Latin Mass

[KendraDZ1902]

I’m not doing a very good job of making my point clear.

Maybe it would make more sense if I told you, “You’re talking to Mr. Spock here, not Captain Kirk.” Does that make it more clear what I’m getting at?

Of course 3rd graders at your parish serve the Traditional Mass, because they come from CATHOLIC families and they have been around the Mass since they were in the womb.

PROTESTANT families have no clue. The catechism speaks of “invincible ignorance.” Evangelical Protestants do not have any liturgical tradition at all. None.

When you say, “the Ordinary,” Protestants (Evangelicals) have no clue what you are talking about. When you say, “Serve at Mass,” same thing–no clue. And when you talk about the order of the Mass (prayer at the foot of the altar??), etc.–remember, Protestants have no idea what you are talking about. The 3rd graders know more than they do!

You might as well be speaking in Latin!

HOWEVER, Evangelical Protestants have a burning desire to learn. Many Evangelical Protestants will avoid “experiences” that they don’t understand. They want to know the what, when, where, how, and especially the WHY of everything about Christianity. That’s one reason why Catholics always find Evangelical Protestant converts so “enthusiastic.” It’s because the Evangelical Protestants are the ones with their Bibles and Catechisms open, a notebook and pen in hand, and their hands up waiting to ask questions of the priests or other teachers/speakers.

So don’t expect Evangelical Protestants to “immerse themselves” in anything that they don’t have a complete understanding of. For Evangelical Protestants, that’s a good way to drown, unless you know how to swim and are wearing appropriate life preservers.

:clapping: I don’t do anything religiously until I know EVERYTHING about it. lol.

 

[MarkThompson]

“celebrate these sacred Mysteries”… “the mystery of Faith”…

. . .

The “mystery” of the Latin Mass comes from the fact that the priest says many prayers silently, because he’s talking to God on behalf of the people. But we know exactly what he’s saying at all times if we choose to follow along in the missal. For the most part, the Mass is the Mass; however, the traditional Mass has preparatory prayers at the beginning (the “prayers at the foot of the altar”, mainly Psalm 42) that are omitted in the new Mass, and the offertory and communion prayers are more elaborate in the tradtional Mass.

You are equivocating on the use of the word “mystery.” In Catholic theology (and the New Testament), the term “mystery” does not signify the hidden, occult, or inscrutable – what we would typically call “mysterious.” Rather, it refers to divinely revealed truth which is outside the realm of natural reason alone to deduce. Thus, quite contrary to the commonplace signification of the word, sacred mysteries are things we do know – facts about God, salvation, the sacraments, etc. – but which we only know because they have been revealed to us, not by having figured them out ourselves.

Not knowing what’s going on at Mass makes the proceedings “mysterious,” I guess, in a certain facile sense. But that is not what Catholics are talking about when we use the term “mystery.”

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

There are reasons why one must flip pages to follow every word in the TLM, and it’s certainly not because whoever wrote the missal translation is trying to be intentionally confusing. Because certain parts of the Mass change, it’s necessary to keep those in a separate section to be flipped to during certain parts of the Mass. The only possible way to prevent that would be to have an entire missal for EACH set of readings and propers.

This is also something that happens with the Novus Ordo. If you look in your handy throwaway OCP missal, you’ll find that that there are separate sections for the readings. I don’t hear people complaining about that! Why is it so difficult with one Mass and not for the other one?

In regard to knowing something completely before immersing oneself, I wonder if that’s something anyone can truly do. I can read every book I can find on repairing cars, but I still won’t understand a lot of it unless I actually open the hood and start seeing things for myself. Book learning is great, but learning by experience is always the best.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

You’re talking to an ex-Protestant here . . . being confused and ignorant does NOT help ME to worship God.

Cat, I want to read what you have to say, but couldn’t you have said as much in a few sentences?

I can understand your fear of schismatics, but what does this have to do with the TLM itself?

You also seem to be equating knowing one’s faith with book learning, and with scrupulously following every detail that goes on, in real time, during the Mass. What did Catholics do before microphones, or before movable type? How about peasants who didn’t have access to all the resources we have today. Was St. Bernadette confused and ignorant? More people may be more literate today, but one would be hard pressed to show that more people understand the Mass today…

 

[KendraDZ1902]

You are equivocating on the use of the word “mystery.” In Catholic theology (and the New Testament), the term “mystery” does not signify the hidden, occult, or inscrutable – what we would typically call “mysterious.” Rather, it refers to divinely revealed truth which is outside the realm of natural reason alone to deduce. Thus, quite contrary to the commonplace signification of the word, sacred mysteries are things we do know – facts about God, salvation, the sacraments, etc. – but which we only know because they have been revealed to us, not by having figured them out ourselves.

