similar parish in the SF Bay Area.

I actually prefer the OF when done reverently/solemnly over the EF. If I had to move though…I would probably seek a parish with the EF, since our form of the OF is extremely difficult to find.