Latin Mass/Novus Ordo

[Joysong]

Karin,

Historically, your previous posts to me in general have been … well, I won’t go there, for you know them already.

I would have been open to responding had you not used the word little:
Have you ever left your little parish and ventured …
Coupled with:
“I have lived in five states.” As though I never stepped foot outside of my “little” parish.

The connotation is quite negative. Calling it a request for drippy stuff is also negative. Maybe courtesy would be a better choice of words.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I’m just curious on how the laity in your parish refer to the Mass. In my old NO parish most of the laity usually just referred to it in the short form as “the Mass.” By the time I left, a very sizable minority had started to refer to it as Sunday Services. As I remember it, our priest referred to it as “the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”, but the bulletin referred to it as the “Celebration of the Mass” or the “Gathering of our Catholic Community”. Is this your experience?

No, actually, people either say “going to Mass” or “going to church.” I was speaking of our former and some of our current priests.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I have had this curious “well, I won’t understand what’s going on” response of the vernacular mass crowd when I bring up the Latin liturgy.

I must admit this always leaves me scratching my head in amazement.

Not understand what’s going on? Haven’t these people ever heard of translations? In the pre-1962 missal there is latin on one page and english on the other. It took me a few minutes to find my place when I first started attending the TLM and then after that it became easy. I even found myself starting to pick up the Latin as time went by. In fact, because it took more effort on my part I found myself being more involved with what was going on than I ever did with the vernacular mass.

A different thread, but why insist on the Latin? I know all the arguments of why, but why NOT have it in the language of the people? What precisely is lost if the people understand the Mass without consulting a translation?

 

[Karin]

Karin,

Historically, your previous posts to me in general have been … well, I won’t go there, for you know them already.

I would have been open to responding had you not used the word little:
Have you ever left your little parish and ventured …
Coupled with:
“I have lived in five states.” As though I never stepped foot outside of my “little” parish.

The connotation is quite negative. Calling it a request for drippy stuff is also negative. Maybe courtesy would be a better choice of words.

Joysong…
I have responded to maybe 5-10 of your posts on various threads…the last one referenced your nose picking and not taking Communion…so I really have no idea what you are talking about…I have been chartiable but blunt in my posts to you, especially the one mentioned above.
Perhaps if it is the connotation you have issues with then you should be careful how you post…as I take my que from that, in regards to how to reply!

 

[SnorterLuster]

sDear Snortluster,

Bottom line, it is easy to make assumptions and state them as factual norms, but not so easy to back them up.

But I still maintain and believe it is not the norm for most parishes.

So your assertion that most parishes do not have innovations in their Mass is strictly your opinion and not based on any facts? As you say “it is easy to make assumptions and state them as factual norms, but not so easy to back them up.”

And this is a true and sincere statement?

quote by Joysong: Am I to believe that if I answer one way or another, my words will have merit? Well then, yes, absolutely. I speak from experience.

A very serious question for you Joysong: How am I to give your statements any credibility when you do as all other posters do?

I give my opinion based on my experience using what judgment I have, based on my readings, experiences, prejudices and personality.

If I tell you that most of the churches in Oklahoma have innovative Masses and that is why I attend a TLM parish exclusively, understand that I have not been to all the churches in Oklahoma, but I still have an opinion.

That opinion is based on not only my personal experiences, but also in talking to people about their parish, going to funerals and weddings all over the state. Talking to relatives about what is going on in their parish, reading the Sooner Catholic, and seeing politicians support abortion and receive Holy Communion. I am distilling the experiences I have witnessed such as a confirmation class coming to my TLM parish and see most of the kids in awe of a truly reverent liturgy. So much awe that one girl started sobbing at the Consecration and refused to go to Communion with her class telling them she never realized how unworthy she was to receive until that moment. I see priests from various parishes marching in gay pride parades. I read articles in the daily paper which a parish priest says abortion may be ok in certain circumstances. It goes on and on.

So I give all the readers of these posts my opinion and they can give it what worth they want. They can ask me about why I came to that conclusion and I can fill out some of my opinion. But if I am asked for proof, I cannot provide it. Believe it or not, I don’t keep a journal with my every experience written down. I don’t cut out articles or underline passages in my books. Instead, I fit what I learn into the mosiac that is my brain. I, like most people on these boards will give you an opinion. If you disagree with it, I’m fine with that. If you demand that I prove my opinion has some statistical basis, I just don’t have it.

 

[SnorterLuster]

A different thread, but why insist on the Latin? I know all the arguments of why, but why NOT have it in the language of the people? What precisely is lost if the people understand the Mass without consulting a translation?

