Latin Mass comeback

[OraLabora]

The entire OF Mass can be said in Latin, and I’ve been to several here and in Europe.

 

[stpurl]

The Vatican didn’t. Bishops took it on their own initiative.

The Vatican does not micromanage bishops.

However when Pope St. John Paul II became aware of the situation he took steps to ensure that the TLM was available in so far as he himself was told it was ‘appropriate’.

And when Pope Benedict XVI became Pope and saw that those efforts were still inadequate (not because Pope St. John Paul II did not care or did not do ‘enough’, but again because of bishops choosing to ‘interpret’ the Pope’s directives as they chose) he issued the Motu Proprio.

The Vatican has always been a friend to Tradition with the big T (and indeed with the small T as well) as well as being open to the need to interact (though not to assimilate with or succumb to) with any given ‘current’ society.

 

[commenter]

I can’t seem to understand how it is that the Vatican at that time thought that removing, even going as far as prohibiting, Priests from saying the traditional Latin Mass that had been used for 500 years was a good idea and a way to be more “inclusive”.

You have a point, in terms of the past.
But what actions to take in the present? Sadly, some TLM lovers I know dwell constantly on the 1960s.

They love to tell any one who will listen about how the document on the Liturgy was secretly written by Bugnini in a restaurant with two co conspirators. They love to tell of chancery officials who in the 60s, 70s and 80s ridiculed, forbid, insulted, denounced, and plain yelled at Latin Mass supporters.

They pass on this trail of tears to their children, lest they forget. They love, LOVE, to pass on in lurid detail liturgical abuses of the 1970s. They aren’t much into the current year.

I keep checking their online newsletter, maybe they’ll tell something of Thomas Aquinas and the Mass. Instead they fixate on Peter Kwasniewski, joyfully trashing the illegitimate child, the Novus Ordo.

This is why I stopped attended the Latin Mass regularly.

 

[phil19034]

I don’t think the 1962 missal will ever become the the “ordinary form” of the Mass again.

HOWEVER, there are MANY liturgists (priests) who think we might one day go back to a mass similar to the 1965 missal, with the prayers at the foot of the altar restored, a mix of Latin & Vernacular, etc.

In other words, some prayers would be mandated to be in Latin, while readings would be in the Vernacular and some prayers might be allowed to be in the vernacular. But certain prayers would be mandated in Latin.

But most importantly, a number of the prayers that were totally removed would be restored.

At least that is the guess that some liturgists expect will eventually happen one day in the future (most likely after priests who were in the seminary during Vatican II have pasted from this world).

 

[Randolph]

I don’t think the 1962 missal will ever become the the “ordinary form” of the Mass again.

HOWEVER, there are MANY liturgists (priests) who think we might one day go back to a mass similar to the 1965 missal, with the prayers at the foot of the altar restored, a mix of Latin & Vernacular, etc.

In other words, some prayers would be mandated to be in Latin, while readings would be in the Vernacular and some prayers might be allowed to be in the vernacular. But certain prayers would be mandated in Latin.

But most importantly, a number of the prayers that were totally removed would be restored.

At least that is the guess that some liturgists expect will eventually happen one day in the future (most likely after priests who were in the seminary during Vatican II have pasted from this world).

I agree. Throughout the life of the Church, all Rites/Masses have gone through their own organic development. It has been no difference with the Tridentine Mass. The Tridentine Mass issued by St. Pius V—after the Council of Trent—in 1570 was developed and subsequently arrived at the form currently appears in the 1965 Missal. So it is expected that both the EF and the OF will in time go through their own organic developments—as the Church deems fit. In the meantime, speculations as to how things would unfold in the future are reasonable. I personally witnessed in the past several years that, in the OF in certain churches, the Kyrie was sung in Greek, and the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei were sung in Latin. They were beautiful and beautifully done. Some liturgists have said this might very well be how it will be developed in the OF—connecting ourselves in the presence firmly and intimately with the richness and the beauty of the Church in the past.

In Summorum Pontificum, Pope Benedict insisted that the EF and OF are two forms of the same Rite. That is to say they both are approved and valid Masses. Therefore, they both deserve our love and our respect. It seems to me that either Masses are fine if we keep on obeying the rubrics and keep our own temptations from injecting ourselves into the Mass at the expense of diminishing the importance of main object of the Mass—which is the worship of God.

