I like to think we are moving forward with such traditions in the Latin Rite.What then is the beauty of the Latin Rite Catholic Church? Should we try to bring back the beautiful traditions of our Rite?
For me I also love all the crossing and bowing we do during the Divine Liturgy. The prayer you posted we cross our selves six times during it, once at each “Remember me” and once at each of the three last lines.I didn’t leave the Latin Rite because of abhorance to the OF. The way my mind think, I love the prayers in the Divine Liturgy, just how poetic they are. As opposed to the straight forward, clear-cut prayers of the Latin Rite, and this is both OF and EF. Here’s an example:
OF Prayer before communion:
Lord, I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I shall be healed
EF Prayer before communion:
Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum: sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea.
Lord, I am not worthy that Thou shouldst enter under my roof; say but the word, and my soul shall be healed
Divine Liturgy Prayer before communion (Ukrainian tradition):
I believe, O Lord, and confess that You are truly Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. Accept me this day, O son of God, as a partaker of Your mystical Supper. I will not tell the mystery to Your enemies, nor will I give You a kiss as did Judas, but like the thief, I confess to You:
Remember me, O Lord, when You come into Your kingdom.
Remember me, O Master, when You come into Your kingdom,
Remember me, O Holy One, when You come into Your kingdom.
May the partaking of Your Holy Mysteries, O Lord, be unto me not for judgment or condemnation but for the healing of the soul and body.
God, be merciful to me a sinner.
God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
I have sinned without number, forgive me, O Lord.
Ultimately it says the same thing. But I just like the poetry involved in the Eastern prayers. The Latin Rite prayers are known to be more specific, direct, clear. Nothing wrong with that, I just like poetic more.
edit:
To add, just because the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom has been around for about 1500 years, doesn’t mean its the same exact Liturgy all this while. There has been many “innovations” within the Liturgy that there may be variations from Church to Church. For one thing, notice I tagged the Prayer before Communion as Ukrainian tradition. A Melkite parish would have a similar but different prayer, and so will other Byzantine Churches. Some songs are the same in lyrics but different in musical sets. And there are tiny practices here and there that may exist in one Church and not another. One thing the Ukrainians do as well is kiss the book of Gospels during the Small Entrance. So there’s no master rubric that everyone follows everywhere as some here would advocate for the Roman Rite.
Most people that go to church seem to like the changes. I personally prefer the old way - the Latin Mass. I attend both and have been going to the Latin Mass twice a month for around 17 years now. Recently, due to a shortage of altar boys, I began serving again at 55 years old!!! When I first became an altar boy in 1963, for 2 years, the Mass was the old Mass so, here I am, serving the Mass with the same rubrics as back then! I love it. I love everything about the Latin Mass - the prayers in Latin with the beautiful Douay-Rheims Translation, the music and the quiet of the Low Mass. I really like praying the Canon of the Mass with the priest quietly. It is so quiet during that part because the priest doesn’t pray loud. To me, it always feels like grace is in the air! I feel like I’m in another world! Just beautiful!Many is leaving the Latin Rite for the Eastern Rite(albeit nothing is wrong with this) for the reason that the Latin Rite is getting more and more modernized. Music, art, presentations…, somehow it feels as if the Latin Rite post-Vatican II had changed. What then is the beauty of the Latin Rite Catholic Church? Should we try to bring back the beautiful traditions of our Rite?
Yes, Byzantines are big on “worshiping with the senses”. From what I call a “visual flood” of icons, to the smell of incense, to the singing. I also appreciate that there is hardly any lull in Divine Liturgy. Everything just flows from one to the next. Even with the Ukrainians who use pews and would sit at times during Divine Liturgy, there’s no need for prompting “please sit, please stand,” people just know what to do, when. Or just stand the whole Liturgy which would be best and returning to the roots of traditions.For me I also love all the crossing and bowing we do during the Divine Liturgy. The prayer you posted we cross our selves six times during it, once at each “Remember me” and once at each of the three last lines.
Also I love the prostrations we do during the Presanctified Liturgies. It just seems our bodies are more involved in the worship.
I certainly didn’t leave because of Modernization. I applied for canonial transfer because of the lack of symbolism congruent with my mindset in both EF and OF.Many is leaving the Latin Rite for the Eastern Rite(albeit nothing is wrong with this) for the reason that the Latin Rite is getting more and more modernized. Music, art, presentations…, somehow it feels as if the Latin Rite post-Vatican II had changed. What then is the beauty of the Latin Rite Catholic Church? Should we try to bring back the beautiful traditions of our Rite?
