Latin Mass Invalid???

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But the Priest are in Schism and I don’t believe they are allowed to consecrate the Host and the Blood…and distribute it…can they??? I don’t know…maybe someone could tell me if I am right.

Also…TLM is ok and acceptable as long as it is an Indult TLM
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Iohannes:
That is not true, a SSPX Mass can fullfill a sunday’s obligation as long as one does not deny the validly of the Novus Ordo and the intention is not schismatic.
 
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dumspirospero:
But the Priest are in Schism and I don’t believe they are allowed to consecrate the Host and the Blood…and distribute it…can they??? I don’t know…maybe someone could tell me if I am right.

Also…TLM is ok and acceptable as long as it is an Indult TLM
That is incorrect.
  1. Concretely this means that the Masses offered by the priests of
    the Society of St. Pius X are ]valid, but illicit i.e., contrary to Canon
    Law. The Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony, however, require that the priest enjoys the faculties of the diocese or has proper delegation. Since that is not the case with these priests, these sacraments are invalid. It remains true, however, that, if the faithful are genuinely ignorant that the priests of the Society of St. Pius X do not have the proper faculty to absolve, the Church supplied these faculties so that the sacrament was valid
    (cf. Code of Canon Law c. 144).
  1. The situation of the faithful attending chapels of the Society of
    St. Pius X is more complicated. They may attend Mass there primarily because of an attraction to the earlier form of the Roman Rite in which case they incur no penalty.
unavoce.org/Protocol539-99.htm
 
Dumspirospero,
Iohannes is correct. My sister is an actual member of a SSPX group. One may fill one's Sunday obligation there as long as schism is not the intent. Any ligitamate priest may consecrate the Host. However, there is a dispute on whether the SSPX may marry people or hear confessions. All of their other sacraments are valid. The original bishops who started the SSPX were excamunicated by the Pope, however, those who attend their Mass and are ordained to serve the SSPX are in schism. Glad I could clarify.
 
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Tradcat89:
Dumspirospero,
Code:
 Iohannes is correct. My sister is an actual member of a SSPX group. One may fill one's Sunday obligation there as long as schism is not the intent. Any ligitamate priest may consecrate the Host. However, there is a dispute on whether the SSPX may marry people or hear confessions. All of their other sacraments are valid. The original bishops who started the SSPX were excamunicated by the Pope, however, those who attend their Mass and are ordained to serve the SSPX are in schism.   Glad I could clarify.
Another thing to note also when the Society of Saint John Vianney regularized their order with Rome, there was not a demand to rehear confessions, convalidate marriages, they were valid and licit all along. The SSJV did not have to recant anything or alter any position, they were just regularized. They did not recieve stripends for their “illicit” Mass during their “schism”. Bishop Rangel had his bishopric title recongized by Rome even though he was ordained by the 4 SSPX Bishop. Orders are Orders.
 
I concede my lack of knowledge…I still new and learning about all of this. IT is kind of weird though that the SSPX Priest can perform some sacraments, but not others. Thanks for the help.
 
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dumspirospero:
I concede my lack of knowledge…I still new and learning about all of this. IT is kind of weird though that the SSPX Priest can perform some sacraments, but not others. Thanks for the help.
As for hearing confessions, technically that is a privilege reserved to the bishop. Every priest who hears confessions must receive the “faculty” from the bishop. But that’s another thread!
 
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dumspirospero:
I concede my lack of knowledge…I still new and learning about all of this. IT is kind of weird though that the SSPX Priest can perform some sacraments, but not others. Thanks for the help.
An Order is an Order. The Catholic Church still considers the schismatic Eastern Orthodox Holy Communion to be valid.
 
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dumspirospero:
I concede my lack of knowledge…I still new and learning about all of this. IT is kind of weird though that the SSPX Priest can perform some sacraments, but not others. Thanks for the help.
The whole mess with SSPX is something to avoid like poison. If you wish knowledge here are some nuggets from Holy Mother Church.

