Latin Songs In the English Mass.Why?

[brotherhrolf]

The fact is very few Americans fifty years ago knew Latin.Even then it was considered a “dead language” as in most cases it still is.
When I was becoming an altar boy we were being taught phonetically. We had to memorize the the Mass like you memorize the lines of a play. Some boys got it and some did not.Most however passed the test(standing in front of a nun attempting to answer the priest lines)because they needed as many boys they could get.Those boys who had trouble were allowed to fail because they were so embarrassed they usually quit.
VIK

Latin was and is in the anthropological sense a sacred language. This business of you had to speak Latin in order to participate in the Mass is simply hogwash. No, I had no idea way back when what Introibo ad Altare Dei meant. Gosh. Stupid fourth grade me with an eighth grade vocabulary. Introibo - Introit - Entrance. Ad - to. Altare Dei. The Altar of God. Nope, just learned it phonetically and didn’t have that eighth grade vocabulary in fourth grade. Ad Deum Qui Laetificat Juventutem Meam. To God who is the joy of my youth. Nope. Couldn’t tell that Ad Deum was To God. Qui (Latin, French, Spanish, Portuguese) who. Laetificat - joy (OK I’d have to look that up). Juventutem- can we say juvenille, i.e. youth. Meam - obviously my.

Pish, tosh! No we didn’t know what we were saying. Or did we? I wanted to take Latin in high school in 1965 and my folks forbade me. Oh, learn a language that will help you. Right. I can’t speak Spanish well but I can read it fluently. And guess what? Between Spanish and English - I can do a pretty good job of reading Latin.

Oh no! Latin is too hard! Nobody understood it! Which is why I tested in eigth grade at a college graduate level in vocabulary. Naw! We just memorized those Latin words.

 

[steboyz]

Thomasf

“We sang the lamb of God in latin yesterday. I have no idea what they were saying, because most people mumbled through it since they didn’t know the words either.”

Exactly thats what I mean.You cannot learn something unless someone from the parish prints out the words and hands them out.

This is the problem with a big organization, no communication.

the things that i describe JUST HAPPENED LIKE THAT. When I read that the church was changing the some of the prayers of the Mass to go back to the original language I thought that there would be an announcement.But nothing like that happened.
So they expect people to just pick this up without any idea what is going on! This has resulted in maybe the same people at our Mass attempting to sing the AD after about three months of the cantor singing the song.No one else is singing it.All the priest has to do or should have done is say from the pulpit "this is what we are going to do from now on"If they had shown people the words i am sure more people would sing it but they refuse to do it!
VIK

 

[brotherhrolf]

Thomasf

“We sang the lamb of God in latin yesterday. I have no idea what they were saying, because most people mumbled through it since they didn’t know the words either.”

Exactly thats what I mean.You cannot learn something unless someone from the parish prints out the words and hands them out.

This is the problem with a big organization, no communication.

the things that i describe JUST HAPPENED LIKE THAT. When I read that the church was changing the some of the prayers of the Mass to go back to the original language I thought that there would be an announcement.But nothing like that happened.
So they expect people to just pick this up without any idea what is going on! This has resulted in maybe the same people at our Mass attempting to sing the AD after about three months of the cantor singing the song.No one else is singing it.All the priest has to do or should have done is say from the pulpit "this is what we are going to do from now on"If they had shown people the words i am sure more people would sing it but they refuse to do it!
VIK

Come to my parish. Listen to my sons 23 and 26 belt out the Agnus Dei, Kyrie and Sanctus. Forty years ago the average Catholic parish sang the Kyrie, Gloria, Confiteor, Sanctus, Pater Noster and Agnus Dei in Latin well into the 70s. Maybe my cathedral parish is an exception but we have a whole buncha folks my age (56) or older who grew up with Latin. These are the very minimum chants that any Catholic should know. They are our heritage, our patrimony.

 

[steboyz]

Ok - pardon me if I sound like an impatient parent, but that may be how this is going to come across.

I’m going to assume that those who are complaining about this here are grown adults.

If you have an issue with not being provided the music and the words - why in the world are you complaining about it here on the internet, and not telling someone at your parish who can actually HELP you!!!