 

[phil19034]

So it is expected that both the EF and the OF will in time go through their own organic developments—as the Church deems fit.

NOTE: I don’t know if the EF will go through any organic developments.

There are some that feel that the EF will be stuck in 1962 forever. The only way it can go through development is if the EF becomes viewed as a separate “Use” of the Roman Rite rather than a “Form” of the Roman Rite.

In other words, as long as the EF is viewed as a “Form” it will not be able to develop. But if it becomes viewed as a “Use” (like the Anglican Use) then it can.

Therefore, what will most likely happen (unless the EF becomes considered an “Use”) is that the OF would adopt some of the good things from the EF while maintaining some of the good things from the OF.

In other words, the OF would keep it’s strengths while adopting the strengths of the 1970 Mass.

NOTE 2: But this might not happen for another 50 - 100 years. The Church moves slowly, so this might not happen in our lifetimes (if ever).

 

[OraLabora]

There were plenty of abuses in the pre-Vatican II era.

 

[Randolph]

NOTE: I don’t know if the EF will go through any organic developments.

I am not a liturgist. I believe some years back Pope Benedict made a modification to a prayer in the EF regarding our Jewish brothers in Good Friday service. I could be wrong. And I wonder what Pope Benedict did would consider a development or something else.

 

[Randolph]

NOTE 2: But this might not happen for another 50 - 100 years. The Church moves slowly, so this might not happen in our lifetimes (if ever).

Lol. Very true indeed…

 

[Randolph]

There are some that feel that the EF will be stuck in 1962 forever. The only way it can go through development is if the EF becomes viewed as a separate “Use” of the Roman Rite rather than a “Form” of the Roman Rite.

In other words, as long as the EF is viewed as a “Form” it will not be able to develop. But if it becomes viewed as a “Use” (like the Anglican Use) then it can.

Therefore, what will most likely happen (unless the EF becomes considered an “Use”) is that the OF would adopt some of the good things from the EF while maintaining some of the good things from the OF.

In other words, the OF would keep it’s strengths while adopting the strengths of the 1970 Mass.

Now you get me curious. I wonder if there are people here who could answer it

 

[Mark121359]

Sadly, some TLM lovers I know dwell constantly on the 1960s…

I keep checking their online newsletter, maybe they’ll tell something of Thomas Aquinas and the Mass. Instead they fixate on Peter Kwasniewski, joyfully trashing the illegitimate child, the Novus Ordo.

This is why I stopped attended the Latin Mass regularly.

You see, this is what confuses me. Now why in the world would you stop attending the Latin Mass for what some TLM lovers have done? You would abandon “The Most Beautiful Thing This Side of Heaven” because of the actions of a few???

 

[commenter]

I still visit the EF now and then. I was planning to attend their mission, which got cancelled because of you know what. But my neighborhood parish has orthodox liturgies and preaching so I usually go there. Except for now of course.

As you imply, I should stop reading their newsletter.

 

[Randolph]

I’m not sure that the Catholic Church can ever be as “safe” as the young people born in 1995 and later want. So I think we’ll continue to see more and more people give up any type of “religion” and count on their own “spirituality” to get them through life. So sad.

The numbers and evidences you mentioned were quite revealing—sad as you put it for sure. The Church had gone through very difficult times in her history: the great heresies, sack of Rome in 1527, the Protestant reformation, the great schism in 1054, WWII, etc…

But the Church always triumphed in the end. And She will triumph again…

 

[Randolph]

As you imply, I should stop reading their newsletter.

I attend both the EF and OF—but preferably the Low Mass EF if I have a choice. Among the EF Mass goers, generally they are good and faithful Catholics. There are many who are among the finest people I know. Several are also among my closest and faithful friends. But admittedly, there are some who are quite inflexible in their negative thinking toward the OF. This is quite sad. In this case, I usually, when the right time and the appropriate place allowed me to, mentioned to them that the Church approves both the OF and the EF, and therefore respect and proper reverence are due to them.

In the same breath, there were occasions once people who attended the OF found out that I attended the EF. The negative comments were just as brutal: hard core conservatives, bigots, living in the past, priests turning their back on people, rigid, not with the times, outdated thinking, etc…

We need to be faithful to, and to obey the Church.

