Latin Mass/Novus Ordo

[SnorterLuster]

It’s called either “the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” or just “Mass.” Our priests are clear in their teaching (admittedly, it isn’t mentioned every Sunday, except in the canon of the Mass).

I’m just curious on how the laity in your parish refer to the Mass. In my old NO parish most of the laity usually just referred to it in the short form as “the Mass.” By the time I left, a very sizable minority had started to refer to it as Sunday Services. As I remember it, our priest referred to it as “the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”, but the bulletin referred to it as the “Celebration of the Mass” or the “Gathering of our Catholic Community”. Is this your experience?

 

[Titus1728]

I have had this curious “well, I won’t understand what’s going on” response of the vernacular mass crowd when I bring up the Latin liturgy.

I must admit this always leaves me scratching my head in amazement.

Not understand what’s going on? Haven’t these people ever heard of translations? In the pre-1962 missal there is latin on one page and english on the other. It took me a few minutes to find my place when I first started attending the TLM and then after that it became easy. I even found myself starting to pick up the Latin as time went by. In fact, because it took more effort on my part I found myself being more involved with what was going on than I ever did with the vernacular mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

Also, I myself grew up perfectly understanding the Mass. (raised as a TLM kid)
Its this Novus Ordo nonsense thats confusing.

The NO is not nonsense.
The garbage put into it by the Innovators in Power is nonsense.

That’s why Mother Angelica called it the “Electric church”. You get a shock every time you walk in.

 

[netmilsmom]

I have had this curious “well, I won’t understand what’s going on” response of the vernacular mass crowd when I bring up the Latin liturgy.

I must admit this always leaves me scratching my head in amazement.

Not understand what’s going on? Haven’t these people ever heard of translations?

To me, it’s like watching, “The Passion of the Christ”.
The subtitles were nice but I knew what was happening much more than my (at the time) Protestant hubby. He had studied the Bible and knew the story but I had done the Stations of the Cross so many times that the progression of the movie was almost second nature.

 

[netmilsmom]

I’m just curious on how the laity in your parish refer to the Mass. In my old NO parish most of the laity usually just referred to it in the short form as “the Mass.” By the time I left, a very sizable minority had started to refer to it as Sunday Services. As I remember it, our priest referred to it as “the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”, but the bulletin referred to it as the “Celebration of the Mass” or the “Gathering of our Catholic Community”. Is this your experience?

At my parish, we say “Holy Mass”, but we are not the Catholic Community up the street!

 

[Joysong]

That’s why Mother Angelica called it the “Electric church”. You get a shock every time you walk in.

What a scandalous comment to make on a public religious program. Totally irreverant coming from a cloistered religious nun. I can just hear the laughter. But then some think the sun rises and sets in everything she says. I take offense by this, not that it isn’t sometimes true, but that she made the statement publicly giving bad example through critiquing the sacred liturgy … if those were her words, and not hearsay.

Also scandalous to repeat it in a public forum, as though all NO liturgies are “shocking” unless they follow the EWTN format.

Two cents.

 

[Walking_Home]

The NO is not nonsense.
The garbage put into it by the Innovators in Power is nonsense.

That’s why Mother Angelica called it the “Electric church”. You get a shock every time you walk in.

---

I wish we had more religious like Mother Angelica. God gave her the strength—to speak the truth.

 

[Joysong]

Speaking what one believes to be the truth is usually backed up with experience, not hearsay. In a cloistered situation, everything she learns from others is hearsay, for she would not have the ability to obtain personal experience.

That is the problem with many who write on these forums. Their experience is limited to the church a few miles away where one noted some irregularites, and maybe even an abuse or two. Other than that, I doubt unless one travels extensively, they would have personal observations from attending several liturgies nation-wide.

Rumors spread like wildfire. The 30-or-so people who regularly frequent this section and post their complaints are not typical of the thousands of parishes nationwide. I take exception to these comments as being untypical for most churches that use the normative Pauline liturgy.

I believe Pope Benedict, together with his advisors, will ultimately clean house and bring these reprobates into line. My parish and many others I have attended are completely orthodox. No complaints — but then some believe I am either exaggerating or a liberal, a modernist, an approver of innovations, and other such ridiculous commentary. Quite a judgment to make when not knowing the facts.

 

[netmilsmom]

What a scandalous comment to make on a public religious program.

I’m sure she won’t mind at all that you’re offended.

Totally irreverant coming from a cloistered religious nun. I can just hear the laughter. But then some think the sun rises and sets in everything she says. I take offense by this, not that it isn’t. sometimes true, but that she made the statement publicly giving bad example through critiquing the sacred liturgy
Also scandalous to repeat it in a public forum, as though all NO liturgies are “shocking” unless they follow the EWTN format.

If scandal involves defending my Holy Mother Church from those who want to make it nothing but a community meal, I stand proudly scandalous.