Bishop warns Faithful against attending SSPX
“Since the members of the society have rejected union with the Holy Father, no Catholic may attend or participate in Masses offered by priests of the Society of St. Pius X . . . without embracing the same schism which the society itself embraces,” Bishop Vasa wrote in a Feb. 26 letter placed in parish bulletins.
Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz -After “engaging in extensive consultation over many months”–according to the Lincoln diocesan newspaper–Bishop Bruskewitz informed his flock that groups such as Planned Parenthood, Catholics for a Free Choice, Call to Action, the Freemasons, the Hemlock Society, and the Society of St. Pius X are “totally incompatible with the Catholic Faith.”
Therefore any Catholic in the Diocese of Lincoln who remains a member of these groups after April 15, 1996 is under interdict, a formal canonical term meaning that the affected person will not be able to receive any sacraments or sacramentals, including Holy Communion. If such a person persists in such membership after May 15, 1996, they “will by that very fact (ipso facto latae sententiae)” be excommunicated, which adds the additional burden of exclusion from any Church office.
The one thing that should be emphasized in this discussion is the extent of the real evidence for the schism. Why would any faithful Catholic even consider attending and SSPX mass? To attend gives assent to schism and to do that leads one out of the church.

Catholic Culture
(a) The decision of the Pope that there is a schism.
(b) The decision of the Catholic Church to the same effect.
(c) The teaching of Cardinal Castillo Lara former President of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, again, that there is a schism.
(d) The teaching of Pope Pius XII that an episcopal consecration against the will of the Pope is an offense against divine law as well as against human law (Apostolorum Principis [1958]).
As a matter of canon law the act of 30th June 1988 fits the definition of schism contained in the Code of Canon Law. It is not any of us who decide this. The Church in Ecclesia Dei Adflicta does so. Canon law can only be interpreted by the law-maker (Canon 16).
(f) Vatican I in Pastor Aeternus requires Catholics to obey decisions of the Holy See in matters of this kind.
(g) The Society of St. Pius X is unable to cite from 2000 years of Tradition any pope doctor or council to justify episcopal consecration against the express will of the Pope.
(h) The Society of St. Pius X and its apologists have to misquote a canonist in order to defend their case. In addition as we have shown in “Schism, Obedience and the Society of St. Pius X,” the SSPX even has to rewrite the Catholic definitions of schism and obedience to justify its position.
What more evidence do these people want? Our own experience has shown us that even an ex cathedra definition by the Pope, or a direct revelation from Our Lord Himself, would not move some of them. Some would no doubt say, "But, Cardinal Lara says. . . " Has it now come to such a stage that, for traditionalists, a schism is decided by the authoritative voice of a Davies, a Scott, or a Williamson? Heaven preserve us from such a break with Tradition. Whatever qualities and merits these people have, it is obvious that not one of them knows what the primacy of Peter is all about.
 
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Iohannes:
An Order is an Order. The Catholic Church still considers the schismatic Eastern Orthodox Holy Communion to be valid.
This is an excellent comparison. This is a sacramentally valid Mass, but I am uncertain how it would “fulfill the Sunday obligation” since this is an obligation imposed on Catholics to attend a Catholic Mass. If this is not so then theoretically one could “fulfill the Sunday obligation” without ever attending a Catholic Church, but rather attending a Russian Orthodox church, then a SSPX chapel, then some other schismatic group with valid sacraments. I think one has passed the “Sunday obligation” question at this point.
 
That makes a lot of sense! Going to an SSPX church = big no no. Having alter dancers, lay people distribute communion dispite Apostolistic tradition affirmed by the Council of Trent, attending protestant services, having an archbishop wearing a cheesehad during a homily, having voodoo witch doctors at Catholic service and other nonsense = good.

It doesn’t make sense to slander the conservative doctrine of the SSPX by associating them with liberal murder groups like Planned Parenthood or muster them with the Free Masons who one can argue have infiltrated the Church during the Second Vatican Council. Moreover, take a look in the mirror and we see nuns giving to pro-abortion groups and bishops cowering over pro-abortion politicians.

While I do not attend an SSPX church and I pray that some how the Holy See and SSPX find a comprimise, I find it hysterical that people dislike the traditionalists more than the protestants that eventually infiltrated the church and changed it (and continue to do) so much.

The more I think about it, there more sense it made to throw out the ArchBishop of the SSPX out of the Church at the time as some of the priests then and now will stop at nothing to introduce practices that are the antithesis of that of the traditional teachings of the Church.
 
