Latin Mass/Novus Ordo

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I don’t have a problem with someone being blunt but not when it’s uncharitable :tsktsk: and it usually is 😦

So on that note lets all hold hands and sing Kum-bah-yah my Lord Kum-Bah-Yah

🙂
 
anamchara said:
I don’t have a problem with someone being blunt but not when it’s uncharitable :tsktsk: and it usually is 😦
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is it unchartiable (outside of the happy-clappy) because you dont agree with it?
So on that note lets all hold hands and sing Kum-bah-yah my Lord Kum-Bah-Yah
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that is ok…you go ahead without me;)
 
Karin said:
is it unchartiable (outside of the happy-clappy) because you dont agree with it?
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Naw…I honestly don’t like demeaning words about others especially when they are attached to devaluing someones faith or the way their worship.

I have to finish dinner 😉
 
Joysong said:
It was just replayed again at post #119. I have seen the same hurtful words spoken to me publicly by this person as well. Any who espouse the vernacular N.O. are believed by her to be horizontally worshipping community catholics. It needs to stop, as it is against forum rules. I support your feelings, Anamchara.
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My parish has nothing but a veracular NO except on Wednesday mornings when we have a Latin NO.
Perhaps you are thinking of someone else Joysong.
 
Joysong said:
Unbiased, Karin? Members of the toe-tags? Hmmm.

To spare you some naivete, for starters, N.m.m.'s thoughts are clear and well documented:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1766058
Wow! Check this out… This is exactly what some of the innovators talk about. How they love the “community” aspect of all of it. They don’t like “Happy Catholic” how about Pelagianism?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1736537
I was at at the Happy Catholic Community Parish.

Shall I post more?
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I think that that’s a great idea!!!
I really love to see my work in print.

I especially like the one about Pelagianism.

Would you prefer that I use that term?
 
At the sake of not being politically correct…I would say it is not insulting whenever you bring it to someones attention that they are doing wrong…We never suggested that these people do not love Christ, however when someone distributing the Most Blessed Sacrament is wearing a Devil outfit…that is downright wrong and blasphemous and I frankly don’t give a **** if you claim it is licit just because you can’t find a specific rule in the GIRM or a directive from the Bishops which outlaw this specific behavior during Mass. It is not insulting to do that…what is insulting to have Catholics seeking a reverant atmosphere to have to put up with that type of disrespectful behavior towards our Lord. Furthermore…it is even more insulting to try and defend that type of behavior by trying to shift the blame on us.
Joysong said:
Issues? Only when they are inflicted on others in the vernacular N.O. as being horizontal worshippers, suggesting they do not love Christ.

Remember, these are against forum rules to insult others’ manner of worship.
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dumspirospero said:
At the sake of not being politically correct…I would say it is not insulting whenever you bring it to someones attention that they are doing wrong…We never suggested that these people do not love Christ, however when someone distributing the Most Blessed Sacrament is wearing a Devil outfit…that is downright wrong and blasphemous and I frankly don’t give a **** if you claim it is licit just because you can’t find a specific rule in the GIRM or a directive from the Bishops which outlaw this specific behavior during Mass. It is not insulting to do that…what is insulting to have Catholics seeking a reverant atmosphere to have to put up with that type of disrespectful behavior towards our Lord. Furthermore…it is even more insulting to try and defend that type of behavior by trying to shift the blame on us.
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And they don’t even see it.
 
The following pictures may possibly be of valid and licit masses…but that sure doesn’t mean in any way they are acceptable, reverant, respectable, and representative of mainstream Catholicism:








This is just sick in my mind…my favorite was the Pro-Abortion Mass where a priest gave Bill Clinton Communion…when do these abuses stop…Now I will compare that to pictures from a Tridentine (pre-Conciliar Latin) Mass in the next post.
 
dumspirospero said:
The following pictures may possibly be of valid and licit masses…but that sure doesn’t mean in any way they are acceptable, reverant, respectable, and representative of mainstream Catholicism:

http://www.larosafamily.com/la rosa family004004.jpg

This is just sick in my mind…my favorite was the Pro-Abortion Mass where a priest gave Bill Clinton Communion…when do these abuses stop…Now I will compare that to pictures from a Tridentine (pre-Conciliar Latin) Mass in the next post.
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YIKES!!!
 
