Latin Mass vs New Mass

[mosher]

bear06:

Well, we are somewhat in agreement. That said, I believe we probably disagree as to why. I don’t think you can blame ANY Mass for the sins of the day. Nor do I think you can blame ANY particular Mass for the sins committed in the Mass. I think you can, however, blame those committing the sins. I think you can even blame poor catechesis on the Mass.

Also, like Andreas, I believe that one can prefer one Mass to another. Our wonderful retired pastor (the one who got our Indult) always said it was fine to be asthetically drawn to one Mass or another but to “stay away from those who say one Mass is better than another”. He preferred the Tridentine but said a beautiful “Novus Ordo”.

That is my whole point. I believe that the deeper issue with serious liturgical abuse is because of malicious intent and a schismatic spirit. However, I would venture to say that much of the abuse is due to ignorance. However, in most cases this ignorance is not excusable because I know that there are many priests that never pick up a church document after they leave the seminary. So, this is a problem in and of itself.

 

[bear06]

Well then I guess we’re in agreement. I’m just happy to have our new bishop who is making a considerable effort to educate the clergy as well as the laity in this issue. It’s positively strange walking in to our local churches and seeing the GIRM being followed correctly.

 

[E.E.N.S]

What’s the deal with “No Mass?” (Catholic Dude, Isidore_AK)

 

[mosher]

bear06:

Well then I guess we’re in agreement. I’m just happy to have our new bishop who is making a considerable effort to educate the clergy as well as the laity in this issue. It’s positively strange walking in to our local churches and seeing the GIRM being followed correctly.

Olmstead?

 

[mosher]

E.E.N.S.:

What’s the deal with “No Mass?” (Catholic Dude, Isidore_AK)

I don’t understand your question.

 

[SFH]

My wife and I recently moved to New Jersey and we split Sundays between Assumption in Morristown (Novus Ordo) and Our Lady of Fatima Chapel in Pequannok (Tridentine).

The one thing I really like about the Tridentine Mass is that it attracts a much younger crowd. At least two of the priests look like they’re in their 20s and 90% of the congregation must be under 35 (at least at the 9 o’clock Mass that we go to) and have a ton of children. Since my wife and I are both young, we like going to a Mass where there are more people our own age.

The Novus Ordo Mass seems to attract more of the 50ish to 60ish types although there are certainly some younger people at Assumption too.

It’s somewhat counter-intuitive because you’d think the older people would be attracted to the Latin Mass and the younger people would want the more contemporary Mass, but where we go it looks like it’s the opposite.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

SFH:

My wife and I recently moved to New Jersey and we split Sundays between Assumption in Morristown (Novus Ordo) and Our Lady of Fatima Chapel in Pequannok (Tridentine).

The one thing I really like about the Tridentine Mass is that it attracts a much younger crowd. At least two of the priests look like they’re in their 20s and 90% of the congregation must be under 35 (at least at the 9 o’clock Mass that we go to) and have a ton of children. Since my wife and I are both young, we like going to a Mass where there are more people our own age.

The Novus Ordo Mass seems to attract more of the 50ish to 60ish types although there are certainly some younger people at Assumption too.

It’s somewhat counter-intuitive because you’d think the older people would be attracted to the Latin Mass and the younger people would want the more contemporary Mass, but where we go it looks like it’s the opposite.

Same here. At our TLM, there are many young families with hordes of kids. Just the thought of having one terrifies me. :bigyikes: With God’s grace, I may never face that challenge.

 

[Isidore_AK]

E.E.N.S.:

What’s the deal with “No Mass?” (Catholic Dude, Isidore_AK)

Just thought I’d be contrary…

Ya can’t let someone choose more than one answer and then expect no-one to check them all…

Also…no Mass could easily be taken as a ‘Novus Ordo’ Mass.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

SFH:

It’s somewhat counter-intuitive because you’d think the older people would be attracted to the Latin Mass and the younger people would want the more contemporary Mass, but where we go it looks like it’s the opposite.