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Voice_Of_Reason:
That makes a lot of sense! Going to an SSPX church = big no no. Having alter dancers, lay people distribute communion dispite Apostolistic tradition affirmed by the Council of Trent, attending protestant services, having an archbishop wearing a cheesehad during a homily, having voodoo witch doctors at Catholic service and other nonsense = good.

It doesn’t make sense to slander the conservative doctrine of the SSPX by associating them with liberal murder groups like Planned Parenthood or muster them with the Free Masons who one can argue have infiltrated the Church during the Second Vatican Council. Moreover, take a look in the mirror and we see nuns giving to pro-abortion groups and bishops cowering over pro-abortion politicians.
Your reasoning and knowledge of the faith seems to go in circles. 🙂 The subject is SSPX period…not liturgical shenanigans of other far out groups. Lets stick to the topic. SSPX would be good if they were true Traditionalists. A true and faithful Traditionalist does not deny the Church’s right to teach and to hold counsels and to change traditions (small “t”). The true Traditionalists in the church, stay in the church and obey. They fight the good fight to achieve a return to the Church’s liturgical roots of reverence and the beauty without becoming schismatic.

Luther thought he knew it all too. Right! The SSPX and Luther have more in common than the good and faithful Traditionalist of today.

Pax
 
First off, don’t question by religious education.

Pope Leo I once stated “He that sees another in error, and endeavors not to correct it, testifies himself to be in error.” There was error and still is in Vatican II. The support of modernism, which many Popes (including Pius X) warned us against is very much so in the Church today.

Your point about Luther is laughable. In fact, you have it backwards. Let’s dust of our copies of the Catechism of Trent and compare the SSPX with the post Vatican II church and see who is aligned more so with the protestant sects.

BTW, isn’t it quite Mason like to defned someone right or wrong no matter what? You might remember all of President Bill Clinton’s scandals, especially his impeachment proceedings.Speaking of Clinton, is that Nigerian priest that gave communion to Clinton still associated with the Church? But if you’re an old archbishop that tries to appoint leaders to your group early, then your suspnded from the Church. That’s fair…
 
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Voice_Of_Reason:
First off, don’t question by religious education.

Pope Leo I once stated “He that sees another in error, and endeavors not to correct it, testifies himself to be in error.” There was error and still is in Vatican II. The support of modernism, which many Popes (including Pius X) warned us against is very much so in the Church today.

Your point about Luther is laughable. In fact, you have it backwards. Let’s dust of our copies of the Catechism of Trent and compare the SSPX with the post Vatican II church and see who is aligned more so with the protestant sects.

BTW, isn’t it quite Mason like to defned someone right or wrong no matter what? You might remember all of President Bill Clinton’s scandals, especially his impeachment proceedings.Speaking of Clinton, is that Nigerian priest that gave communion to Clinton still associated with the Church? But if you’re an old archbishop that tries to appoint leaders to your group early, then your suspnded from the Church. That’s fair…
And you young whipper snapper may choose your words according to Clintonesq and be dis-respectful of the church and others but then you were not raised in the church before Vat II evidently. Obedience is and was a key to Traditional Catholic training. Something you obviously missed.

If you don’t mind I do not argue with young brash opinionated collage age hotheads. At my age I use my cane for walking not swatting flies and rash young people with no manners into the ozone. 😃 Has your mother never taught you manners? Sheese! 😃
 
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Marie:
Luther thought he knew it all too. Right! The SSPX and Luther have more in common than the good and faithful Traditionalist of today.

Pax
It is my understanding that there is a big difference, i.e. Luther’s teaching was heretical whereas the SSPX does not teach heresy . Rome obviously recognizes this fact in the recent negotiations with SSPX and in the validity of the SSPX Mass. 🙂
 
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JCB:
It is my understanding that there is a big difference, i.e. Luther’s teaching was heretical whereas the SSPX does not teach heresy . Rome obviously recognizes this fact in the recent negotiations with SSPX and in the validity of the SSPX Mass. 🙂
The Vatican takes a very long time to boot out a schismatic group. They work to avoid it. It’s their job. Luther did not get the immediate boot either.

The SSPX cannot have it both ways. They deny this and that and still proclaim their loyalty. They bash JPII at every chance they get. It does not take a brain surgeon to see the similarities. Luther did the same for years. Meantime, until the SSPX and the Vatican work out the differences, the SSPX is off limits for those who ARE loyal to Christ and Holy Mother Church.
 
