Latin Mass vs New Mass

[Dr.Bombay]

mosher:

I only thought that it was the Irish that didn’t let the truth get in the way of a good story.

In anycase since you guys are in the process of renovating a new church you may want to contact the Society of St. John Cantious to see if they have in their store house of goodies anything that you guys can use. They store a lot of good traditional art from Monstrances to Stained Glass Windows for this very reson. They are housed at St. John Cantius Parish in Chicago and their website is:

www.cantius.org

Thanks for the website. I will pass it along to the powers-that-be. I’m still baffled as to how they’re going to get a high altar inside the church. The ones I’ve seen are made of granite or marble and would take a crane to move, or so it seems to me. Maybe they can be disassembled in pieces? Fortunately, wiser minds than mine are grappling with that problem.

 

[mosher]

Dr. Bombay:

Thanks for the website. I will pass it along to the powers-that-be. I’m still baffled as to how they’re going to get a high altar inside the church. The ones I’ve seen are made of granite or marble and would take a crane to move, or so it seems to me. Maybe they can be disassembled in pieces? Fortunately, wiser minds than mine are grappling with that problem.

That is exactly how it is done. It is very interesting to watch a rerados go up.

 

[johnnyjoe]

Scotty PGH:

That’s actually a pretty good analogy, in my opinion.

Ah…more arrogance. A hallmark of the Trad mindset.

Say, do ya think that the “Jesus” the Holy Father made present when he celebrated the “Novus Ordo” was a Big Mac Jesus, or a Fine French Meal Jesus?

Do ya think the TLM produces a “better” Jesus???

 

[mosher]

johnnyjoe:

Ah…more arrogance. A hallmark of the Trad mindset.

Say, do ya think that the “Jesus” the Holy Father made present when he celebrated the “Novus Ordo” was a Big Mac Jesus, or a Fine French Meal Jesus?

Do ya think the TLM produces a “better” Jesus???

I don’t think that is the point. The point is that the liturgical form of the Novus Ordo has not had the time to develop into something as well put together as the Tridentine Liturgy. Very few argue the validity of the Novus Ordo anymore.

 

[pnewton]

Then maybe the analogy is just a bad, circular begging of the question, anyway. You know the funny thing is I know a lot of people who like hamburgers but almost no one the likes French food, anyway.

 

[moosears]

I do not see that preferring one liturgy over the other as divisive at all. We are all following our consciences in this matter. We all (here I mean those on this site who are debating this point) want to be with our Lord Jesus Christ here on earth and most especially in the next life. The divisions between us are natural to human nature and have been exsacerbated by the abuses of both rites. I do not believe that we will be judged for attending the this or that Mass so long as we follow our good consciences.
God wants us to follow the spirit of the law not the letter. I now have been somewhat a part of both parties here having converted from protestant to Catholic, catechized by the sede vacantists. Yes there sometimes seems to be quite a bit of arrogance and elitism among the “Traditionalists” but I have also seen it from the Novus Ordo faithful too. It seems that God has allowed us to be divided to this degree as some sort of punishment or to wake us all up. There needs to be less contention and more understanding. Less hatred and more love. Why should we be so polarized on this matter instead of working together to come to a prayerful solution. Many will lose the Faith because of this. I almost did. If the Novus Ordo keeps you grounded in the Faith then stick with it. If the Tridentine keeps you grounded then stick with it. But we must not sway in matters of Faith and morals that have been defined dogmatically.

If God were always the only object of our desire, we should not be easily disturbedat our own opinions being resisted.

From the Imitation of Christ

 

[Wolseley]

johnnyjoe:

Say, do ya think that the “Jesus” the Holy Father made present when he celebrated the “Novus Ordo” was a Big Mac Jesus, or a Fine French Meal Jesus?

A better analogy would be to ask whether, given the choice, you preferred to eat your meal in the dining room of the Ritz-Carleton, or in Greasy Joe’s Discount Bar & Grill.

Do ya think the TLM produces a “better” Jesus???

No. Jesus is always the same. The TLM simply produces a better, more reverent, and more worshipful atmosphere to encounter Him in.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

johnnyjoe:

Ah…more arrogance. A hallmark of the Trad mindset.

Say, do ya think that the “Jesus” the Holy Father made present when he celebrated the “Novus Ordo” was a Big Mac Jesus, or a Fine French Meal Jesus?

Do ya think the TLM produces a “better” Jesus???

Ahhh an ad hominem attack: the trademark of an oaf whose argument cannot succeed on its own.

 

[AJV]

If anyone would like to see pictures of Tridentine ritual par excellence click here and here. The parish is St.Clement’s,Philadelphia, an anglo-catholic parish in the Episcopal Diocese of Pennsylvannia. The most beautiful pictures of a mass(albeit invalid) that I’ve seen to date.

 

[Iohannes]

It isn’t the question of if one “produces a better Jesus”. It is a question of how the people treat Our Lord in the Most Holy Sacrament.

The Novus Ordo allows too many rooms for options and has many open spots for abuse and accidentals.

A priest can say the Words of Insitution with all the prereqs in a coffe shop table and that would be a valid Mass, it would be the same Lord in the TLM and NO, but the Mass would be gravely illicit and probally offend God.

I know there are abuses in the TLM, for example, people recieving Communion-in-hand, lay people doing the reading, Communion both species, lighting the wrong amount candles, saying “Corpus Domini…” over three people. Those are liturgical abuses in the TLM.

The abuses of the TLM is no where compared to the abuses in the Novus Ordo. Funny thing is that what is considered abuses in the TLM are often not an abuse in the Novus Ordo.

I will say that there was one positive element of the indult, it forbade the mixing of rites.

