Latin Songs In the English Mass.Why?

[lizaanne]

Ok - pardon me if I sound like an impatient parent, but that may be how this is going to come across.

I’m going to assume that those who are complaining about this here are grown adults.

If you have an issue with not being provided the music and the words - why in the world are you complaining about it here on the internet, and not telling someone at your parish who can actually HELP you!!!

Call the parish office - ask to speak with the minister of music - tell them you would appreciate being given the music and words of the sung parts of the Mass (again, they are not “songs”) - and that the parishoners need to be helped through learning this.

Crabbing about it on the internet is not going to help you. If you want something, often times you actually have to ask for it from a source that actually has the ability to help you!

What a concept.

~Liza

 

[Cat]

That’s not what the Church wants. The Church wants the changeable parts in the vernacular (i.e. English) and the non-changing parts in Latin.

As for not knowing the language, that’s just crock. I can even post some now so that there’s no excuse.

Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy).
Christe, eleison (Christ, have mercy).
Kyrie, eleison.

Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus (Holy, holy, holy)
Dominus Deus Sabaoth (Lord God of hosts [power and might]).
Pleni sunt caeli et terra gloria tua (Heaven and earth are full of your glory)
Hosanna in excelsis (Hosanna in the highest).
Benedictus qui venit (Blessed is he who comes) in nomine Domini (in the name of the Lord).
Hosanna in excelsis.

Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) qui tollis (who takes away) peccatta mundi (the sins of the world), miserere nobis (have mercy on us).
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccatta mundi, miserere nobis.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccatta mundi, dona nobis pacem (grant us peace).

A crock?

I’m sorry, but I just don’t get it. Latin is a language. I appreciate the Catholic history, but I don’t get anything special out of it in a Mass setting. I will certainly submit to the authority of the Vatican and try to appreciate it in an NO Mass, but I, like the OP, prefer my heart language.

Perhaps what all of those who are Latin proponents should do is stop telling all of us how wonderful it is, and start praying that somehow, we would be given the gift to be able to truly appreciate it. I don’t have that gift. It’s just a language to me.

 

[Brendan]

That’s great for songs in english. I don’t know latin and can’t just pick it up from hearing it sung, without the words.

We sang the lamb of God in latin yesterday. I have no idea what they were saying, because most people mumbled through it since they didn’t know the words either.

No problem, that the great thing about living in the age of the Internet

Here is the music

http://www.adoremus.org/NewABart/AgnusDei.jpg

And here is the common melody

adoremus.org/hymns/32%20Agnus%20Dei.mp3

Just so you are prepared for other occurences.

Here is the same page for the Sanctus
adoremus.org/Sanctus.html

And the Pater Noster
adoremus.org/hymns/09%20Pater%20Noster,%20with%20introduction%20and%20embolism.mp3

 

[Dauphin]

It’s a really sad state of affairs when Catholics don’t understand what use tradition is, when they’re confused by any expression of faith older than 40 years, and when they’re too lazy to learn simple short prayers that have been recited by Catholics for centuries.

 

[lizaanne]

It’s a really sad state of affairs when Catholics don’t understand what use tradition is, when they’re confused by any expression of faith older than 40 years, and when they’re too lazy to learn simple short prayers that have been recited by Catholics for centuries.

:yup: :clapping:

~Liza

 

[idrum677]

iI your parish has the music issue from OCP (grrr)- it is in the back with the other Mass settings labeled Chant Mass.

We brought back the Sanctus, Agnus Dei, Kyrie during lent. I can’t tell the participation from the loft but my wife tells me its about 50-50. I think in time people will catch on and it will seem normal.

To some, Latin seems like we are going backwards. I find it refereshing as I am a post 1972 baby. I would like to hear more latin infused in the novus ordo- such as how they do it on EWTN.

 

[Brendan]

A crock?