I don’t necessarily see all change as bad and that includes changes back. I do not mind pews, due to my illness and fatigue, if I am standing still I must sit down. Its not a problem when I serve as there is a lot of walking around when you serve. So I guess if the pews were not there I could walk around.Yes, Byzantines are big on “worshiping with the senses”. From what I call a “visual flood” of icons, to the smell of incense, to the singing. I also appreciate that there is hardly any lull in Divine Liturgy. Everything just flows from one to the next. Even with the Ukrainians who use pews and would sit at times during Divine Liturgy, there’s no need for prompting “please sit, please stand,” people just know what to do, when. Or just stand the whole Liturgy which would be best and returning to the roots of traditions.
Now thats a noteworthy practice. Ukrainian Catholics have self-imposed Latinizations because they were trying to preserve their Catholic identiy amidst Russian-imposed Orthodoxy on Ukrainians. It was a necessary break in rubric but a break nonetheless. Some may see this as an unwanted Latinization. Some will accept it as a necessary development of tradition forced upon by persecution. Needless to say, the root of it is there is a change. Do we have to see all changes as bad?
Some people do see it as bad. But when I heard the reason behind it, I felt honored to be now among those who fought for their faith. So when you see Latinizations in the UGCC, you don’t think its something that Rome forced on them or they’re trying to suck up to Rome. Its a result of them fighting for their Catholic faith and identity amidst persecution.I don’t necessarily see all change as bad and that includes changes back. I do not mind pews, due to my illness and fatigue, if I am standing still I must sit down. Its not a problem when I serve as there is a lot of walking around when you serve. So I guess if the pews were not there I could walk around.
At my home parish, we sit and stand and sit until the Great Entrance, then we stand for the rest of the Liturgy. That seems to be the way of things here in Tucson also. My home parish is Melkite and my Tucson parish is Ruthenian.
I do think it is an issue when a group feels that they need to take upon themselves something from out side of their traditions (latinization) so that they can feel Catholic.Some people do see it as bad. But when I heard the reason behind it, I felt honored to be now among those who fought for their faith. So when you see Latinizations in the UGCC, you don’t think its something that Rome forced on them or they’re trying to suck up to Rome. Its a result of them fighting for their Catholic faith and identity amidst persecution.
But now you have the issue of getting people back to older practices. Its a slow process. St. Elias as I mentioned in the past is the gold standard for the UGCC here in North America. Other parishes are following slowly. In fact in our Eparchy, the “Divine Liturgy: An Anthology for Worship” is not even used outside our own parish. And if our subdeacon isn’t there, we usually revert to older musical sets. The Anthology is meant to be the approved text and music sets today for North America. But its rollout is somewhat slow. I think what we need first is an infusion of new blood into the parishes who are willing to accept a restoration of tradition.I do think it is an issue when a group feels that they need to take upon themselves something from out side of their traditions (latinization) so that they can feel Catholic.
That need is no longer present and needs to be restored to their proper traditions.
What they do for private devotions is just that, their private devotions. They should be encouraged to pick up Byzantine private devotions but if they do not wish to then so be it. But as for the Church and the public devotions, those should return to what they should be.
Otherwise you end up with some sort of hybrid rite that really fits nowhere.
Its not that way. They infused Latinizations to hold on to their Catholic identity, from what I understand. Its not that they did it because of persecution, but persecution made them introduce innovations to the tradition to remind them they are Catholic.So, certain Latin devotions are permissible in times of persecution. Interesting.
That’s not what I said.So, certain Latin devotions are permissible in times of persecution. Interesting.
There was a need in their perspective to hold on to their Catholic identity. Since the persecution by the Russians is no longer happening, they can now return to their traditions before those persecutions. But its a long and slow process. Its not like we’ll just throw away all those pews and kneelers overnight. Many have grown up with the current Latinized practices. Just imagine how many traditionalists complain about the TLM being pulled out from under their feet. That will happen in the UGCC if they make a sudden change.OK, I thought you were implying that when you wrote “That need is no longer present”, since it makes it sound like there was once a need.
I can't help but see the irony when a certain group within the Eastern Rite churches insists on things being just as they were (liturgically speaking) in the 16th or 17th century, while in the Latin Rite we sometimes here "We are not going back to the 1950's"