Latin Mass Question

[Marcus_T]

In our small parish, our priest celebrates the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) a couple times a week. He also provides a Latin/English booklet so we can follow along (one side in Latin and the other side in English). In this booklet there are notations in the side margins and it notes that the Readings and Gospel are traditionally done in English. However, our priest does all the Readings in Latin which make it impossible to know what he is reading (the readings for the day are NOT included in the booklet). Yes, I know one could bring along a daily missal and follow along using that but not everyone has a daily missal. So, my question is. If your parish has the Traditional Latin Mass, does your priest do the readings in Latin or English?

 

[babochka]

In our small parish, our priest celebrates the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) a couple times a week. He also provides a Latin/English booklet so we can follow along (one side in Latin and the other side in English). In this booklet there are notations in the side margins and it notes that the Readings and Gospel are traditionally done in English. However, our priest does all the Readings in Latin which make it impossible to know what he is reading (the readings for the day are NOT included in the booklet). Yes, I know one could bring along a daily missal and follow along using that but not everyone has a daily missal. So, my question is. If your parish has the Traditional Latin Mass, does your priest do the readings in Latin or English?

At the Latin Masses that I’ve attended, the readings are done in Latin, but repeated in English by the priest just prior to the homily.

 

[Lost4words]

Why are masses still said in Latin? What benefits does it bring as when i attended one once i didn’t understand anything but it made me realise why it was changed in the 60’s.

 

[peter26]

Why are masses still said in Latin? What benefits does it bring as when i attended one once i didn’t understand anything but it made me realise why it was changed in the 60’s.

Why do people complain about the occasional Mass in Latin when 99% of Masses are in the vernacular and they can very easily go to one of these if they wish?

To answer the OP, repeating the readings in English either during or as part of the homily is customary but is not required.

Regardless, you are very fortunate to have a Latin Mass twice a week!

 

[L_Marshall]

It is an issue if you can’t understand the readings. A few solutions present themselves:

1. 
   *]Ask your priest to read the passages in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily.
   *]Buy a daily hand missal, so you’ll have the readings with you and can follow along.
   *]Ask your priest to do the readings in the Mass in the vernacular, as allowed by Pope Benedict XVI’s Letter on the Instruction of the Implementation of Summorum pontificum (par. 26).

 

[Marcus_T]

*]Ask your priest to do the readings in the Mass in the vernacular, as allowed by Pope Benedict XVI’s Letter on the Instruction of the Implementation of Summorum pontificum.

This was brought up by some members of the parish and he won’t do that. Now, in all fairness to the priest, when he first brought the Latin Mass to our parish, he did print out the readings in English on a piece of paper and anyone walking into the Church could pick one up on their way in and follow along that way. However, he stopped doing that after a few months and gave no explanation why. I should also point out that the Latin Masses he says are only on weekdays and Holy Days of Obligation and not on Sundays as there are only a handful of people at our daily Masses, typically, less than 20 people.

I should also like to point out that I have no problem with the Readings in Latin. I was only curious to see if other parishes do the Readings in Latin or English as I indicated in my previous post that in the margins of the Latin/English booklet, it says the Readings are typically done in English.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Why don’t you take it on yourself to print out the readings and pass them out?

 

[tdonlon]

I studies Latin through HS and college. I then taught classical Latin on the university level while I was a grad student. I understand and support our need for ritual and ceremonial beauty , but how are you praying if you don’t understand the words ? Listen to the thoughts expressed in the current liturgy. They’re majestic !

 

[Stat_Crux]

Why are masses still said in Latin? What benefits does it bring as when i attended one once i didn’t understand anything but it made me realise why it was changed in the 60’s.

I quite like the Latin Mass, and I’m a young convert with no prior experience of Latin before becoming Catholic. For me, I find it much more prayerful and reverential. I suppose it depends on what really speaks to you personally. Latin is part of our heritage as Catholics, so even if it’s not the main language at Mass it should still be preserved and used in the Church’s life by some means.