I’m sorry, but I just don’t get it. Latin is a language. I appreciate the Catholic history, but I don’t get anything special out of it in a Mass setting. I will certainly submit to the authority of the Vatican and try to appreciate it in an NO Mass, but I, like the OP, prefer my heart language.

How about this. Try and appreciate it for the sake of visitors.

I got to know the Latin (NO) Mass simply because I travelled a lot for business. I was able to go to a Latin Mass in many, many countries and I saved me from having to learn enough Dutch, Korean, German, French and Turkish to particpate in the Mass.

If people actually obeyed Vatican II and learned enough Latin to say or sing the responses, then visitors who might not be familiar enough with English could pariticpate as well.

Don’t you think that would be a good, noble and Christian thing to do.

(BTW, in his recent Apostolic Exhortation, Sacramentum Caritas, Pope Benedict stated that large Masses with multilingual crowds should be in Latin. So if you know anyone going to World Youth Day in Austrailia, tell them to brush up on their Latin )

 

[ibkc]

Brendan, thank you for those resources.

 

[japhy]

The real problem, then, is that your pastor has re-introduced the Latin Ordinaries without giving the parish any instruction. There should have been something in the bulletin, an announcement, or SOMETHING! If the pastor makes just a tiny bit of effort in this regard (or delegates it to the music ministry, and they follow through), the problem will disappear.

 

[Brendan]

BTW,

In 1974, Pope Paul VI issued a directive that the Catholic Faithful know certain songs and hymns in Latin.

This was published, in a hymnal know as *Jubilate Deo *with the following cover letter by the Congregation for Divine Worship

Eminence, Excellency,

Our congregation has prepared a booklet entitled, “Jubilate Deo”, which contains a minimum selection of sacred chants. This was done in response to a desire which the Holy Father had frequently expressed, that all the faithful should know at least some Latin Gregorian chants, such as, for example, the “Gloria”, the “Credo”, the “Sanctus”, and the “Agnus Dei”.

It gives me great pleasure to send you a copy of it, as a personal gift from His Holiness, Pope Paul VI. May I take this opportunity of recommending to your pastoral solicitude this new initiative, whose purpose is to facilitate the observance of the recommendation of the Second Vatican Council "…steps must be taken to ensure that the faithful are able to chant together in Latin those parts of the ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.[2]

In effect, when the faithful gather together for prayer they manifest at once the diversity of a people drawn "from every tribe, language and nation (Ap. 5:9) and its unity in faith and charity. Their diversity is manifested in the present multiplicity of liturgical languages and in the vernacular chants which, in the context of one shared faith, give expression to each people’s religious sentiment in music drawn from its culture and traditions. On the other hand, their unity finds particularly apt and even sensible expression through the use of Latin Gregorian chant.

Down the centuries, Gregorian chant has accompanied liturgical celebrations in the Roman rite, has nourished men’s faith and has fostered their piety, while in the process achieving an artistic perfection which the Church rightly considers a patrimony of inestimable value and which the Council recognized as “the chant especially suited to the Roman liturgy.”[3]

One of the objectives of the liturgical reform is to promote community singing in assemblies of the faithful, so that they might the better express the festive, communal and fraternal character of liturgical celebrations. In effect, "the liturgical action becomes more dignified when it is accompanied by chant, when each minister fulfills his own role and the faithful also take part.[4]

Those who are charged with responsibility for the liturgical reform are particularly anxious to achieve this difficult objective. To that end, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship appeals once again, as they have often done in the past, for the proper development of singing by the faithful.

The links I provided above are from the music published in that book.

So really, if anyone doesn’t know how to sing the Gloria, Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei. the blame should fall foremost on the priests and bishops who failed to teach them, as directed, over the last 30 years.

But it still falls to us to learn.

 

[japhy]

So really, if anyone doesn’t know how to sing the Gloria, Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei. the blame should fall foremost on the priests and bishops who failed to teach them, as directed, over the last 30 years.

