Latin Mass/Novus Ordo

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JNB said:
“Offcial” evidence on Abp.Bugnini being a Freemason may never come out of the Vatican. That said, the FACT is that Abp.Bugnini was severely demonoted from being the head of the Conregation of Divine Worship, in charge of the liturgy for the entire Latin rite, to being the Papal Nuncio to Irans Latin Rite Catholics, essentially being in charge of 500 to 1000 laity, in 1975., sadly the damage was allready done.
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The Novus Ordo Missae was validly promulgated by Pope Paul VI and celebrated by him and his successors. Any “damage” would thus have to be attributed to him. He could have easily said “no.” And we’ve no idea what prompted Pope Paul to transfer him. It may have been for any number of reasons.
 
JNB said:
“Offcial” evidence on Abp.Bugnini being a Freemason may never come out of the Vatican. That said, the FACT is that Abp.Bugnini was severely demonoted from being the head of the Conregation of Divine Worship, in charge of the liturgy for the entire Latin rite, to being the Papal Nuncio to Irans Latin Rite Catholics, essentially being in charge of 500 to 1000 laity, in 1975., sadly the damage was allready done.
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That is a fact alright!
 
I have no problem attributing damage to Paul. The fact is, his much-discussed Missal is one of the rarest liturgical books in the world. I wonder how many churches actually use it. Certainly not the vast majority of American parishes, where a 1985 Indult translation of a 1975 Missal reigns supreme, with only a supplemental booklet to reflect some, hardly all, of the changes since 1985.

As for Annibale, considering the man had zero expertise in Iran/Persia, didn’t know the language, had zero diplomatic training or history…it’s beyond bizarre that he went from his liturgical work to his diplomatic career in Tehran. Beyond bizarre.
 
AlexV said:
I have no problem attributing damage to Paul. The fact is, his much-discussed Missal is one of the rarest liturgical books in the world. I wonder how many churches actually use it. Certainly not the vast majority of American parishes, where a 1985 Indult translation of a 1975 Missal reigns supreme, with only a supplemental booklet to reflect some, hardly all, of the changes since 1985.

As for Annibale, considering the man had zero expertise in Iran/Persia, didn’t know the language, had zero diplomatic training or history…it’s beyond bizarre that he went from his liturgical work to his diplomatic career in Tehran. Beyond bizarre.
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And that’s what it boils down to: what you regard as damage, I regard as a gift. We’re poised to have two liturgies, possibly, in the coming months. At some point, Catholics are going to have to learn to get along on this issue.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
And that’s what it boils down to: what you regard as damage, I regard as a gift. We’re poised to have two liturgies, possibly, in the coming months. At some point, Catholics are going to have to learn to get along on this issue.
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Honestly, I’m afraid that if the TLM becomes popular, the traditional NO will be taken away stating that the innovators already gave in offering the traditionalists the TLM.

Not good news for me.

I think the TLM should be offered to any one who wants it. I will just be very sad if mine is gone for it.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Honestly, I’m afraid that if the TLM becomes popular, the traditional NO will be taken away stating that the innovators already gave in offering the traditionalists the TLM.

Not good news for me.

I think the TLM should be offered to any one who wants it. I will just be very sad if mine is gone for it.
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I think that we will always have a vernacular Mass (the day we don’t is the day I start a “Society for the Vernacular Mass,” obedient, but persistent, along the lines of Una Voce or Adoremus), but I don’t see why anyone who wants the Pauline Mass in Latin regularly would prefer it to the TLM. I realize it’s not simply about Latin, but could you elaborate, Netmil(name removed by moderator)?
 
JKirkLVNV said:
but I don’t see why anyone who wants the Pauline Mass in Latin regularly would prefer it to the TLM.
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Why JKirk! We actually agree!

Those who advocate a completely Latin Novus ordo should just go to a Tridentine Low Mass.

Silly Parishoners…Latin is for the Tridentine!
 
Missa_Solemnis said:
Why JKirk! We actually agree!

Those who advocate a completely Latin Novus ordo should just go to a Tridentine Low Mass.

Silly Parishoners…Latin is for the Tridentine!
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I wouldn’t go so far, nor call anyone silly, esp. Netmil(name removed by moderator).

I would attend the Tridentine, if it were in the vernacular (which it easily could be) and if I could hear it. Both of these are, I think, the chief virtues of the Pauline (hearing it and understanding it).
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I think that we will always have a vernacular Mass (the day we don’t is the day I start a “Society for the Vernacular Mass,” obedient, but persistent, along the lines of Una Voce or Adoremus), but I don’t see why anyone who wants the Pauline Mass in Latin regularly would prefer it to the TLM. I realize it’s not simply about Latin, but could you elaborate, Netmil(name removed by moderator)?
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Hey Kirk!
The Holy Mass celebrated at my parish is not an NO in Latin (although it’s offered on Wednesday mornings) but rather the Vernacular NO with no innovations. Kyrie in Greek, sprinking of Latin.

