Latin Mass/Novus Ordo

[anamchara]

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Makes me wonder why you would purposely down play the current manipulation of our Mass----when the Church says otherwise.

 

[Joysong]

Walking Home,

With reference to your link, titled Redemptionis Sacramentum* On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist, * this is exactly what I was referring to a couple of posts ago where I stated:

I have no idea where you picked it up, but if she made it personally on air several years ago, it is not indicative of our present liturgies that have already been corrected with the later documents.

Most parishes, I trust, were notified and have already made these corrections per this document and also the GIRM. We had representatives come to our diocese and give special instruction regarding new implementations on the liturgy. Many who left during the period allotted for experimentation are not aware that the clamps have been put on.

It is praiseworthy that the hierarchy has taken this corrective action, but it is still unknown to some who think they still exist in the wide proportion of those days. Thanks for posting it. I certainly don’t doubt there were some scandalous actions taking place, and said so in my posts. But I still maintain and believe it is not the norm for most parishes.

 

[Joysong]

Hi Anamchara,

I cannot put my finger on the document immediately, * but it permitted some leaway for liturgical actions due to the changes authorized by V-II, which many labeled “innovations.” Unfortunately, the pendulum swung too far to the extreme for those who took this liberty beyond what the Council envisioned. This happens frequently in civil law, too, yet ultimately results in better legislation to curb rampant wrongs that afflict society.

We just need patience, for God will ultimately inspire those changes that will bring forth a more purified liturgy.*

 

[SnorterLuster]

But I still maintain and believe it is not the norm for most parishes.

quote from Karin:
have you ever left your little parish in PA and ventured to another?

Since you don’t think people can make blanket statements about what occurs in other parishes, could you please answer Karin’s question?
Thanks

 

[Joysong]

Am I to believe that if I answer one way or another, my words will have merit? Well then, yes, absolutely. I speak from experience. Her question was stated tauntingly, and that’s why I avoided it.

 

[anamchara]

Hi Anamchara,

I cannot put my finger on the document immediately, * but it permitted some leaway for liturgical actions due to the changes authorized by V-II, which many labeled “innovations.” Unfortunately, the pendulum swung too far to the extreme for those who took this liberty beyond what the Council envisioned. This happens frequently in civil law, too, yet ultimately results in better legislation to curb rampant wrongs that afflict society.

We just need patience, for God will ultimately inspire those changes that will bring forth a more purified liturgy.*

Ahh ok, the old V-II issue…I agree with you the pendulum did seem to swing too far one way but this doesn’t mean because some of use altar girls at our Mass or our Mass is not like “EWTN Holy Mass” (another phrase I’m sick of read ) we are “innovators” I guess after being on this forum I see innovators as something horribly negative and that if you are one your pairsh has no reverence and probably has Barney Masses. The implications are there and it’s hard not to read it this way.

The word “innovator” probably needs to be taken out of this forum much like other negitive words that rag on the Traditionlists.

Balence is the key as I said before Joysong and I think you have this.

 

[SnorterLuster]

Am I to believe that if I answer one way or another, my words will have merit? Well then, yes, absolutely. I speak from experience. Her question was stated tauntingly, and that’s why I avoided it.

So I take it that you personally have visited at least half of the parishes in the U.S. +1? Or at least have the statistics to prove your assertions, as you have demanded of other posters?

Quote by Joysong
You would need to give statistics that prove at least half of these thousands of churches use innovations, to make that assumption.

 

[anamchara]

So I take it that you personally have visited at least half of the parishes in the U.S. +1? Or at least have the statistics to prove you assertions, as you have demanded of other posters?

And they have proved thier side with what? Utube? a very out of date which has been passed around news clipping dated 1984. How is there word much better? Oh ya one of them said they’d been to several parishes before finding one, so what…that still doesn’t make thier case. This is a huge country my goodness!

What’s with all the drilling? These threads often turn in to a ridiclous inquisition and usually going after one person and thier Catholicism.

Lets please take a breathe and dial it back. Let’s use some charity
come on and a group hug We are all Catholic sister and brothers and need to get along.

 

[netmilsmom]

However, I do believe it’s aganist forum rules to degrade the N.O. or the TLM and argue over which one is the better choice. So with that in mind I don’t think it’s a good idea to take what Mother said out of context and use it in here to promote one side or the other. Mother says a lot of things but you have to listen to the whole thing not just one word or phrase.

The pity of it is, there are actually very few people here who degrade either Holy Mass. Some, but not a lot.
What is brought up and shunned are the innovations put in. Those part of the Holy Mass not in the documents of Vatican II but rather the Spirit of Vatican II.

Anyone can go to the Roamin Catholic columns (a simple Google search will get a person to them) and read the evaluations of many if not all the parishes in a particular city. They are not put from a standpoint of “good” or “bad” but simply what goes on. See how many of those parishes follow the rubics or documents of VII. When I went throught the one for San Diego, I found only one parish without innovation. According to my family farther north, it’s even worse.

Which begs the question, if there are so many people who want a Holy Mass celebrated by the rubics with nothing added, why isn’t it offered?
Wonder why people come here to vent. That’s why.

Those who like an innovative Holy Mass sometimes don’t even have a clue that it is innovative at all.

 

[netmilsmom]

What’s with all the drilling? These threads often turn in to a ridiclous inquisition and usually going after one person and thier Catholicism. .

It’s easy to overcome if someone answers a direct question instead of ignoring.