Mother was defending her Spouse. Perhaps you have never had someone disrespect a person you loved, or perhaps you don’t care as much as she does, but God Love her for saying the things that others could not.
According to pg. 264 (the page I just happen to have stopped at last night)…
"He was bombarding the congregation. The Cardinal (Mahony)……After learning of the situation, one elderly curial cardinal was heard to comment, “Mother Angelica has the guts to tell him what we do not.”

… if those were her words, and not hearsay.

I’m used to you doubting what I say so buy the Raymond Arroyo book and read it. You’ll see where she says it. I’d give you a page number, but I have to get my girls to GS and really don’t have the time.

 

[netmilsmom]

Speaking what one believes to be the truth is usually backed up with experience, not hearsay. In a cloistered situation, everything she learns from others is hearsay, for she would not have the ability to obtain personal experience.

Maybe before YOU slander Mother, you should read the book. She was given permission by the Vatican to travel and do public appearances.

That is the problem with many who write on these forums. Their experience is limited to the church a few miles away where one noted some irregularites, and maybe even an abuse or two. Other than that, I doubt unless one travels extensively, they would have personal observations from attending several liturgies nation-wide.

Hmmmmm.
Traveling and talking to people around the country and around the world. Come on, you’re on the internet, we all talk. And then there’s YouTube and the Roamin Catholic columns? Those on the internet are far from in a bubble.

Rumors spread like wildfire. The 30-or-so people who regularly frequent this section and post their complaints are not typical of the thousands of parishes nationwide. I take exception to these comments as being untypical for most churches that use the normative Pauline liturgy.

The pity of it is, with the news forums I’m on, the homeschooling forums I’m on and the parenting forums I’m on, when we talk about going to the local parish, the innovations are the norm and the norm also is that people go along but don’t like them.

but then some believe I am either exaggerating or a liberal, a modernist, an approver of innovations, and other such ridiculous commentary. Quite a judgment to make when not knowing the facts.

Says the poster who just wrote the quoted post above.

 

[Joysong]

Perhaps you have never had someone disrespect a person you loved, or perhaps you don’t care as much as she does, but God Love her for saying the things that others could not.

Assumption: I don’t care as much? You do not know how deeply it bothers me when any person WHOMSOEVER disrespects the holy sacrifice of the Mass in WHATSOEVER form it is celebrated. My posts have always been clearly defensive of this, as you well know. Being a TLM advocate or EWTN-style NO as Mother is, gives nobody a right to disrespect it even if there are clearly abuses, nor to disrespect those who prefer one Mass to another. As I said, it is my opinion (two-cents) and one which I have a right to voice here.

I have no doubt about Mother’s relationship with Cardinal Mahoney, nor that there were problems between them. That is not the area of hearsay I was referring to at all. But if someone comes to the monastery or writes in that they had a problem with their priest and/or liturgy, it is based on that person’s perception, not her personal experience of it.

Maybe she could comment that she heard reports that say such and so, and if they are true as told to her, are a cause for concern. This is probably what the Pope is doing now as he prepares to address some of those matters that come to his attention.

All in all, I still maintain it is the exception, not the norm, and those who believe it is the norm are quite mistaken, considering the great number of parishes in the US.

 

[Karin]

All in all, I still maintain it is the exception, not the norm, and those who believe it is the norm are quite mistaken, considering the great number of parishes in the US.

have you ever left your little parish in PA and ventured to another?
there are way too many parishes that have abuses in them…
I have lived in 5 states (AZ,MT,WA, NY,NJ) and none of the parishes where abuse free) and in the one I am currently in it took me 5 years to find an “orthodox” parish…without a single abuse…I thank God for that

 

[netmilsmom]

That is not the area of hearsay I was referring to at all. But if someone comes to the monastery or writes in that they had a problem with their priest and/or liturgy, it is based on that person’s perception, not her personal experience of it.

Joysong:

… if those were her words, and not hearsay.

Maybe she could comment that she heard reports that say such and so, and if they are true as told to her, are a cause for concern. This is probably what the Pope is doing now as he prepares to address some of those matters that come to his attention.

She had a stroke and can no longer speak.

 

[Joysong]

The pity of it is, with the news forums I’m on, the homeschooling forums I’m on and the parenting forums I’m on, when we talk about going to the local parish, the** innovations** are the norm and the norm also is that people go along but don’t like them.

You would need to give statistics that prove at least half of these thousands of churches use innovations, to make that assumption.

The problem with those who are disgruntled is not always that their complaints stem from abuses or innovations, but that some parishes do not conform to one’s personal taste. This is hardly abuse, as you well know. Celebrations with lawful rubrics or styles of music that happen to oppose one’s preference, are frequently aired here by grumblers, yet they are completely licit, until and “IF” the Pope decides to change them.

 

[netmilsmom]

You would need to give statistics that prove at least half of these thousands of churches use innovations, to make that assumption.