That part of Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 14 was apparently “lost in translation”, so to speak:
Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. … In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; … therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work. Yet it would be futile to entertain any hopes of realizing this unless the pastors themselves, in the first place, become thoroughly imbued with the spirit and power of the liturgy, and undertake to give instruction about it. A prime need, therefore, is that attention be directed, first of all, to the liturgical instruction of the clergy.
In other words, “fully conscious and active participation” was not supposed to be brought about by countless changes and abuses and improvisations and innovations, but by being taught about the liturgy by our pastors! Oh well.

 

[Corki]

The question is, how do you learn these songs if the church doesn’t teach them or make the words available? That’s my issue. It’s fine for the old folks who were around 50 years ago, but many of us have never heard this stuff before and are just lost.

“the church” DOES teach them and DOES make the words available. They may or may not spend much time teaching them in your particular parish.

In my own parish, we use the Latin chants during Lent. One of our song leaders, as a sign of rebellion, wouldn’t tell anyone where to follow along. The words and chant notations WERE in the song books along with the tunes to other frequently used Mass settings. It took us a week or two but we caught on. Seek and ye shall find. BTW, a seach on line will find you not only the words but also audio.

 

[pnewton]

Besides all the good reasons given, why not???

No song selection is going to make everybody thrilled with every song. If this is the biggest beef, it seems the overall music is pleasing. If not, get involved in the music and help, let those who decide make their choice in peace.

 

[benedictgal]

A crock?

I’m sorry, but I just don’t get it. Latin is a language. I appreciate the Catholic history, but I don’t get anything special out of it in a Mass setting. I will certainly submit to the authority of the Vatican and try to appreciate it in an NO Mass, but I, like the OP, prefer my heart language.

Perhaps what all of those who are Latin proponents should do is stop telling all of us how wonderful it is, and start praying that somehow, we would be given the gift to be able to truly appreciate it. I don’t have that gift. It’s just a language to me.

Cat, Latin is the language of the Church. That has never changed. Now, the Second Vatican Council made allowances for use of the vernacular, but, the default language remains Latin.

To totally disregard this sacred language and make light of it without even bothering to learn its history and why the Church has continued to use it shows some misguided notions.

Latin is the language of the heart of the Church (to use your words). If you know any of the romance languages, you will not find it difficult to pick it up. Spanish and Italian come very close to it. If you ever listened to Vatican Radio, you will find that when it comes to the LOTH and the recitation of the Rosary, these are done in Latin. In fact, sometimes they will have a young child leading the Rosary in Latin.

The other thing is that there should be a willingness on the part of the faithful to at least learn some part of it. The Holy Father is leading by example. If you were to go to Vatican City and attend a Papal audience, you will be given a ticket. In the back of the ticket, you will find the words to the Our Father in Latin. Towards the end of the audience, the Holy Father leads the pilgrims in the chanting of the Pater Noster. The faithful follow along with the words written on the ticket. In fact, when the Holy Father is celebrating Mass in the presence of the international community, the Mass parts are generally chanted in Latin. The words are printed in the service booklets the people receive.

 

[benedictgal]

It’s a really sad state of affairs when Catholics don’t understand what use tradition is, when they’re confused by any expression of faith older than 40 years, and when they’re too lazy to learn simple short prayers that have been recited by Catholics for centuries.

Your post makes a lot of sense. It also makes me worry about the kind of formation all of the RCIA folks are receiving. There seems to be scant references to things like Latin chant or anything that didn’t happen prior to the Council.

I learned how to pray a good chunk of the rosary in Latin by listening to Vatican Radio. In fact, watching the Papal Masses has taught me to pray some of the parts of the Mass in Latin. During the Feast of the Presentation of the Lord, I went to the Priory of St. John for Mass. When the Gloria was chanted in Latin, my pewmate was surprised that I knew it and the other Latin parts. It’s not that I am a brilliant linguist by any means, but, having heard it long enough while viewing the Papal Masses, something had to stick. Of course, it helps that I know (and studied) Italian and Spanish; but, there is also a desire in me to learn our Chruch’s sacred liturgical language.