Call the parish office - ask to speak with the minister of music - tell them you would appreciate being given the music and words of the sung parts of the Mass (again, they are not “songs”) - and that the parishoners need to be helped through learning this.

Crabbing about it on the internet is not going to help you. If you want something, often times you actually have to ask for it from a source that actually has the ability to help you!

What a concept.

~Liza

Liza
calm down. Whats the use of having an internet site like this if you dont want people to use it? I have written a letter to my pastor
about problems that I have with the way the parish is run and guess what…no reply.
I was told that they want you to go to them.I am not that kind of a person. Most people dont like confrontation with authority.Besides if people are not singing they have to know there is a problem.VIk

 

[Sarabande]

There were many good points made on this thread. Here is what I see where part of the problem lies in terms of getting a Catholic people to use Latin after 40+ of disuse and in some respects, negligent disuse.

We want our parishes to begin implementing the Latin again to uphold our tradition and connection with our Catholic ancestors and, most importantly, because it is the official language of the Church, so it does make sense to continue using it. But many do not know how to implement it and to “teach” it. Some priests who were ordained during the time of Vatican II and afterwards basically put all Latin aside or were never exposed to it. And some will do the very minimum to “implement” it into their parishes again. Based on what I’ve read in past threads, some are apparently against doing it too. So, if your leader is opposed to it and/or is just rather ambivalent towards it, it can sometimes be very difficult to get it going in those parishes and/or dioceses.

Another reason is that those who actually are excited about re-introducing it more often into the mass, just don’t know how to do it well enough. (I don’t have the answers either on this - I think it depends on the congregation sometimes.) Some go overboard and do all the songs in and mass parts in Latin. Some may not go that far at first, but they don’t at least do one or two acclamations and/or songs in Latin every week. The other is that they don’t have the words written down for the people to follow along.

At my cathedral parish, we have booklets with the words in Latin on one (with the musical notations) and the English either on the other side or underneath of it. We do a NO mass in Latin twice a month. I was also part of the choir for many years and as a musician/singer, I was exposed to Latin a lot, as well as to other languages needed for singing. Those languages, especially Italian, helped me understand Latin. Plus, I had to learn the “German” way of pronouncing Latin along with the “Italian” way, etc. So my experience is different from most. Getting the Latin almost immediately would have been a given for me - even though I grew up in the 80s and 90s and the only Latin I ever experienced in church was the “Adeste Fideles” and “Hail Holy Queen” (which we sometimes sang in Latin). BUT I also realize that for others, without the experience I had, it can be a little harder - although definitely not impossible.

When I taught music to children from 3-14 at a Catholic school, I racked my brains at first as to how I was going to teach the Latin mass parts and some hymns to them. I didn’t want it to be “heady”, but I also believed it was important for our next generation to have some exposure to it, so I was determined. I was 24 and ready to take it on despite the pastor telling me that it was almost a lost cause. The pastor from a very little, farming community at this parish I attended about 3 1/2 hour out of the city where I taught, actually got the parishioners of the simple, farming community to chant the Agnus Dei and the Salve Regina with full voice and decent pronunciation. He was young, ecstatic and engaging. I asked him after mass how he did it. A simple answer. Start small with one chant - namely ‘Agnus Dei’. Then do it every week. Then continue to add one by one. It would take a while, but it will eventually happen.

I followed the advice. Although I was never able to use it during mass with my students (wasn’t allowed) , I got them to learn and understand the Sanctus, Mortem Tuuam, and Agnus Dei - even the Pater Noster. But it was weekly review. It took two years. But I also stopped teaching at the end of those two years to get married. Guess who were singing those acclamations loud and clear at our wedding? My students, the choir, the priest, my husband and I and even some of the guests who remembered it since we put the words in the program. We didn’t have the entire mass in Latin, but felt it was important to have and use in the music at least.

So basically, if you don’t have the people optimistic and sincerely excited about implementing it and teaching it, it is a harder uphill achievement. And even if you do have those kinds of people, without implementing it in the right way, can also discourage the people from wanting to learn it.