Chris in Mich:
In a recent article www.freep.com/news/religion/cath3_20040803.htm a Jesuit Priest tried to make the point that “When the pope authorized bishops to allow this mass in 1984, the idea was that this was a pastoral response to older people who still are so attached to this older mass that they need it,” “The idea was never to create a new desire in people for this mass.” It was the first I’d heard of this view, perhaps as the TLM is growing this is the resistance that is mounting.
The *Detroit Free Press * has a habit of dragging out Father Thomas Reese, SJ, (editor of *America * magazine), who is a liberal priest. They quoted him in a couple of recent articles. Why they quote HIM is a mystery – he isn’t local. But that’s the ultra-liberal *Free Press * for you.

'thann
 
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Marie:
The Vatican takes a very long time to boot out a schismatic group. They work to avoid it. It’s their job. Luther did not get the immediate boot either.

The SSPX cannot have it both ways. They deny this and that and still proclaim their loyalty. They bash JPII at every chance they get. It does not take a brain surgeon to see the similarities. Luther did the same for years. Meantime, until the SSPX and the Vatican work out the differences, the SSPX is off limits for those who ARE loyal to Christ and Holy Mother Church.
Granted Marie, I am not a brain surgeon in fact I am not the brightest bulb out there however for some reason God has given my the grace to recognize truth and sometimes the truth seems harsh. I do not deny that the Pope has the right to excommunicate the bishops of the SSPX and I understand the problem of loyalty the SSPX have. However (as you know ) obedience is a lower virtue than justice and justice demands that one follows God first.
Acts- Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men!”
and of course you all familiar with Thomas Aquinas….
.” Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God. Therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things.”

and so I would be very careful of pointing fingers because you just might poke out your own eye with the four fingers pointing back at you… 🙂
 
The SSPX cannot have it both ways. They deny this and that and still proclaim their loyalty. They bash JPII at every chance they get. It does not take a brain surgeon to see the similarities. Luther did the same for years. .
I have to agree with you. The liturgy is a temptation to those who prefer the 1962 Missal but there is much danger in the philosophy of some SSPXers. And while there is leeway to attend on occasion, it is discouraged for this reason. Actually joining an SSPX chapel is a serious matter.

I have an acquaintance who is a member of an SSPX parish and he put me on his mailing list - believe me that is an eye opener as to how hostile some of them are.

One thing that totally surprised me is that some of them truly are very hateful about jews and some other Christian religions.
 
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JCB:
Granted Marie, I am not a brain surgeon in fact I am not the brightest bulb out there however for some reason God has given my the grace to recognize truth and sometimes the truth seems harsh. I do not deny that the Pope has the right to excommunicate the bishops of the SSPX and I understand the problem of loyalty the SSPX have. However (as you know ) obedience is a lower virtue than justice and justice demands that one follows God first.
Acts- Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than men!”
and of course you all familiar with Thomas Aquinas….
.” Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God. Therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things.”

and so I would be very careful of pointing fingers because you just might poke out your own eye with the four fingers pointing back at you… 🙂
Having been born and raised Catholic,long before VII and SSPX came around, I know the core foundation of a Catholic is obedience and humility and Trust in Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide His church. We know from history and from our faith that those who second guess Christ and His chosen Apostolic successors soon find themselves outside the church. Not having been raised in the post modern dissenting era, I stick with the Pope and the Bishops Christ chose to lead.

I find most protestors quite far from being Catholic and much closer to Protestant. So, that’s the way it is. Dissent has never worked to improve Christ’s church and it never will. Christ raises up prophets and leaders in every age. Trouble now days is every Johnny come lately and Joe six pack in the pew thinks he is a prophet. Most are just blow hards who have no mandate from Christ to open their mouth about how the Magisterium works.
 
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Marie:
I find most protestors quite far from being Catholic and much closer to Protestant. So, that’s the way it is. Dissent has never worked to improve Christ’s church and it never will. Christ raises up prophets and leaders in every age. Trouble now days is every Johnny come lately and Joe six pack in the pew thinks he is a prophet. Most are just blow hards who have no mandate from Christ to open their mouth about how the Magisterium works.
What do you think of the FSSP or indult Mass today ? Again, as you know these are a direct result of the action of Archbishop Levebvre. Perhaps this is a case where dissent has or will improve the Church ?
 
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