It’s not really a discussion if one person asks and another ignores.

 

[netmilsmom]

And they have proved thier side with what? Utube? a very out of date which has been passed around news clipping dated 1984. How is there word much better? Oh ya one of them said they’d been to several parishes before finding one, so what…that still doesn’t make thier case. This is a huge country my goodness! .

“To disregard someone’s feelings is to disregard a person’s life” a dear friend of mine once said

Every bit of proof offered is dismissed with a wave of the hand, just like this.

 

[Karin]

“To disregard someone’s feelings is to disregard a person’s life” a dear friend of mine once said

Every bit of proof offered is dismissed with a wave of the hand, just like this.

I really dont think that **all **proof is dismissed with the wave of a hand…only the proof (from certain posters)

 

[SnorterLuster]

And they have proved thier side with what? Utube? a very out of date which has been passed around news clipping dated 1984. How is there word much better? Oh ya one of them said they’d been to several parishes before finding one, so what…that still doesn’t make thier case. This is a huge country my goodness!

When poster A makes a statement that “most parishes” have innovative Masses, I find it reasonable in my own mind that they are talking about their own experiences. By the context of most of these threads we are not talking macro Catholicism, we are talking of micro Catholicism.

Anyway poster A makes a point and poster B answers with an opinion and demands:

You would need to give statistics that prove at least half of these thousands of churches use innovations, to make that assumption.

All I am trying to find out is if poster B is willing to apply the same standards to her opinions as she demands of others. If she is not willing to follow her own rules, then why should I give any extra credence to her opinion over poster A?

What’s with all the drilling? These threads often turn in to a ridiclous inquisition and usually going after one person and thier Catholicism.

I don’t think you will find that I have given an opinion on the substance of this thread or gone after “one person and thier Catholicism.” I think you would find I am just trying to find out if Joysong is willing to post under the same standards as she demands of other people.

 

[anamchara]

It’s easy to overcome if someone answers a direct question instead of ignoring.

It’s not really a discussion if one person asks and another ignores.

It’s all in how it was asked and that’s normally where problems arise in these types of forums. I have often ignored questions because I feel I’ve either answered them already and they didn’t like my answer or the people asking me are not being very charitable and I’d rather ignore them then let my anger get the best of me and my words become like poison and I get the boot

We need to try and I know it’s hard at times to always assume goodwill when we are asking and answering people in forums. Questions asked in threads are often asked in a way that implies the other person is a bad Catholic or part of this “vac-II problem” .

No Catholic ever wants to be accused of possibly being part of devaluing our Lord. It is a terrible sting to to be accused of this and very uncharitable. I would say if your not sure about someones motivation or personal opinions then maybe a private message to get clarification before putting them on “trial”

 

[Joysong]

It’s easy to overcome if someone answers a direct question instead of ignoring

I’m reminded of the taunting, “If you are really the Son of God, come down from that cross and save yourself.” Asking for proof, I believe, but in a mocking manner. In that case, scripture tells us there was no response. It was ignored, just as I will do when the question is not sincere.

 

[Karin]

I’m reminded of the taunting, “If you are really the Son of God, come down from that cross and save yourself.” Asking for proof, I believe, but in a mocking manner. In that case, scripture tells us there was no response. It was ignored, just as I will do when the question is not sincere.

you know what joysong…my question was sincere…you perhaps did not like how it was worded…fine, that is your right…but if you are going to make accusations or assumptions just remember folks may call you out on them…so what are you going to do ignore everyone that is not dripping sweetness when they ask you a question?

 

[anamchara]

“To disregard someone’s feelings is to disregard a person’s life” a dear friend of mine once said

Every bit of proof offered is dismissed with a wave of the hand, just like this.

I agree with your friend and I’m sorry you feel people are just using the old wave of a hand thing. I don’t think I’d like that either if I felt strongly about something. I know you love our Lord and your intentions are good as you want to protect what is sacred. This is commendable my friend but we may not always agree and this doesn’t make me a lesser Catholic then you nor does it make me a better one.

 

[anamchara]

you know what joysong…my question was sincere…you perhaps did not like how it was worded…fine, that is your right…but if you are going to make accusations or assumptions just remember folks may call you out on them…so what are you going to do ignore everyone that is not dripping sweetness when they ask you a question?

I think dripping sweetness is a bit unfair Karin, we need a middle ground…just a thought

and now I really need to get some work done around here so if anyone asked me any questions, sorry I have way too animals and kids to attend to! AND a house that needs my attention

 

[Joysong]

sDear Snortluster,

You would need to give statistics that prove at least half of these thousands of churches use innovations, to make that assumption.

All I am trying to find out is if poster B is willing to apply the same standards to her opinions as she demands of others. If she is not willing to follow her own rules, then why should I give any extra credence to her opinion over poster A?

You missed the whole point. Poster B is not making the assumption. Poster A is applying local statistics to be a general nation-wide norm, without any nation-wide poll of statistics. It is misleading and prompts one quite naturally to a request for a source other than a few websites.

Wouldn’t you agree that the Church would require a little more than a website’s take on things from some dissatisfied people before addressing them? Or even a few articles they read? Etc.

Bottom line, it is easy to make assumptions and state them as factual norms, but not so easy to back them up.

 

[Karin]

I think dripping sweetness is a bit unfair Karin, we need a middle ground…just a thought

it would seem that it is not unfair…it would seem that some posters prefer that drippy stuff