 

[idrum677]

When I taught music to children from 3-14 at a Catholic school, I racked my brains at first as to how I was going to teach the Latin mass parts and some hymns to them. I didn’t want it to be “heady”, but I also believed it was important for our next generation to have some exposure to it, so I was determined. I was 24 and ready to take it on despite the pastor telling me that it was almost a lost cause. The pastor from a very little, farming community at this parish I attended about 3 1/2 hour out of the city where I taught, actually got the parishioners of the simple, farming community to chant the Agnus Dei and the Salve Regina with full voice and decent pronunciation. He was young, ecstatic and engaging. I asked him after mass how he did it. A simple answer. Start small with one chant - namely ‘Agnus Dei’. Then do it every week. Then continue to add one by one. It would take a while, but it will eventually happen.

I followed the advice. Although I was never able to use it during mass with my students (wasn’t allowed) , I got them to learn and understand the Sanctus, Mortem Tuuam, and Agnus Dei - even the Pater Noster. But it was weekly review. It took two years. But I also stopped teaching at the end of those two years to get married. Guess who were singing those acclamations loud and clear at our wedding? My students, the choir, the priest, my husband and I and even some of the guests who remembered it since we put the words in the program. We didn’t have the entire mass in Latin, but felt it was important to have and use in the music at least.

You’re right on with that.

Kids are like sponges with language and they pick it up easier that adults. At first its rote, but if used enough they begin to understand the meaning.

I help with the childrens choir and our kids have sung a few pieces in Latin- including my 5 y/o daughter. She can recognize Latin when she hears it, even if she doesn’t understand it all yet.

Most of these children’s parents (including me) grew up with the NO Mass. Our children, however, seem to enjoy learning the latin chants and songs because they are learning somthing that few people know.

As far as the OP is concerned, I don’t think latin is going away. Pray that you will be open to it and not spend your time at mass fuming on in which language they are singing the acclamations.

 

[lizaanne]

Liza
calm down. Whats the use of having an internet site like this if you dont want people to use it?

I love it that people use this site - I use it all the time. But if you only crab about something and take no action, then what’s the point?

I have written a letter to my pastor
about problems that I have with the way the parish is run and guess what…no reply.

Then write your Bishop.

I was told that they want you to go to them.I am not that kind of a person. Most people dont like confrontation with authority.Besides if people are not singing they have to know there is a problem.VIk

Then what do you expect to gain by just complaining to a bunch of strangers? If you are not willing to go out of your comfort zone to resolve an issue you clearly find important enough to join a Catholic forum and speak up about, then you will only get what you don’t ask for.

You can not assume that “they have to know there is a problem” just because no one is singing. YOU are the parishoner - if YOU have an issue about it speak up!!! And if they didn’t hear you the first time - speak up again!

I don’t like confrontation either - but if I feel strongly enough about something that I feel isn’t right - especially when it comes to my Faith - you are darn right I’m going to go out of my own comfort zone and speak up about it. Otherwise I will just shut up and put up - because complaining to a bunch of people who can’t make one bit of difference to the situation makes no sense and is a complete waste of everyone’s time.

~Liza

 

[Brendan]

Liza
calm down. Whats the use of having an internet site like this if you dont want people to use it? I have written a letter to my pastor
about problems that I have with the way the parish is run and guess what…no reply.
I was told that they want you to go to them.I am not that kind of a person. Most people dont like confrontation with authority.Besides if people are not singing they have to know there is a problem.VIk

How about being more proactive.

You recognized a problem, that Latin hymns were being sung and the people do not know the words.

OK, then offer a solution to the pastor.

Offer to create a song sheet with the words, and ask if it would be possible to use the parish copier to make copies for distrubution at Mass?

I posted links to the words and music, so you’re over half way there already.

There, problem solved

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, the Holy Father has pretty much addressed the issues raised by the OP. In Sacramentum Caritatis, Pope Benedict XVI writes:

The Latin language

1. None of the above observations should cast doubt upon the importance of such large-scale liturgies. I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, (182) that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers (183) of the Church’s tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. (184)

One certainly cannot fault the pastor of the OP for making some sort of effort to heed the Holy Father. It’s not like Pope Benedict is asking us to do something new. It is something that should have been done in the first place.

 

[Chatter163]

adoremus.org/VeterumSapientia.html

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Why? Not only is there no church law prohibiting the use of Latin (or any other language) hymns in the English Mass, but as others have pointed out, Vatican II mandates the continuing use of Latin in at least some parts of the Mass.

If you don’t know the words, just listen.