I’m not Titus, but I would like to take a stab at this. If the translation is good, I don’t think much is lost having the Mass in the language of the people, but there is some loss. We had a modified TLM in English in the mid 60s. I was still in high school and starting college but I felt then, and I feel now, that the Mass in Latin has a certain mystery that complements the mystery of the Sacrifice. I am a very conservative person by nature and I see that the Jews and the Muslims have preserved their ancient languages, the Eastern Catholics likewise (in my understanding) have frozen their venacular language to the point it is more like an ancient language rather than a modern vernacular. So I ask myself, what do they know that we should know. I haven’t been able to answer that question, but I figure we ought to go real slow before we completely do away with the Traditional Mass. I think most religions recognize that there is something to be said for retaining their ancient language.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Snorterluster,

Much of what are referred to as “innovations” and “abuses” are in reality personal displeasure in not having one’s way in a form of worship. Many of these are perfectly licit, but seen as abominations by some, or heretical by others. I trust the Pope does not absorb his information from sites run by Marian Horwat, et al. One Catholic website has banned this link from its forum.

The list of so-called aberrations is indeed long and you have read them all here ad nauseum, so I need not reprint them. Some things I agree with the posters who have lawlful complaints. For the others, I don’t know how to help them toward unity, for in any organization consisting of human beings, you will find dissent due to likes and dislikes.

My heart goes out to pastors who follow the rubrics, yet have to juggle the complaints from his woeful children who haven’t a clue about licit and illicit. Who does the pastor please, for twenty different people can have equally as many opinions — even in the TLM liturgies!! Obedience is the call, IMO. We know from scripture that high-ranking Israelites were slain in the dessert for their grumbling, particularly those who complained against Moses, the Lord’s anointed! I believe leprosy was inflicted upon them. Did you ever read about Core and his followers?

You may have seen my support for the upcoming motu proprio regarding the TLM. I only wish that these people were as respectful toward those who have no problem with the Pauline Mass. As for proof? I’m not sure either side is able to give solid statistics. For that very reason, one should refrain from classifying all NO liturgies as full of innovation and keep tongue in cheek.

Nor can I prove the opposite, as you suggested, other than my personal experience at many different churches without a single problem, and the more probable assumption that thousands of parishes nation-wide are not ALL bad. After 40 years of existence, the Bishops would have heard about them by now and taken appropriate action. But then again, it is not a secret that some traditionists do not respect the Bishop, thinking they themselves are wiser, and that the Bishop keeps his head in the sand. Now some may judge my acceptance of the NO as ignorance and keeping my head in the sand as well. I assure you I am informed, but I can do nothing about others’ opinions.

The scandal has caused this disrespect for the clergy to a large degree, but it is not typical of all holy men that serve as our Shepherds. Surely you have heard Father Corapi say how devasted he is, for he is unfortunately lumped in with those who gave the clergy a bad name. And the same with the majority of innocent clergy.

 

[Rabbititus]

A different thread, but why insist on the Latin? I know all the arguments of why, but why NOT have it in the language of the people? What precisely is lost if the people understand the Mass without consulting a translation?

I’m not Titus either, and I myself have no real problem with vernacular masses. However, one arguement against it I can think of is that it has produced our current situation where one never hears Latin at an average parish, and few people are taught even basic Latin phrases or prayers. I kind of wonder if an expanded use of the vernacular would have ever been approved by Vatican II had they known it would mean Latin would be abolished in most churches. I don’t they intended all-vernacular churches that don’t have even a single Mass with Latin parts.

I’m of the opinion that vernacular is a wonderful, but very much abused, asset. I also think Latin should be a normal part of any practicing Catholic’s church-going experience and religious education - regardless of what liturgy or language they prefer.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking Home,

With reference to your link, titled Redemptionis Sacramentum* On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist, * this is exactly what I was referring to a couple of posts ago where I stated:

Most parishes, I trust, were notified and have already made these corrections per this document and also the GIRM. We had representatives come to our diocese and give special instruction regarding new implementations on the liturgy. Many who left during the period allotted for experimentation are not aware that the clamps have been put on.

It is praiseworthy that the hierarchy has taken this corrective action, but it is still unknown to some who think they still exist in the wide proportion of those days. Thanks for posting it. I certainly don’t doubt there were some scandalous actions taking place, and said so in my posts. But I still maintain and believe it is not the norm for most parishes.

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If you believe that----there is some swamp land—with your name on it.

 

[netmilsmom]

I agree with your friend and I’m sorry you feel people are just using the old wave of a hand thing. I don’t think I’d like that either if I felt strongly about something. I know you love our Lord and your intentions are good as you want to protect what is sacred. This is commendable my friend but we may not always agree and this doesn’t make me a lesser Catholic then you nor does it make me a better one.

I don’t think of anyone as a lesser Catholic, but you have stated before that some of us are backward Catholics. And I know, you said you would be upset by the statement as well however, you have yet to retract it.
Now, when statements are made like this…

anamchara:

And they have proved thier side with what? Utube? a very out of date which has been passed around news clipping dated 1984. How is there word much better? Oh ya one of them said they’d been to several parishes before finding one, so what…that still doesn’t make thier case. This is a huge country my goodness!