That is my fear. Right now I am seeing a move toward what my Pastor (may God Bless him and grant him long life) calls, “The Holy Mass done the right way.” The EWTN type mass.
You know and I know that the innovators believe that the mass of “The Spirit of VII” is what every Catholic wants. When the TLM is universally given, will the innovators say, “Look at all we have given you.” And work to eliminate our Holy Mass?

Non-innovative and in the vernacular.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Hey Kirk!
The Holy Mass celebrated at my parish is not an NO in Latin (although it’s offered on Wednesday mornings) but rather the Vernacular NO with no innovations. Kyrie in Greek, sprinking of Latin.

That is my fear. Right now I am seeing a move toward what my Pastor (may God Bless him and grant him long life) calls, “The Holy Mass done the right way.” The EWTN type mass.
You know and I know that the innovators believe that the mass of “The Spirit of VII” is what every Catholic wants. When the TLM is universally given, will the innovators say, “Look at all we have given you.” And work to eliminate our Holy Mass?

Non-innovative and in the vernacular.
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No, I doubt it very much, dear friend. The innovations aren’t enshrined in the rubrics. If anything, you’ll see a tightening up of those rubrics, possibly an elimination of options (admittedly, something that CAN be a problem in the NO). And the “Spirit of Vatican II,” what Fr. Neuhaus calls the “silly season” is passing. You’re worried that the Mass celebrated correctedly will be suppressed and all we’ll have is a choice between the TLM and a “Barney the Dinosaur Mass?” Put your fears to rest. Even the worst bishops know silly when they see it (though they may still tolerate the occassional silliness, they aren’t going to enshrine it).
 
JKirkLVNV said:
No, I doubt it very much, dear friend. The innovations aren’t enshrined in the rubrics. If anything, you’ll see a tightening up of those rubrics, possibly an elimination of options (admittedly, something that CAN be a problem in the NO). And the “Spirit of Vatican II,” what Fr. Neuhaus calls the “silly season” is passing. You’re worried that the Mass celebrated correctedly will be suppressed and all we’ll have is a choice between the TLM and a “Barney the Dinosaur Mass?” Put your fears to rest. Even the worst bishops know silly when they see it (though they may still tolerate the occassional silliness, they aren’t going to enshrine it).
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Makes sense!
I think I feel a little better.

But you know the liturgists love their power. They LOVE the “silly season”. I’ll keep praying that my children can one day move anywhere in the country and find a parish celebrating the liturgy that we do back home.

(not like I want them to move away or anything, really)
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I wouldn’t go so far, nor call anyone silly, esp. Netmil(name removed by moderator).

I would attend the Tridentine, if it were in the vernacular (which it easily could be) and if I could hear it. Both of these are, I think, the chief virtues of the Pauline (hearing it and understanding it).
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Hmn…personally I think a vernacular Tridentine would be the answer to all these problems. I support you 100% there.

As for hearing it? No…afraid not.

I would still recommend the prayers of the Mass that are silent, remain silent, in a vernacular Tridentine Mass.
 
Missa_Solemnis said:
Hmn…personally I think a vernacular Tridentine would be the answer to all these problems. I support you 100% there.

As for hearing it? No…afraid not.

I would still recommend the prayers of the Mass that are silent, remain silent, in a vernacular Tridentine Mass.
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I favor greater spaces of silence during the Mass, but I think the ability for the faithful to hear is entirely beneficial and brings home the reality of what’s happening. It happens whether one can hear or not, but I cannot imagine not wanting to hear those precious words.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
I favor greater spaces of silence during the Mass, but I think the ability for the faithful to hear is entirely beneficial and brings home the reality of what’s happening. It happens whether one can hear or not, but I cannot imagine not wanting to hear those precious words.
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Well when you put it so eloquently…perhaps a tad bit louder would be okay.

But the idea of ‘talking to God’ (though unnessecary since God can hear anything) is still very beautiful on its own.

In the Tridentine Low Mass…almost everything is audible. The canon is whispered, but without the music, you can hear it as well.
 
Missa_Solemnis said:
Well when you put it so eloquently…perhaps a tad bit louder would be okay.

But the idea of ‘talking to God’ (though unnessecary since God can hear anything) is still very beautiful on its own.

In the Tridentine Low Mass…almost everything is audible. The canon is whispered, but without the music, you can hear it as well.
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Good to know. My one experience of the TLM (in person) left me cold. That was one of the reasons (the choir sang through the consecration. The priest actually finished the consecration while they were still on the Sanctus).
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Good to know. My one experience of the TLM (in person) left me cold. That was one of the reasons (the choir sang through the consecration. The priest actually finished the consecration while they were still on the Sanctus).
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Well thats actually an abuse…So…

I encourage you to try it again…at a parish that isnt rushing the Mass.
 
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