 

[nerddad]

to the OP, there is also an opposite view which i share,
i.e. the “new improved more beautiful” Lamb of God which we have
to sing at our parish, (outside of Lent)…which BTW i haven’t discovered the words to yet…something like “Bread of Life…”
our congregation falls silent not knowing the words…but participation in Agnus Dei in Latin during Lent sounded like 100% to me…our music minister also likes the super long flowerly English version of the Sanctus, which i have to follow the words in the book to sing right. I never memorized the Sanctus, but i sure would if they would sing it…( for some reason they didn’t use it during Lent…just the Kyrie and Agnus Dei… oh Kyrie is Greek BTW )
i was born early 60’s but the only Mass i remember was in English…
anyway …just wanted to point out there is always two sides

 

[Cat]

Cat, Latin is the language of the Church. That has never changed. Now, the Second Vatican Council made allowances for use of the vernacular, but, the default language remains Latin.

To totally disregard this sacred language and make light of it without even bothering to learn its history and why the Church has continued to use it shows some misguided notions.

Latin is the language of the heart of the Church (to use your words). If you know any of the romance languages, you will not find it difficult to pick it up. Spanish and Italian come very close to it. If you ever listened to Vatican Radio, you will find that when it comes to the LOTH and the recitation of the Rosary, these are done in Latin. In fact, sometimes they will have a young child leading the Rosary in Latin.

The other thing is that there should be a willingness on the part of the faithful to at least learn some part of it. The Holy Father is leading by example. If you were to go to Vatican City and attend a Papal audience, you will be given a ticket. In the back of the ticket, you will find the words to the Our Father in Latin. Towards the end of the audience, the Holy Father leads the pilgrims in the chanting of the Pater Noster. The faithful follow along with the words written on the ticket. In fact, when the Holy Father is celebrating Mass in the presence of the international community, the Mass parts are generally chanted in Latin. The words are printed in the service booklets the people receive.

benedictgal, you’re sweet to suggest all of these. But I don’t think we’re communicating here. I think you are assuming that everyone is like you. We’re not.

You say, “If I know any of the Romance languages…?”
Why would I know those? Spanish? Italian? Why would I know those?! I took German in high school. I don’t know any Romance languages. The only Spanish I know is from watching Speedy Gonzales cartoons.

I actually took a year of Latin in high school, and didn’t like it, so I gave it up. One language was enough. The only reason I took German is that I have been fascinated with World War II since my childhood, and wanted to learn more about it.

I don’t listen to Vatican Radio. I can’t get that station. I really don’t listen to any radio unless I am on the road, and then it fades in and out. The only Rosaries I’ve heard on the radio are in English. That’s fine with me. If you prefer Latin, that’s fine, too. It’s the same prayer, isn’t it? Are you suggesting that God listens harder when the prayer is in Latin? I don’t think so.

I’m glad to know about what will happen if I ever go to Rome to see the Holy Father. First, that will very likely never happen. I’m one of the two or three people in the U.S. who really doesn’t have any interest whatsoever in travelling outside of my own country. And second, if I did go to Rome, of course I would do what is proper at the Vatican. But I don’t live in Rome. I live in Illinois.

And if you’ll read my post, you’ll see that I’m not totally disregarding Latin and refusing to learn its history and relationship with the Catholic Church. In my post, I specficially stated that I respect the history of Latin and the Catholic Church. I have asked you this before and I’ll ask again–please do not make me into someone that I am not, and then criticize me for being a person that you have made up.

I am very willing to submit to the decrees of Rome and learn the Latin that is used in my Church. My own personal preferences must be put aside for the preferences of the Lord. I understand that.

IF you would read my post, you will see that I am not demanding that my Church do things MY way.