 

[mosher]

pnewton:

Then maybe the analogy is just a bad, circular begging of the question, anyway. You know the funny thing is I know a lot of people who like hamburgers but almost no one the likes French food, anyway.

I generally don’t like anything French as a rule.

 

[Iohannes]

mosher:

I generally don’t like anything French as a rule.

A lot of hatred for France is actually due to Anticatholicism. Do not forget that France was once the eldest daughter of the Church.

St. Joan of Arc, St. Therese of Liesieiux, St. Bernadette, St. Jean Marie Vianney, St. Vincent de Paul, King St. Louis IX, St. Louis de Montfort, North American Jesuits Martyrs are all French.

St. Joan of Arc, ora pro nobis
St. Therese of Liesieiux, ora pro nobis
St. Bernadette, ora pro nobis
St. Jean Marie Vianney, ora pro nobis
North American Jesuits Martyrs, orate pro nobis
King St. Louis IX, ora pro nobis
St. Louis de Montfort, ora pro nobis
St. Vincent de Paul, ora pro nobis
Ven. Jaricot, ora pro nobis

 

[mosher]

Yes but don’t forget the old saying in refering to France “The eldist daughter is also the most disobedient.”

 

[bear06]

Iohannes:

It isn’t the question of if one “produces a better Jesus”. It is a question of how the people treat Our Lord in the Most Holy Sacrament.

The Novus Ordo allows too many rooms for options and has many open spots for abuse and accidentals.

A priest can say the Words of Insitution with all the prereqs in a coffe shop table and that would be a valid Mass, it would be the same Lord in the TLM and NO, but the Mass would be gravely illicit and probally offend God.

I know there are abuses in the TLM, for example, people recieving Communion-in-hand, lay people doing the reading, Communion both species, lighting the wrong amount candles, saying “Corpus Domini…” over three people. Those are liturgical abuses in the TLM.

The abuses of the TLM is no where compared to the abuses in the Novus Ordo. Funny thing is that what is considered abuses in the TLM are often not an abuse in the Novus Ordo.

I will say that there was one positive element of the indult, it forbade the mixing of rites.

How about you list the abuses in the “Novus Ordo” and we can see whether or not they can be applied to the Tridentine as well.? You can apply just about any abuse to the Tridentine as the “Novus Ordo”.

I agree that they happen more at the “Novus Ordo” but that doesn’t mean I’m striving for all of the Church to go back to the Tridentine, it means I’d like the Church to clean up, educate, etc. those who say the “Novus Ordo”. I think if you all went to the “Novus Ordo” at the parish I was married with, few would have any problems with it. It’s not the Mass, it’s the people in charge of saying it.

 

[bear06]

mosher:

Yes but don’t forget the old saying in refering to France “The eldist daughter is also the most disobedient.”

That is so true. It’s staggering how many schisms have come from the French!

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I must say that I find all the accusations of infidelity or subversion patently ridiculous. One can prefer one rite over another without denigrating either. Yes, there are those out there who would use such things only as polemical vehicles, but to try to shut down discussion by assuming the OP has some diabolical scheme to undercut the authority of the Magisterium is uncharitable at best.

 

[chb03c]

**Here is a quote from Justine Martyr (early 2nd century Christian Apologist) from his “First Apology.”
**

**

CHAPTER LXVII

– WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRISTIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
**

Sounds surprisingly similar to the way the current mass is.

 

[mosher]

bear06:

How about you list the abuses in the “Novus Ordo” and we can see whether or not they can be applied to the Tridentine as well.? You can apply just about any abuse to the Tridentine as the “Novus Ordo”.

I agree that they happen more at the “Novus Ordo” but that doesn’t mean I’m striving for all of the Church to go back to the Tridentine, it means I’d like the Church to clean up, educate, etc. those who say the “Novus Ordo”. I think if you all went to the “Novus Ordo” at the parish I was married with, few would have any problems with it. It’s not the Mass, it’s the people in charge of saying it.

bear06 I believe that you are missing the point that he is trying to make. Your operative word is “applied” and indeed you can apply all the currect abuses to the Tridentine Liturgy. However, the point that is trying to be made, I believe, is that such grave abuses as are found today are not found in the history of the Tridentine Liturgy by and large. I would submit that if you look at the frustrations of Pius XII over abuses of that era and what are the abuses done today there is a stark difference. Again, my deeper assertion is that there is a tacit, unspoken schisim that is at the root of the most grevious abuses today.

 

[pnewton]

Wolseley:

A better analogy would be to ask whether, given the choice, you preferred to eat your meal in the dining room of the Ritz-Carleton, or in Greasy Joe’s Discount Bar & Grill.

A much better analogy, but it still begs teh question over which is the Ritz and which is Joe’s.

 

[bear06]

mosher:

bear06 I believe that you are missing the point that he is trying to make. Your operative word is “applied” and indeed you can apply all the currect abuses to the Tridentine Liturgy. However, the point that is trying to be made, I believe, is that such grave abuses as are found today are not found in the history of the Tridentine Liturgy by and large. I would submit that if you look at the frustrations of Pius XII over abuses of that era and what are the abuses done today there is a stark difference. Again, my deeper assertion is that there is a tacit, unspoken schisim that is at the root of the most grevious abuses today.

Well, we are somewhat in agreement. That said, I believe we probably disagree as to why. I don’t think you can blame ANY Mass for the sins of the day. Nor do I think you can blame ANY particular Mass for the sins committed in the Mass. I think you can, however, blame those committing the sins. I think you can even blame poor catechesis on the Mass.

Also, like Andreas, I believe that one can prefer one Mass to another. Our wonderful retired pastor (the one who got our Indult) always said it was fine to be asthetically drawn to one Mass or another but to “stay away from those who say one Mass is better than another”. He preferred the Tridentine but said a beautiful “Novus Ordo”.