Not knowing what’s going on at Mass makes the proceedings “mysterious,” I guess, in a certain facile sense. But that is not what Catholics are talking about when we use the term “mystery.”

I don’t like not knowing. That is why I started this thread. I don’t know anything about the traditional latin mass. I don’t like doing anything blindly and I don’t want to look like an idiot to people because I don’t know what is going on. If I am standing there looking like a fool and not knowing what is going on I will shut down. I would rather know the in’s and out’s so I don’t freak out and shut down.

 

[ProVobis]

And…I hate to tell you this, but I think that many Catholic Christians have been influenced by Evangelical Protestants, and they now want to know all about it, too, rather than just “immersing themselves.”

Isn’t this what traditionalists have been trying to say all along about the reformed liturgy?

I think that TLM advocates should seriously consider discontinuing the practice of telling people, “Just go buy a Missal” or “Just sit back and don’t worry about understanding it.”

I doubt if TLM advocates would use such casual tone.

 

[aemcpa]

I don’t like not knowing. That is why I started this thread. I don’t know anything about the traditional latin mass. I don’t like doing anything blindly and I don’t want to look like an idiot to people because I don’t know what is going on. If I am standing there looking like a fool and not knowing what is going on I will shut down. I would rather know the in’s and out’s so I don’t freak out and shut down.

Unless you know nothing about the Mass, you know plenty about the traditional Mass. It’s not a different religion, it’s just in a different language and with a few relatively minor “extras”.

For those that don’t know anything about the Mass, then they need to learn about the Mass in general before learning about its various forms.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Unless you know nothing about the Mass, you know plenty about the traditional Mass. It’s not a different religion, it’s just in a different language and with a few relatively minor** “extras”.**

For those that don’t know anything about the Mass, then they need to learn about the Mass in general before learning about its various forms.

The “extras” is what I want to know about. Is it hard to explain? You know what, forget it. I regret even starting this thread. :banghead: It has gotten me no where.

 

[aemcpa]

The “extras” is what I want to know about. Is it hard to explain? You know what, forget it. I regret even starting this thread. :banghead: It has gotten me no where.

There are literally hundreds of articles and books and whatnot on the subject. Many of them are written for the unfamiliar layperson.

thinking-catholic-strategic-center.com/Traditional-Latin-Tridentine-Mass.html

catholicism.about.com/od/worship/tp/Comparing_the_Masses.htm

catholic.com/magazine/articles/extraordinary-form-101

sanctamissa.org/en/faq/newcomers-to-the-traditional-latin-mass.html

Do you have a specific question about something that happens at the Traditional Mass?

 

[aemcpa]

**The structure of the Mass is as follows:

§ The Preparation – beginning with the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the Introit, Kyrie and Gloria.

§ The Instruction – including the Collect, the Epistle, Gradual, Alleluia, (or Tract, and on certain feasts the Sequence), the Gospel (usually followed by a sermon), and the Credo.

§ The Offertory – which includes the Offertory antiphon, the offering of bread, the pouring of water and wine into the chalice, the offering of the chalice, the washing of the hands, the prayer to the Blessed Trinity, the “Orate fratres” and the Secret.

§ The Consecration – including the Preface and the Canon of the Mass, embracing the prayer “Te igitur,” the Memento of the living, the Communicantes and the other two prayers before the Consecration and Elevation, the three prayers after the Consecration, the Commemoration for the Dead, the “Nobis quoque peccatoribus” and the Minor Elevation.

§ The Communion – including the Pater Noster, the Libera, the Agnus Dei, the three prayers before the Communion, the “Domine non sum dignus,” and the Communion of the Priest and the Faithful.

§ The Thanksgiving–which includes the Communion antiphon, the Post- communion prayer, the “Ite missa est,” and the Last Gospel.**

The only things that don’t happen at a Novus Ordo Mass are the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar (Psalm 42, recited silently before the Mass starts) and the Last Gospel (John 1, recited after the Mass ends). The “Introit” is the entrance antiphon, the “Gradual” is the Psalm after the first reading (only it’s sung straight through instead of verse and response like the responsorial psalm). The Offertory prayers and Communion prayers are longer and said silently, but those parts of the Mass are fundamentally the same. If the Mass is being sung, Mass is proceeding while the choir is singing, which is why people often get lost at first if they are trying to follow word-for-word. Basically, everything from the beginning up to the Gloria happens while the choir sings the Introit and Kyrie, and the Canon of the Mass is recited (up to the point just before the consecration) while the choir sings the Sanctus.