I posted pics of some abuses that take place during the new Mass…I know this is not indicative of most Novus Ordo masses…however, there are those on this thread defending that style of Novus Ordo…now lets look at pictures from a Latin mass:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_Rtrbr51FWCcAADyjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12teses6l/EXP=1168048475/**http%3A//www.pittsburghlatinmass.org/sblm/images/cathedral/Chalice-elev.jpg
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RttwsJ1F.HsBj4OjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=11q17atvb/EXP=1168048624/**http%3A//www.cmri.org/pictures/mass3.jpg
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RqqDsJ1FhEoA56OjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=13i66pt1g/EXP=1168048643/**http%3A//www.emediawire.com/prfiles/2005/04/25/233410/RatzingerafterMassFSSPEaster1990SMALL1.BMP
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RqqhsJ1F.EgANZCjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=126fggka6/EXP=1168048673/**http%3A//gbjann.com/stjosaphat/images/OffertoryT.jpg
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_Rq.0sJ1F3X0AF.ejzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12110qaj4/EXP=1168048692/**http%3A//www.cantius.org/Graphics/PPio-Mass.jpg

You decide…I know which one I believe has a more respectful and God fearing group of people attending.
 
dumspirospero said:
At the sake of not being politically correct…I would say it is not insulting whenever you bring it to someones attention that they are doing wrong…We never suggested that these people do not love Christ, however when someone distributing the Most Blessed Sacrament is wearing a Devil outfit…that is downright wrong and blasphemous and I frankly don’t give a **** if you claim it is licit just because you can’t find a specific rule in the GIRM or a directive from the Bishops which outlaw this specific behavior during Mass. It is not insulting to do that…what is insulting to have Catholics seeking a reverant atmosphere to have to put up with that type of disrespectful behavior towards our Lord. Furthermore…it is even more insulting to try and defend that type of behavior by trying to shift the blame on us.
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That is for certain. Some are quite expert at it.
 
and people are actually ok with these things? this to some folks is what a mass should look like…is this is more of a mokery(sp?) than anything else…to actually call these things masses is a sin, just MHO!
dumspirospero said:
The following pictures may possibly be of valid and licit masses…but that sure doesn’t mean in any way they are acceptable, reverant, respectable, and representative of mainstream Catholicism:
http://www.larosafamily.com/la rosa family004021.jpg
http://www.larosafamily.com/la rosa family004020.jpg
http://www.larosafamily.com/la rosa family004019.jpg
http://www.larosafamily.com/la rosa family004018.jpg
http://www.larosafamily.com/la rosa family004017.jpg
http://www.larosafamily.com/la rosa family004014.jpg
http://www.larosafamily.com/la rosa family004004.jpg

This is just sick in my mind…my favorite was the Pro-Abortion Mass where a priest gave Bill Clinton Communion…when do these abuses stop…Now I will compare that to pictures from a Tridentine (pre-Conciliar Latin) Mass in the next post.
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And where did it all start?
In the “Happy Cath…” (no wait, that’s offensive)
In the “Catholic Commu…” (no wait, I’m not suppose to say that)
In the “Pelagiani…” (oh that will really get me in hot water)
In the "Innova…(wait, the Vatican can use that but I can’t)

In the parishes that all of us should get used to or move to Detroit or Lincoln (and yes, I was told that on a thread).

Oy.
 
Granted…I must say that the pictures I posted were not indicative of every Novus Ordo Mass…however, they are representative of the types of behavior that certain people on this thread are in support of…now lets look at some pics of the Latin Mass shall we:

http://www.pittsburghlatinmass.org/sblm/images/cathedral/Host-elev.jpg
http://www.pittsburghlatinmass.org/sblm/images/cathedral/Chalice-elev.jpg
http://www.pittsburghlatinmass.org/sblm/images/cathedral/clergy.jpg
http://www.detroitlatinmass.org/jospht/pic31.jpg
http://www.detroitlatinmass.org/jospht/pic41.jpg
http://www.detroitlatinmass.org/jospht/pic21.jpg

Need I say more…which looks more reverant and respectful to you? Which looks for God Fearing?
 
My kids were looking at the other pictures and said, “WHAT"S THAT?!?”

As the TLM pictures openned, my nine year old said,
“Oh, that’s Beautiful!”