 

[stpurl]

No, I really don’t think there were.

 

[OraLabora]

Indeed there were. The very orthodox 81 y.o. Benedictine monk I work with in the abbey library told me the story of when he was a seminarian in the 1950s. He was an altar server and would sing the responses. He said that the priest would already be at the consecration before he had finished singing the Sanctus.

Speeding through the Mass at warp speed was certainly not rare. Many CAF members were there and can attest to it, that the Mass was said in an irreverent manner on way more than one occasion.

There is also no guarantee that if the TLM became the only Mass today, that there wouldn’t be abuses. The only reason there aren’t many is because most of the time the TLM is in the care of aficionados of that form of the Mass.

 

[stpurl]

So your charge of ‘many abuses’ is resting on the story of a seminarian serving one priest who was ‘speeding through Mass.

Uh-huh.

That’s it?
No clown masses.
No ad lib Masses especially the consecration.
No priests on hoverboards.
No dancing down the aisles.
No puppets
No priests serving Mass wearing letter sweaters and distributing communion with the high school team mascot.
No people standing around the altar and speaking the words of consecration with the priests.
No priests telling you that no good Catholic could vote for Trump (or Carter, or Reagan, or Bush, or Kerry, etc.)
No laity giving homilies (happened for 35 years and more in the diocese of Rochester NY).
No giving self-intinction.
No priests fracturing the Host at the consecration.
No priests refusing to offer reconciliation because “that’s no longer necessary, we are an Easter people”.
No rushing through Mass because, “Hell isn’t the only place that’s hot today ha ha ha”
No rushing through Mass because, “You kids need time to relax”.
No deciding that “in this parish we will not say this new liturgy from 2011 because it isn’t meaningful.”
No deciding to always say ‘cup’ because “chalice is too la de dah’.
No priests using cut glass chalices because “It won’t break, I’ve had it 30 years and it’s been fine’.
No laity refusing to use the word He’ and loudly substituting GOD every time it is called for in the Mass.
And you know I could go on.
ALL the above happened in Masses I attended, sometimes happening for YEARS.

Yet ‘the EF had NUMEROUS abuses?

Sorry. I don’t believe if even 5% of priests in 1955 rushed Mass for 50 years prior that it would come even close to the number and range of abuses in the OF in the past 50 years. Even the most well-intentioned priest, given the nature of the OF and its many options, along with the entire climate of society from the 1960s on, was far more liable to make or condone abuses in the OF.

And edited to add: Yes, I know things have gotten better in many places. I’m not arguing that.

But I am saying it is pretty strange to go around and accuse the EF of having had ‘numerous abuses’ resting on the comment you made as if it equate to anywhere NEAR the number of abuses the OF has been through in only 50 years, and is still prone to. I’m not criticizing the OF or impugning its validity but attempting a “You can’t criticize the OF because the EF had ‘numerous abuses’ with the abuse claims you give is just. . .well, flabbergasting.

 

[OraLabora]

Sorry but your entire list is a collection of anecdotes. In my 61 years of Mass attendance, of which perhaps 56 I remember, and of which 50 would be in the OF, I have not seen a single occurrence of the abuses you noted. I’ve seen plenty of poor music either by selection of pieces or indifferent performance, but I suspect there was plenty of mangled Gregorian chant at the old Mass too, especially in smaller parishes.

As for fast irreverent pre-Council Masses, maybe you can argue that those too are anecdotal, but many CAF members who were there remember them.

In any event if the EF became ordinary everywhere again, what makes you think the supposedly disobedient priest would suddenly become obedient again? It’s a disciplinary matter totally unrelated to the form of the Mass.

 

[Emeraldlady]

My daughter came from Latin Mass a little while back with a funny story. Somewhere in the middle of Mass someones phone started to ring and literally the entire congregation whipped heads around and shot daggers through the heart of the owner who was scrambling terrified to switch it off. She has been to Mass at the Carmelite monastery where such things have happened and the nuns don’t bat an eyelid. Oh well.

 

[27lw]

It’s simply the vagueness of the rubrics after Vatican II. At EF Mass the priests could only misbehave in a limited way, while adhering to the rubrics. After Vatican II, so much more freedom to color “outside the lines”. If a priest wanted to “color outside the lines”, that is.