Agreed about the not understanding anything the first time. But it was exactly the same when I went to my first Mass in the vernacular. However, I quickly found out that 99% of those attending Latin Masses have Missals that show the Latin and the vernacular side by side, and after a few Sundays it’s easy to memorise all of the responses and read the prayers. Otherwise I’ve always found that the daily readings are read in the vernacular immediately after being read in Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

I studies Latin through HS and college. I then taught classical Latin on the university level while I was a grad student. I understand and support our need for ritual and ceremonial beauty , but how are you praying if you don’t understand the words ? Listen to the thoughts expressed in the current liturgy. They’re majestic !

The Latin Mass is more contemplative in its prayer. Most of it is submissa voce and it is indeed beautiful.

 

[Fuerza]

Why are masses still said in Latin? What benefits does it bring as when i attended one once i didn’t understand anything but it made me realise why it was changed in the 60’s.

Luckily not everyone feels that way. The Latin Mass is truly beautiful, and after a few Sundays is rather easy to follow even without a translation. The TLM that I often attend has easily 5 times the attendance of the OF at the same parish, and has become so popular that two more parishes in the area have started offering one regularly. The same was also true of the Latin OF that used to be offered in another parish until the priest retired. I would also like to point out that the changes in the 60s did not include the loss of Latin. The V2 documents, though allowing for greater use of the vernacular, specifically called for the retention of Latin in some parts of the Mass, and even called for the laity to learn to recite the Ordinary in Latin.

I’m not saying that you have to attend a TLM or Latin NO, but the fact that you didn’t understand it does not detract from its beauty in the eyes of many. Maybe one day you can give it another chance with an open mind. You might be surprised.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Why are masses still said in Latin? What benefits does it bring as when i attended one once i didn’t understand anything but it made me realise why it was changed in the 60’s.

Because it’s an ancient and beautiful option that some of us don’t even get to experience.

 

[ProVobis]

It is an issue if you can’t understand the readings. A few solutions present themselves:

1. 
   *]Ask your priest to read the passages in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily.
   *]Buy a daily hand missal, so you’ll have the readings with you and can follow along.
   *]Ask your priest to do the readings in the Mass in the vernacular, as allowed by Pope Benedict XVI’s Letter on the Instruction of the Implementation of Summorum pontificum (par. 26).

1. 
   I would say this. There is only one cycle of readings. Hopefully after attending after a couple of years you’ll pick up the gist of the epistle and gospel with the recognition of just a few words. Translations are never exact and there are so many of them. At the Latin Mass I attend I would say 50% use the Latin-Spanish missals and 50% use the Latin-English missals. We are all able to respond in Latin.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

i attended one once i didn’t understand anything but it made me realise why it was changed in the 60’s.

Maybe one day you can give it another chance with an open mind. You might be surprised.

Or one can be glad for the liturgical renewal that blossomed from the liturgical movement, as apparently is the case with Lost4words.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I would say this. There is only one cycle of readings. Hopefully after attending after a couple of years you’ll pick up the gist of the epistle and gospel with the recognition of just a few words. Translations are never exact and there are so many of them. At the Latin Mass I attend I would say 50% use the Latin-Spanish missals and 50% use the Latin-English missals. We are all able to respond in Latin.

The Scripture readings in the vetus ordo missal are translations…translations into Latin.

 

[Fuerza]

Or one can be glad for the liturgical renewal that blossomed from the liturgical movement, as apparently is the case with Lost4words.

Fr.,
He certainly is free to be glad, however he seems incredulous as to how others don’t necessarily feel the same way that he does and asked a question to that effect. I was simply pointing out that giving it another chance with an open mind might be of some benefit if he wishes to understand. That’s part of the purpose of participating in a discussion forum.

 

[twf]

Or one can be glad for the liturgical renewal that blossomed from the liturgical movement, as apparently is the case with Lost4words.