I thought so too, but apparently not. I spoke to a few of the older folks at my last NO parish when I first discovered the indult Tridentine Mass in our diocese. I expected them to respond with nostalgic joy. Instead they told me “Why go back to the old Mass?” “I had 40 years of the priest not facing the people, I like it the way it is.” “Why would I want to hear the Mass in Latin? I don’t speak Latin.”

Many of these old people are the ones who fought for and embraced the radical changes 30-40 years ago. I mentioned the TLM to my wife’s grandmother. She said “I like the priest facing the people, not the wall.” I told her “Well, he’s there to speak to God, not to us, right?” She said “Well, God’s everywhere, isn’t he?” At this point, I would’ve pointed out that Christ Himself is actually present in the tabernacle, but of course finding the tabernacle in her church requires a bit of searching. So I dropped it.

There’s a quote I’ve seen in a few different articles, that sums this up nicely:

“There’s a whole generation of young Catholics who came across the Tridentine Mass and feel as if their birthright was taken away from them,” says Mary Kraychy, executive director of Ecclesei Dei, a national clearinghouse based in Illinois that distributes information about the Latin Mass. “They’re taking it back.”

Count me in that number.

 

[mosher]

I think it is the hippie generation fight the power mentality. It is what has brought American and other first world nations to moral depravity and it is what has hindered the activity of the Church for years.

 

[bear06]

mosher:

I think it is the hippie generation fight the power mentality. It is what has brought American and other first world nations to moral depravity and it is what has hindered the activity of the Church for years.

Now, this could be considered an insult to some of us who embrace the “Novus Ordo”. I can certainly tell you that I don’t thinking I’m fighting the Vatican. I don’t have a problem with the Tridentine Mass but I thank God everyday for the “Novus Ordo” and I’ll explain it again why this is so.

When I attend the “Novus Ordo” I, when I am wrestling in the back of the Church with my babies (maybe some of you have perfect children but mine don’t shape up until about age 3), never miss the Consecration. I don’t have to count the bells or see an elevation to know exactly going on. I don’t ever, ever, ever, want to miss that miracle. To be there for it is not enough for me. I want to know exactly when it occurs. I’ve gone to the Tridentine on quite a few occaisions I realized what I was missing.

Now my lot in life will change as the years go by. I will be able to focus more as the kids get older but right now I’ve got years before this will be the case.

I always see people talking about their kids who don’t move durling Mass. From what I’ve seen at the Tridentine I’ve attended, this is a rare thing. Maybe some don’t notic the noisy children because they’re out in the back with those of us who don’t want to distract others from seeing the greatest miracle in our Faith.

So, when you see those who embrace the “Novus Ordo” you might also try to recognize that the Faith may be very important to them too.

 

[mosher]

bear06:

Now, this could be considered an insult to some of us who embrace the “Novus Ordo”. I can certainly tell you that I don’t thinking I’m fighting the Vatican. I don’t have a problem with the Tridentine Mass but I thank God everyday for the “Novus Ordo” and I’ll explain it again why this is so.

When I attend the “Novus Ordo” I, when I am wrestling in the back of the Church with my babies (maybe some of you have perfect children but mine don’t shape up until about age 3), never miss the Consecration. I don’t have to count the bells or see an elevation to know exactly going on. I don’t ever, ever, ever, want to miss that miracle. To be there for it is not enough for me. I want to know exactly when it occurs. I’ve gone to the Tridentine on quite a few occaisions I realized what I was missing.

Now my lot in life will change as the years go by. I will be able to focus more as the kids get older but right now I’ve got years before this will be the case.

I always see people talking about their kids who don’t move durling Mass. From what I’ve seen at the Tridentine I’ve attended, this is a rare thing. Maybe some don’t notic the noisy children because they’re out in the back with those of us who don’t want to distract others from seeing the greatest miracle in our Faith.