She’s yet to see a TLM, but she knows what’s holy.
 
Joysong said:
Karin,

If you are naive, read Netmil(name removed by moderator)'s former posts. She does not hide the fact that she believes these liturgies are happy Catholic community masses. It is demeaning and personally insulting to imply that one’s worship is horizontal, happy-clappy, etc. I did bow out of this thread, but Anamchara has been wonderfully charitable and deserves a little respect here.
.
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Hi,

I’ve been reading through this thread, and I hope you don’t mind me giving my opinion. I don’t think anyone here is trying to say that you are personally not as devout because you love the NO Mass. The issue at hand are the abuses and common misinterpretations of the NO Mass by bishops which have often presented to the faithful, a watered down version of the externals of the NO Liturgy. The miraculous reality of the what is happening during the Mass cannot be watered down, and neither can the devotion of those present. No one is questioning your personal level of worship or devotion.

All some of us are saying is that often we feel we are being deprived of the proper atmosphere of solemnity and reverence during the NO Mass due to abuses, and as a result of our weakness find ourselves unable to rise above these things to that deep state of prayer and humility we desire. We are often being robbed of the means for acheiving the proper disposition to receive the Lord, which means the Lord is being deprived of the level of reverence He deserves. It’s simply wrong that the TLM is not made equally available as a remedy for those of us who find things like festive, contemporary music and humorous homilies distracting. The mystical realities of the NO Mass and the TLM are both equally holy and valid. The externals of the NO Liturgy is still in its infancy which is why there are still some problems and there will undoubtably be some reforms. In the mean time, the Church should let everybody have the option for the TLM. There’s no reason to deprive anyone of it.
:tiphat:
 
SnorterLuster said:
I’m not Titus, but I would like to take a stab at this. If the translation is good, I don’t think much is lost having the Mass in the language of the people, but there is some loss. We had a modified TLM in English in the mid 60s. I was still in high school and starting college but I felt then, and I feel now, that the Mass in Latin has a certain mystery that complements the mystery of the Sacrifice. I am a very conservative person by nature and I see that the Jews and the Muslims have preserved their ancient languages, the Eastern Catholics likewise (in my understanding) have frozen their venacular language to the point it is more like an ancient language rather than a modern vernacular. So I ask myself, what do they know that we should know. I haven’t been able to answer that question, but I figure we ought to go real slow before we completely do away with the Traditional Mass. I think most religions recognize that there is something to be said for retaining their ancient language.
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The Eastern Catholic liturgy that I’ve attended was in the vernacular. I don’t know about the Orthodox. You mention good translations (the other poster asked, “Have these people heard of translations?”), yet we’re constantly told that any translation is going to corrupt the original meaning. That means the translation that you are following (never mind the actual offering of the Mass in the vernacular) WHILE the priest is speaking in Latin is corrupt or at least tends toward corruption. It follows, then, that God Alone is getting the real, uncorrupted meaning. I would submit that God is already aware of the “real” or “uncorrupted” meaning and that there is some benefit for the faithful in being able to understand, comprehend, process thought in, the language in which they are praying. I’ve never seen the logic (once again) in an English speaking priest standing before an English speaking congregation and addressing God (who surely understands all languages) in Latin while the English speaking congregation follows along in their missals a translation that is already either corrupt or tending toward corruption (by virtue of the fact that it’s a translation). That makes no logical sense whatsoever.

As for mystery, I think we can still have mystery that complements the Holy Sacrifice by simply avoiding the pedestrian or the trendy in speech (this can be seen in the Anglican Use Mass, with “thees” and “thy” and “thine”). No one is suggesting that the priest greet the people with “Sup, dawgs?” or that the deacon end the Gospel reading with “Word, fo’ shizzle!”

I’m not saying Latin isn’t important. It is, as important as Greek or Hebrew. But I take a “balance scale” view. Putting Latin on one side and the value of people understanding the Mass on the other, to me, at least, the scale comes down on the side of people understanding the mass.

Further, I believe that Moslems, at least, throughout the world, actually TEACH Arabic as a second language to be used in prayer, in order to actually ACCESS their religion, because of positive prohibitions against the translation of the Koran, etc. (I admit, I’m not that up on Islam). I think that’s bizarre: in order to practice your faith in God, you have to know a certain language?
 
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