When the majority of the posters here freely admit innovation is the norm, the ball is really in your court to prove your reality.

The problem with those who are disgruntled is not always that their complaints stem from abuses or innovations, but that some parishes do not conform to one’s personal taste. This is hardly abuse, as you well know. Celebrations with lawful rubrics or styles of music that happen to oppose one’s preference, are frequently aired here by grumblers, yet they are completely licit, until and “IF” the Pope decides to change them.

Yup. No one said not to juggle at the “Our Father” so why not?

 

[Joysong]

I’m well aware of Mother’s stroke, as I watch something on the program almost daily. You were quoting a statement she apparently made many years ago on TV or else in Raymond’s book. I have no idea where you picked it up, but if she made it personally on air several years ago, it is not indicative of our present liturgies that have already been corrected with the later documents. It seems the words must have pleased you in order to repeat them from so old a broadcast. We know some of these classics go back to the 80’s.

When the majority of the posters here freely admit innovation is the norm, the ball is really in your court to prove your reality.

Hardly, Net. There are 41,500 members here, yet only 30 or so habitually post and complain. Not a good statistic to base one’s perception on, is it.

 

[anamchara]

What a scandalous comment to make on a public religious program. Totally irreverant coming from a cloistered religious nun. I can just hear the laughter. But then some think the sun rises and sets in everything she says. I take offense by this, not that it isn’t sometimes true, but that she made the statement publicly giving bad example through critiquing the sacred liturgy … if those were her words, and not hearsay.

Also scandalous to repeat it in a public forum, as though all NO liturgies are “shocking” unless they follow the EWTN format.

Two cents.

I have to say I actually like a great deal of what Mother has said in watching her on EWTN. But I think I’ll give her a break on this one and just chalk it up to an age thing. Older people love just telling like it is I doubt she meant all N.O. Masses.

However, I do believe it’s aganist forum rules to degrade the N.O. or the TLM and argue over which one is the better choice. So with that in mind I don’t think it’s a good idea to take what Mother said out of context and use it in here to promote one side or the other. Mother says a lot of things but you have to listen to the whole thing not just one word or phrase.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Attending the Latin Mass has made me resolve to learn Latin in earnest. In the meantime, understanding is not a problem, as I follow along by reading the English in my missal. Even the English translation is beautiful and poetic! Some examples:

I will go in unto the Altar of God. To God, Who giveth joy to my youth.

Let my prayer, O Lord, be directed as incense in Thy sight: the lifting up of my hands as an evening sacrifice.

O Lord, I have loved the beauty of Thy house: and the place where Thy glory dwelleth.

Amen! I have recently started attending a TLM (FSSP) parish, Mater Misericordiae, and have since joined the schola and am learning Latin!

I am in love with the traditional Latin Mass, it is so beautiful and sacred! (The NO Mass is indeed sacred and holy, however I have yet to find a parish that celebrates it as such. )

 

[Walking_Home]

Speaking what one believes to be the truth is usually backed up with experience, not hearsay. In a cloistered situation, everything she learns from others is hearsay, for she would not have the ability to obtain personal experience.

That is the problem with many who write on these forums. Their experience is limited to the church a few miles away where one noted some irregularites, and maybe even an abuse or two. Other than that, I doubt unless one travels extensively, they would have personal observations from attending several liturgies nation-wide.

Rumors spread like wildfire. The 30-or-so people who regularly frequent this section and post their complaints are not typical of the thousands of parishes nationwide. I take exception to these comments as being untypical for most churches that use the normative Pauline liturgy.

I believe Pope Benedict, together with his advisors, will ultimately clean house and bring these reprobates into line. My parish and many others I have attended are completely orthodox. No complaints — but then some believe I am either exaggerating or a liberal, a modernist, an approver of innovations, and other such ridiculous commentary. Quite a judgment to make when not knowing the facts.

---

Makes me wonder why you would purposely down play the current manipulation of our Mass----when the Church says otherwise.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[4.] “Certainly the liturgical reform inaugurated by the Council has greatly contributed to a more conscious, active and fruitful participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar on the part of the faithful.”[10] Even so, “shadows are not lacking”.[11] In this regard it is not possible to be silent about the abuses, even quite grave ones, against the nature of the Liturgy and the Sacraments as well as the tradition and the authority of the Church, which in our day not infrequently plague liturgical celebrations in one ecclesial environment or another. In some places the perpetration of liturgical abuses has become almost habitual, a fact which obviously cannot be allowed and must cease.

 

[anamchara]

I’m well aware of Mother’s stroke, as I watch something on the program almost daily.

Most of her talks are indeed from several years ago, they always put on the screen when they aired and actually you don’t even need that because when they go to the audience you can look at the clothes people are wearing and know what year it was…OH the things we wore!

Hardly, Net. There are 41,500 members here, yet only 30 or so habitually post and complain. Not a good statistic to base one’s perception on, is it.