So, when you see those who embrace the “Novus Ordo” you might also try to recognize that the Faith may be very important to them too.

My comment was not general it was in reference to the above couple posts.

However, be forwarned, my Archbishop who by no means is conservative and in fact leans a little left spoke to the seminarains recently and mentioned that most likely during this pontificate the priest will be turned back around. He asked them all to be prepared for it. There is also a possibility of a return to the silent canon.

For anyone, not you bear05, I would recommend the book “Spirit of the Liturgy” by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger because it will not only let you know the mind of the present Holy Father but it will also educate whomever is interested in authentic liturgy why things are or should be the way they are or should be.

 

[johnnyjoe]

Wolseley:

A better analogy would be to ask whether, given the choice, you preferred to eat your meal in the dining room of the Ritz-Carleton, or in Greasy Joe’s Discount Bar & Grill.

Ah, but the TLM & the NO is said in both shabby and beautiful churches…it is not the surroundings that you take exception to…

No. Jesus is always the same. The TLM simply produces a better, more reverent, and more worshipful atmosphere to encounter Him in.

Ah…the ad hominum opinion…that is really what this is all about. You can cast all the dispersions you like upon the NO, but to do so only confuses the Body of Christ, and often leads to the scandal of doubt about the validity of reception of the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

I have attended more than a few TLM masses where the words of consecration were virtually un-intelligible. This from supposedly very Orthodox priests. It is much simpler to abuse a mass in a dead language than to abuse one in the vernacular.

You can rightly claim that too much abuse is occuring with the NO, but the mass is not the problem, the slack behavior of priests and the congregants who put up with bad liturgy are the problem.

All the TLM fans whom I have met who deride the NO are decrying a symptom and not the problem. The reverence needed in the celebration of the mass has to be BROUGHT IN THE FRONT DOOR, to be present in the congregation. Most of the TLM fans I have met just want to take their ball and go home…none of that new evangelization nonsense for the crowd of Trads I have mixed with. They don’t want to be a part of the return of reverence to the greater Church, they want their own private place…a place of separation.

It’s okay with the Pope, and it’s okay with my Bishop, so that’ okay with me…just don’t degrade the NO because you think it’s the source of the problem…plain jane sin is the source of the problem…

 

[ncjohn]

I definitely prefer the NO for my regular Mass as I feel much more in touch with what’s going on. I grew up as an altar boy in the TLM back in the late 50’s/early 60’s and have no desire to go back to the disconnect I felt.

That being said, there is a beauty to the Tridentine high Mass that I wouldn’t mind experiencing again, but not on a regular basis.

 

[mosher]

JohnnyJoe: Is it a valid statement to say that form of ceremony effects a persons disposition to an event?

 

[bear06]

For anyone, not you bear05, I would recommend the book “Spirit of the Liturgy” by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger because it will not only let you know the mind of the present Holy Father but it will also educate whomever is interested in authentic liturgy why things are or should be the way they are or should be.

While I wouldn’t be at all surprised that the priest would be turned around, I would be very surprised if the canon went silent.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

johnnyjoe:

I have attended more than a few TLM masses where the words of consecration were virtually un-intelligible. This from supposedly very Orthodox priests. It is much simpler to abuse a mass in a dead language than to abuse one in the vernacular.

WOW! What kind of TLM were you attending that you were even able to hear the words of consecration, no matter how garbled? Were you serving?

I’m not a back row sitter, but I would presume that even if I were in the front row I couldn’t hear the Canon, including the words of consecration. Are you sure it wasn’t a Paul VI Mass in Latin?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Scotty PGH:

There’s a quote I’ve seen in a few different articles, that sums this up nicely:
Quote:

“There’s a whole generation of young Catholics who came across the Tridentine Mass and feel as if their birthright was taken away from them,” says Mary Kraychy, executive director of Ecclesei Dei, a national clearinghouse based in Illinois that distributes information about the Latin Mass. “They’re taking it back.”