Actually the use varies parish by parish (as it should be). Some local parishes prefer more latin mixed in, while many do not see it a useful addition, but you can still have a good mass without latin being used.

 

[Brendan]

Actually the use varies parish by parish (as it should be). Some local parishes prefer more latin mixed in, while many do not see it a useful addition, but you can still have a good mass without latin being used.

But a pastor is still obligated to educate his faithful so that they can make their responses in Latin.

Have you found really parishes so well educated in the Latin responses that they do not find practice to be useful?

 

[theistgal]

I am sorry, but I disagree. I learned the words to the Agnus Dei at age 8, in Latin, by ear. I am now 14. It is not impossible, you just need to listen to the words and not be frustrated that they are singing something that is different from what you know. You need to accept change, especially change for the better.

That’s great, but I’m actually going to step in for the defense here. My husband is a cantor and a very good one, but he is the first to acknowledge that he needs the written sheet music in front of him in order to keep up with what he’s singing - even if it’s in English and even if he’s sung it a thousand times. Not everyone is as good as you are about learning things by ear.

 

[Jakub]

Hello Mrs P…

james

 

[Phemie]

That’s great, but I’m actually going to step in for the defense here. My husband is a cantor and a very good one, but he is the first to acknowledge that he needs the written sheet music in front of him in order to keep up with what he’s singing - even if it’s in English and even if he’s sung it a thousand times. Not everyone is as good as you are about learning things by ear.

That may well be so, but the choir in my home parish sang in Latin all the time when I was growing up but, other than the organist, I know that only one or two knew how to read music. The same can be said with the choir that is in that parish now. Most are my age or older and the ones I know personally never took a music lesson in their life – music not having been taught in school and limited to families who could afford it.

 

[HelenRose]

That’s the point. If people don’t know them, and there are plenty of catholics who don’t know them after almost 40 years of the NO mass, how can they sing them? We don’t have these songs in our song books either. No instruction is given, they will just add these songs in randomly without giving instruction.

They are not that difficult to learn. The choir director should, however, prepare a congregation before Mass so that the congregation is able to respond.

 

[theistgal]

Hello Mrs P…

james

:blushing:

 

[Mamselle_Duroc]

That’s great, but I’m actually going to step in for the defense here. My husband is a cantor and a very good one, but he is the first to acknowledge that he needs the written sheet music in front of him in order to keep up with what he’s singing - even if it’s in English and even if he’s sung it a thousand times. Not everyone is as good as you are about learning things by ear.

Having cantored before in the past, I understand this line of thought. I always liked to have the music in front of me, no matter how well I knew the piece. Since I was leading the singing, I wanted to make sure I got everything right. I couldn’t afford to have a blank.

But as far as singing in the congregation goes, I’m fine with learning by ear, though I wouldn’t say I’m particularly good with it. If I mess up some of the words, it really doesn’t matter, unlike with cantoring. Not that I don’t appreciate having the words and music! Obviously, that makes it easier. But I don’t find it necessary.

 

[Sarabande]

Having cantored before in the past, I understand this line of thought. I always liked to have the music in front of me, no matter how well I knew the piece. Since I was leading the singing, I wanted to make sure I got everything right. I couldn’t afford to have a blank.

That’s true. Although I know a lot of the music and the words by heart, as a cantor I always have the music in my hand. Also, one of the things I’ve learned in my musical training is that whenever you sing sacred music - whether in a concert such as a sacred oratorio, orchestrated mass, sacred music recital or just during an actual mass, etc. you should always have your music with you. This is because “performing” sacred music, isn’t supposed to be a “performance”, per say. So, even though I may have the music memorized, I will still hold my music in my hand and glance down if in a concert, or look at it almost entirely as a cantor during mass.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Way back in the Dark Ages before V II we learned Latin by ear. The entire school would meet in the cafeteria. (This started in first grade). Sister would play the melody on the upright piano. We also had pronunciation drills. I am fairly adept at learning by ear. The downside of this is that I cannot sight read. So, in essence, I really learned my part by ear.

We didn’t have any problem teaching our congregation the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. I wish they had gone on and taught the Pater Noster. We were sucessfull because so many of us baby boomers went to Catholic school and learned the Mass parts then. It was just a matter of refreshing memories.