What I am requesting is that all of you who love Latin and get the colly-wobbles listening to it in Mass should **PRAY for the rest of us, that we would somehow receive a measure of the same love for the “heart language of the Church” that you already have. For some reason, we didn’t receive that “gift” of loving Latin. ** Tolerating it, yes. Respecting it, definitely. But loving it–

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal, you’re sweet to suggest all of these. But I don’t think we’re communicating here. I think you are assuming that everyone is like you. We’re not.

You say, “If I know any of the Romance languages…?”
Why would I know those? Spanish? Italian? Why would I know those?! I took German in high school. I don’t know any Romance languages. The only Spanish I know is from watching Speedy Gonzales cartoons.

I actually took a year of Latin in high school, and didn’t like it, so I gave it up. One language was enough. The only reason I took German is that I have been fascinated with World War II since my childhood, and wanted to learn more about it.

I don’t listen to Vatican Radio. I can’t get that station. I really don’t listen to any radio unless I am on the road, and then it fades in and out. The only Rosaries I’ve heard on the radio are in English. That’s fine with me. If you prefer Latin, that’s fine, too. It’s the same prayer, isn’t it? Are you suggesting that God listens harder when the prayer is in Latin? I don’t think so.

I’m glad to know about what will happen if I ever go to Rome to see the Holy Father. First, that will very likely never happen. I’m one of the two or three people in the U.S. who really doesn’t have any interest whatsoever in travelling outside of my own country. And second, if I did go to Rome, of course I would do what is proper at the Vatican. But I don’t live in Rome. I live in Illinois.

And if you’ll read my post, you’ll see that I’m not totally disregarding Latin and refusing to learn its history and relationship with the Catholic Church. In my post, I specficially stated that I respect the history of Latin and the Catholic Church. I have asked you this before and I’ll ask again–please do not make me into someone that I am not, and then criticize me for being a person that you have made up.

I am very willing to submit to the decrees of Rome and learn the Latin that is used in my Church. My own personal preferences must be put aside for the preferences of the Lord. I understand that.

IF you would read my post, you will see that I am not demanding that my Church do things MY way.

What I am requesting is that all of you who love Latin and get the colly-wobbles listening to it in Mass should **PRAY for the rest of us, that we would somehow receive a measure of the same love for the “heart language of the Church” that you already have. For some reason, we didn’t receive that “gift” of loving Latin. ** Tolerating it, yes. Respecting it, definitely. But loving it–

Actually, you can get Vatican Radio on the internet at www.radiovaticano.org

Latin is a beautiful language. It is the language of the Church. You don’t have to be a scholar to learn the prayers. Furthermore, praying in Latin is actually quite edifying because you are forcing yourself to concentrate on the words and you aren’t praying by rote.

No one is asking you to fall in love with Latin. I don’t think that was ever mentioned. However, the Church does ask that we make some effort to at least use it during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Latin is part of our common heritage as Catholics.

Perhaps you need to re-read both my posts and yours. Not once have I ever said that God only listens to Latin. You are the one who said that. Furthermore, Latin is the official language of the Church. Since that is the case, why not give it a try? You say that you took Latin some years back, why not put it into practice?

 

[steboyz]

The question is, how do you learn these songs if the church doesn’t teach them or make the words available? That’s my issue. It’s fine for the old folks who were around 50 years ago, but many of us have never heard this stuff before and are just lost.

The fact is very few Americans fifty years ago knew Latin.Even then it was considered a “dead language” as in most cases it still is.
When I was becoming an altar boy we were being taught phonetically. We had to memorize the the Mass like you memorize the lines of a play. Some boys got it and some did not.Most however passed the test(standing in front of a nun attempting to answer the priest lines)because they needed as many boys they could get.Those boys who had trouble were allowed to fail because they were so embarrassed they usually quit.
VIK

 

[japhy]

The fact is very few Americans fifty years ago knew Latin.

It’s really not a matter of “knowing Latin” as if you needed mastery and fluency. You simply need to know a few important prayers which are easy to learn with a minimal amount of effort. I strongly suggest, as a starting point, the Compendium to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which has an appendix of common prayers in Latin with their English translation.