Count me in that number.

Me too, Scotty. Me too. :tiphat:

I grew up with our priest preaching gauzy peace and love homilies. It’s like I was given dessert for years, with no meat. Zero, zip, zilch catechesis from the pulpit. Then there was the honey flavored altar bread, the stultifying ICEL translation, an army of EMHC at every Mass, girl altar boys a decade before Rome approved them and on and on.

All you gray hairs grew up with the TLM and don’t want it anymore. Super! More power to you. You had it and now look down your nose at it. Good. I never had it and now I’m getting it. My precious spiritual patrimony has been restored thanks to JPII and our good bishop.

If you belong to a parish with a good priest and a reverent Paul VI Mass, support it with all your might. Pray for your priest and that God will raise up many more in the decades to come. Good priests will do more to restore peace among Catholics than anything else. If we can be assured that anywhere we go in the US, we will hear exactly the same Mass said according to the rubrics, that will be true “catholicity.” As things stand now, Mass is like a box of chocolates. You never know what your gonna get.

Except at the TLM, of course.

 

[Wolseley]

johnnyjoe:

Ah, but the TLM & the NO is said in both shabby and beautiful churches…it is not the surroundings that you take exception to…

I never said it was. It is the way the liturgy itself is handled that I take exception to.

Ah…the ad hominum opinion…that is really what this is all about.

My dear fellow, where have I attacked you personally?

You can cast all the dispersions you like upon the NO, but to do so only confuses the Body of Christ, and often leads to the scandal of doubt about the validity of reception of the Sacrament of Holy Communion.

Not to mention the same scandal being forwarded by irreverent clergy who butcher the Novus Ordo Mass.

I have attended more than a few TLM masses where the words of consecration were virtually un-intelligible. This from supposedly very Orthodox priests. It is much simpler to abuse a mass in a dead language than to abuse one in the vernacular.

I quite agree.

You can rightly claim that too much abuse is occuring with the NO, but the mass is not the problem, the slack behavior of priests and the congregants who put up with bad liturgy are the problem.

Again, I never said the problem was with the Mass. The problem is with the abuse of the Mass. I suggest you re-read my earlier post, and what I had to say about it: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=861558&postcount=43

All the TLM fans whom I have met who deride the NO are decrying a symptom and not the problem. The reverence needed in the celebration of the mass has to be BROUGHT IN THE FRONT DOOR, to be present in the congregation. Most of the TLM fans I have met just want to take their ball and go home…none of that new evangelization nonsense for the crowd of Trads I have mixed with. They don’t want to be a part of the return of reverence to the greater Church, they want their own private place…a place of separation.

Please do not try to paint me as a RadTrad, if you wouldn’t mind. I have no desire to do battle for the disaffected SSPX or any of their clones or wannabes. I just want a reverent Mass where I can worship Christ in peace and dignity.

Is that too much to ask?

It’s okay with the Pope, and it’s okay with my Bishop, so that’ okay with me…just don’t degrade the NO because you think it’s the source of the problem…plain jane sin is the source of the problem…

Again, go back and read Post #43 of this thread before you accuse me of saying that the Mass is the problem. It isn’t, and I never said it was.

I said the way the N.O. Mass is being handled is the problem.

 

[Iohannes]

I have attended more than a few TLM masses where the words of consecration were virtually un-intelligible. This from supposedly very Orthodox priests. It is much simpler to abuse a mass in a dead language than to abuse one in the vernacular.

The consecration is suppose to be whispered. If the Consecration was deliberately out loud, then it would be liturgical abuse.

Cite a case where abuse occured in latin.
How is it simpler to abuse a Mass in Latin>

Funny thing is that when the Mass is in latin (NO or TLM), there is actually less abuse because the priests will have to read from the Missal, and what is the point of the abuse if the person had not audience?

I always hear of abuses occuring flambouyantly in English(priest making up their EP prayers), never heard any abuse that occured in the latin language(NO or TLM).