 

[10thCrusader]

I don’t like not knowing. That is why I started this thread. I don’t know anything about the traditional latin mass. I don’t like doing anything blindly and I don’t want to look like an idiot to people because I don’t know what is going on. If I am standing there looking like a fool and not knowing what is going on I will shut down. I would rather know the in’s and out’s so I don’t freak out and shut down.

I regularly attend the Latin Mass (the Solemn High Mass), and believe me, nobody is going to think you’re a fool. We get so many new people that it’s not unusual for somebody to be a little off-timing on parts of the Mass. If you don’t get the responses right, you’ll get them the next time - no biggie.

If you get really lost sometimes a neighbor will helpfully point out where we are in the missal. If you’re really nervous, tell the ushers it’s your first time, and they can maybe get someone to sit with you and help out.

The only big thing to remember is no “Amen” after receiving Communion for the reasons I mentioned above. That can be a little awkward for the priests.

Don’t be afraid. We’re just ordinary people. We don’t bite.

 

[jeannetherese]

Is there a reason why the Missal for the Latin Mass has not been re-written to make it easier for newbies to follow?

The little red books follow the order of the mass. They also have additional explanatory notes that I find useful for meditation. As some people have noted, there are some prayers which change in accordance with the date in the E.F. as well as in the O.F.

Rather than create a different red book for each mass (which would cost a bundle) my FSSP parish prints out a sheet of these prayers (and the weekly reading) that are also in mass order so that those assisting may read along as well. Both Latin and the English translations are provided. The sheets are also available online for downloading if people wish to bring their own copies or read them at home.

The red books may be ordered quite cheaply (in fact they are currently on sale: $4.95) at

fraternitypublications.com/hand-missals.html

If you search other pages, you will find a great deal of discussion of the different missals-everyone seems to have their own favorite. I have my own, but the red books are just fine and I appreciate their larger print. :thumbsup:

May God bless us all! Amen.

 

[floresco]

Is there a reason why the Missal for the Latin Mass has not been re-written to make it easier for newbies to follow? Or is there are “TLM for Dummies” available?

amazon.com/For-Visitor-Mass-Richard-Ginder/dp/189233156X

Intended primarily for newcomers (Catholic or not) to the Tridentine Latin Mass (aka the Traditional Latin Mass, the Extraordinary form of Mass, Mass according to the 1962 Missal of Blessed John XXIII, usus antiquior, etc). Forty-seven striking color photos accompany the explanations of every major part of the Mass. Sections include: -What is the Mass? -Mass of the Catechumens -The Introit -The Gloria -The Epistle -The Gospel -Sermon -The Creed -Mass of the Faithful -Offertory -The Preface -The Canon -The Consecration -The Our Father -Holy Communion -Final Blessing and the Last Gospel -Prayers after Mass The photographs are mini-meditations in themselves, clearly evoking the nature of the liturgical actions taking place. The explanations are rich in concise spiritual, doctrinal, liturgical and historical insights. Can be read before the Mass as a preparation or read at Mass as you follow along. Priced inexpensively so that they can be freely given to anyone new to this form of the Mass. Ideal for pastors to stock as give-aways. Most importantly, you will learn to unite yourself to the Sacrifice of the Altar. This is a form of participation that is little understood today…consequently, this book will deepen the faith of all Catholics.

 

[Spencer3096]

Like others have said, following along in the missal(ette) is your best option. I don’t know what the ones you have access to will look like, but the ones at my parish have some illustrations and explanatory notes in the sidebars (such as the gestures of the priest). That being said, it will take attending a few times in order to get “comfortable” with attending the EF, just because it is different enough from the OF to be a bit jarring to newcomers. Arrive early if you can.

Here’s a page which goes over the order of the EF in Latin and in English: Divinum Officium. Just enter the date at the top, and click on “Sancta Missa”, and it will go over the whole order for the day, including all the parts that change. It’s great for looking up the readings ahead of time .

Also, it’s probably not a good idea to try to follow along in the missal while the priest is saying the Canon (a.k.a. Eucharistic Prayer). because it’s said in a virtually silent whisper. Unless, of course, you want to count how many times he makes the sign of the cross in order to see where he is . (This is coming from personal experience). In any case, bells will be used to let you know w warning: certain sections of this site (e.g. its forum) can be a little disparaging towards the Ordinary Form of the Mass, but I haven’t found a better resource yet for educating oneself on traditional, pre-VII practices within the Church.hen the consecration happens. 1 bell is rung at the “hanc igitur”, which is right before the consecration, and when you see the priest bend low over the Altar, that’s when he’s consecrating the Host. Bells are then rung before and after he genuflects. The same thing happens when he consecrates the Chalice. Hope this helps.