It sadly looks like a wave of the hand.
Someone else basically says that RS cured all ills and therefore our liturgy is just what it is suppose to be.

To someone hurting about having a liturgy which takes liberties with the rubics, what is it saying?

 

[Joysong]

Hi Anamchara,

Ahh ok, the old V-II issue…I agree with you the pendulum did seem to swing too far one way but this doesn’t mean because some of use altar girls at our Mass or our Mass is not like “EWTN Holy Mass” (another phrase I’m sick of read ) we are “innovators” I guess after being on this forum I see innovators as something horribly negative and that if you are one your pairsh has no reverence and probably has Barney Masses. The implications are there and it’s hard not to read it this way.

Yes, here is a perfect example of licitness, yet being immensely disliked, and promoted as innovation. The list goes on and on. So this is where the Churches get their bad rap, yet they are not abusing a thing except the ego and preferences of those who want it otherwise. We groan in spirit awaiting their hearts to change, but I doubt they will while they are in the body. Maybe you are going to be one of the persecuted ones now for stating you are a N.O. person.

 

[netmilsmom]

After 40 years of existence, the Bishops would have heard about them by now and taken appropriate action. But then again, it is not a secret that some traditionists do not respect the Bishop, thinking they themselves are wiser, and that the Bishop keeps his head in the sand. .

Bishops are human beings like you and me.
When a Bishop openly defies the Vatican, I’ll side with the Holy Mother Church, thanks so much.

 

[netmilsmom]

Yes, here is a perfect example of licitness, yet being immensely disliked, and promoted as innovation. The list goes on and on. So this is where the Churches get their bad rap, yet they are not abusing a thing except the ego and preferences of those who want it otherwise. We groan in spirit awaiting their hearts to change, but I doubt they will while they are in the body. Maybe you are going to be one of the persecuted ones now for stating you are a N.O. person.

Wow. I’m an NO person too.
I’ve attended one, count it one TLM in my life.

But I don’t believe that an invovative Holy Mass is all that should be offered in a Diocese and everyone should be accomodated.

Guess I can hold the Martyr badge too.

 

[Joysong]

If you believe that----there is some swamp land—with your name on it.

Lovely expression full of charity, W.H. Can you do no worse?

It shocks me that you would be in the know as to whether or not they have implemented the changes. Do you frequent the N.O.'s in your area? How many can you personally count that have not complied? If a only a local handful, can you state with certainty that all the US churches are not in compliance? I doubt it, and again, if you believe this, the burden of proof is on you. I invite you to Pennsylvania and a few other states, and I’ll take you to more than you can show me.

 

[netmilsmom]

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If you believe that----there is some swamp land—with your name on it.

Amen!

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

As I said in another thread, it is these types of comments that give the TLM group a bad name:

As one who expresses his love for the Mass, it sends the reader a doubletake to read that a form of the holy mass is poohed as “nonsense.” If you wish to gain converts, you will gain them by your love [also joy which is noticably missing in your posts], not by ridiculing another liturgical rite.

Im not trying to convert people to the Latin Mass…I let the Mass itself do the converting.

And the Novus Ordo Nonsense comment does not mean the Novus Ordo is nonsense…but you and I both know that plenty of ‘nonsense’ does indeed happen within the boundaries of the Novus Ordo.

 

[netmilsmom]

Lovely expression full of charity, W.H. Can you do no worse?

It shocks me that you would be in the know as to whether or not they have implemented the changes. Do you frequent the N.O.'s in your area? How many can you personally count that have not complied? If a handful, can you state with certainty that all the US churches are not in compliance? I doubt it, and again, if you believe this, the burden of proof is on you. I invite you to Pennsylvania and I’ll take you to more than you can show me.

One does not have to step foot in a parish to hear from the parishioners what it is like. Do you have friends or family who live in different cities? I do. We talk.

 

[Walking_Home]

One does not have to step foot in a parish to hear from the parishioners what it is like. Do you have friends or family who live in different cities? I do. We talk.

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Do you get the feeling–we are being played. Any one --spending any time on this forums—would quickly realize the condition of our Mass and to what extent.

 

[netmilsmom]

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Do you get the feeling–we are being played. Any one --spending any time on this forums—would quickly realize the condition of our Mass and to what extent.

Hmmmm.
Anyone who spends time on this forum, on another forum with Catholics, or has friends and family who are Catholic has the same common knowledge as we do.

One is either happy with a community centered mass or is miserable with them. It’s funny how when I talk to people they fall into the later group.

But some don’t believe that.

 

[Walking_Home]

Hmmmm.
Anyone who spends time on this forum, on another forum with Catholics, or has friends and family who are Catholic has the same common knowledge as we do.

One is either happy with a community centered mass or is miserable with them. It’s funny how when I talk to people they fall into the later group.

But some don’t believe that.

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It seems—it would not be to their advantage to admit it. To keep the status quo----- hide the truth–one way or another.