Of course the liturgical renewal doesn’t exclude Latin. At our cathedral, it is quite common for the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei to be sung in Latin - though only at more solemn Masses and rarely on a weekday.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Of course the liturgical renewal doesn’t exclude Latin. At our cathedral, it is quite common for the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei to be sung in Latin - though only at more solemn Masses and rarely on a weekday.

No it does not exclude Latin. But the move toward the vernacular was very much part of the liturgical movement, to allow full, conscious and active participation, that came to fruition in and through the Council.

As the Council Fathers decreed in Sacrosanctum Concilium

*But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.*
And the Council Fathers, who populated the competent territorial ecclesiastical authorities, that is to say the Conferences of Bishops, continued to extend the vernacular language’s use in light of the great success. Frequently may be to great advantage turned out to be a tremendous understatement.

 

[twf]

No it does not exclude Latin. But the move toward the vernacular was very much part of the liturgical movement, to allow full, conscious and active participation, that came to fruition in and through the Council.

As the Council Fathers decreed in Sacrosanctum Concilium

*But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.*
And the Council Fathers, who populated the competent territorial ecclesiastical authorities, that is to say the Conferences of Bishops, continued to extend the vernacular language’s use in light of the great success. Frequently may be to great advantage turned out to be a tremendous understatement.

Interestingly, I find that in certain scenarios the faithful are still quite attached to Latin. For example, I have yet to experience an exposition / benediction where the congregation elected to sing O Salutaris Hostia or Tantum Ergo in English, despite the fact that Latin and English are printed side by side in most hymnals I’ve seen. I don’t know if this is regional. I am personally quite fond of singing O Sanctissima, particularly on Marian feasts, but otherwise gravitate towards English hymns…preferring for example “Hail Holy Queen” to “Salve Regina”. I can’t tell you why.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Or one can be glad for the liturgical renewal that blossomed from the liturgical movement, as apparently is the case with Lost4words.

Or one could be glad for both, the ‘liturgical renewal’ of the OF, and the liturgical ‘availability’ of the EF (well, at least for those for whom it IS available.)

I personally have absolutely no problem with people expressing a preference for one or the other, even if their preference does not ‘jibe’ with my preference.

For those who find the beauty of hearing words ‘that they understand in their vernacular’ making them full and active participants that way, great. More power to them. I’m sure it is perfectly understandable and logical. And of course the converse, that they would not understand in 'another language" (be it Latin, or Spanish, German, Swahili, etc) is not a denigration of those who do understand those languages and find them beautiful as well).

For those who find the beauty of hearing words that they can understand (either because they understand Latin, or Spanish, etc., or have the translations into their own vernacular) and who find that they fully and actively participate in Mass that is more contemplative, more power to them. I would hope we can understand that; it is likewise logical. And of course the converse, that there are those who prefer a less contemplative liturgy, is not a denigration of those who prefer such.

It’s when we move from, “This is my preference, and because I find it suits me and gives me such great benefit, I not only feel it is preferable to the ‘other liturgy’, but that the other liturgy is not just less good, but actually bad, should be permanently retired, is only chosen by those who are elitist, rigid, bent on bringing back the Inquisition, narrow-minded, etc.”–or to be fair, that ‘the other liturgy’ is not just less good, but invalid, bad, is only chosen by the modernists and that they have broken from the Faith. . .etc. ". that things become a problem.

Now those positions**** would be ones that we should not hold ourselves, or assume that others hold (unless of course they actually say they do).

It is far more likely that the majority of those who prefer the OF may not exactly understand why others prefer the EF, but they are perfectly willing to accept, ‘different strokes for different folks’; and the same with those who prefer the EF, the majority of whom likewise may not exactly understand why others prefer the OF but again are perfectly willing to accept 'different strokes for different folks.

Unfortunately it is the few extremists in both camps who muddy the waters and make it difficult or uncomfortable for everybody else.

Happy New Year!