 

[Spencer3096]

Also, it’s probably not a good idea to try to follow along in the missal while the priest is saying the Canon (a.k.a. Eucharistic Prayer). because it’s said in a virtually silent whisper. Unless, of course, you want to count how many times he makes the sign of the cross in order to see where he is . (This is coming from personal experience). In any case, bells will be used to let you know when the consecration happens. 1 bell is rung at the “hanc igitur”, which is right before the consecration, and when you see the priest bend low over the Altar, that’s when he’s consecrating the Host. Bells are then rung before and after he genuflects. The same thing happens when he consecrates the Chalice. Hope this helps.

Above is what I intended to write. I just now noticed that I can’t go back and edit what I wrote. I was going to refer the OP to a section on Fish Eaters, but then I decided against it since certain sections of that site are a bit disparaging towards the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

 

[hoop0826]

Here’s a website that helped me:

sanctamissa.org

Also Una Voce is a good resource

 

[opus101]

Is there a reason why the Missal for the Latin Mass has not been re-written to make it easier for newbies to follow? Or is there are “TLM for Dummies” available?

JMO, but this “TLM Missal thing” feels a little “snotty” to me. It seems to me–and again, this is just my opinion–that the advocates of the Latin Mass delight in keeping “The Secrets” to themselves and forcing others to grit their teeth and search for a MIssal (often found online only), and then figure it out over time. I’ve even seen posts on this board that say, “It took me about a year to figure out what was happening, but once I did…”

What is the point of this mysteriousness?! Why not just educate people?

Why not provide a Manual for Dummies that will be in order of the actual liturgy, with no flipping around (flipping around a book seems to me to promote irritation and possible irreverence), explain what the lay person in the pew is expected to do or not do, have good translations into the vernacular for those who wish to understand what is being said, and above all else, explain all the symbolism in the choreography of the TLM for all the newbies.

We all (traditionalist and non-traditionalists) talk about the desperate need for Catholic catechesis, and this seems to me to be a no-brainer!–an easy-to-follow Guide to the TLM! I think this would bring a lot more people into the TLM parishes, because they would be able to read about the TLM in advance and “study up” so that they wouldn’t feel foolish or feel like they were attracting attention to themselves.

Certain Catholic apologists have written excellent Mass guides for the OF Mass that explain everything–we have some of these out in our parish narthex. Does anything like this exist for the TLM? It should exist.

Thank you, and I hope that this post will result in something good.

 

[10thCrusader]

Like others have said, following along in the missal(ette) is your best option. I don’t know what the ones you have access to will look like, but the ones at my parish have some illustrations and explanatory notes in the sidebars (such as the gestures of the priest). That being said, it will take attending a few times in order to get “comfortable” with attending the EF, just because it is different enough from the OF to be a bit jarring to newcomers. Arrive early if you can.
.

Someone told me today at Mass that our FSSP pastor used to give a little explanation of the EF just before the homily about the EF Mass, when the EF Mass was just starting up. He would cover things like how to behave, about women covering their heads, about men uncovering their heads, etc.

He also said something interesting that I didn’t know. Unmarried women traditionally wore white chapel veils and married women traditionally wore black chapel veils. It’s no matter for me as I wear a hat. It’s just a cultural tradition - nothing binding really, but kind of interesting.

He also said you have to attend the EF Mass about 16 times before you really get the feel for it, so don’t be discouraged if it seems a little confusing at first.

 

[aTraditionalist]

I don’t want to hijack the thread, but I will add my two cents. All above statements have their merits. I recently started going to a TLM. I went to my third one today as a matter of fact. To the OP, I’m still lost sometimes. The parish should provide a missal but if it should not I found a reproduction 1962 missal on Amazon for $9. I also grabbed a Daily Missal on EBay that is in great condition for $20. I suggest just going and take it all in. The first time I went left me confused but after a couple of days of reflection, I was very much drawn to it. Now that I’ve had time to objectively compare the two masses, I don’t think I’ll willingly go to the new mass unless it can’t be helped. It sounds strange but when I came into the Church 5 years ago, I was expecting a Mass like this and I’m happy to say that I finally found it.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[Lion_IRC]

The first time, and maybe the first few times, I suggest you don’t try to follow the text the whole time, maybe not at all. Just watch and take everything in…"

Great advice!

The first time I went, I couldnt hear what the priest and altar server were saying, they were speaking so softly, so I moved right up to the front row. Then, I couldnt see what was going on behind me. So I moved across to the end of the pew so I could see over my shoulder a little better.

And it was obvious that everyone knew I was the one and only ‘‘spectator’’ but equally obvious that I was interested in learning.