Latin vs vernacular mass

[curlycool89]

Obviously I’m talking about those who already sing the Ordinary of the Mass in English. Why should they have to settle for speaking parts of the Mass which they would normally sing when there are plenty of Latin settings? To opt for some Latin would be nothing less than Vatican II intended - it’s not beyond the average parish choir or congregation to sing the chants contained in Jubilate Deo which Pope Paul VI had hoped would provide a minimum repertoire for Catholics across the globe. Whether a parish is “conservative” or “liberal” is not really the issue - Latin is not (or shouldn’t be regarded as) an elitist language of the liturgy; it is within everyone’s reach & it is the Church’s desire that all Catholics should at least get a taste for it. That is why now is an opportune time to introduce some Latin chants.

Why should they have to settle for Latin when they could have English?

I know you don’t like the sound of that, but I put it here just to add some perspective. What is considered “option B” would differ according to who you are and is very subjective. Many church-going Catholics would probably prefer spoken English to anything Latin.

In a couple parishes I’ve been to the Kyrie is already sung [although most people probably don’t know it’s pronounced el-eh-e-son (that’s a hard e in the middle there), not el-eh-son]. It’s not that odd to here the words “Agnus Dei”, “miserere nobis”, and “dona nobis pacem” substituted into the English version already either (where I am at least). The “Amen” is conveniently enough already perfect Latin

I wouldn’t want the longer prayers to be in Latin though because I’d just be robotically saying it without much actual meaning. Especially for the Creed because just saying it without knowing what you’re saying defeats the whole purpose (it’s saying what we actually believe). Reading a bunch of words in a language out loud for many people just means they’re following along with no concept of what they’re actually saying. For me at least, hearing one of those in another language is just a bunch of words; it has no meaning to me. When people are speaking in the mass they need to mean what they say, and I know that I can’t mean what I say unless I know what I’m saying.

It won’t really matter that much anyways because I’ve hardly ever seen the Our Father sung and I’ve never seen the creed sung, so those 2 in all likelihood will continue to be spoken in English. And I’ve heard so many settings for the Gloria that I have no doubt that in a few years we’ll have more than enough settings for the new english.

 

[OraLabora]

As I see it, there’s no reason why the average parish choir cannot introduce Gregorian chant (in Latin) to the liturgy - whether it be the E.F. or O.F… There are so many great resources out there now.

I agree as far as the Kyriale goes if one takes some of the simpler ones. I sing in a schola that does Gregorian Chant exclusively, and if one used the Graduale Romanum correctly I’m afraid it would be out of reach of most parish choirs. In particular the graduals and offertories are far to complex for parish choirs, and some of the Introits and communion hymns as well.

However the Graduale Simplex is one option, it is probably much easier for small parish choirs although there’s more psalmody and that isn’t without its challenges.

Gregorian Chant when well done is very beautiful but I have also heard it hacked up mercilessly and that’s no better than mis-fitting English hymns. May as well have a Mass with no music if that’s the case.

 

[NPC]

Why should they have to settle for Latin when they could have English?

I know you don’t like the sound of that, but I put it here just to add some perspective

And you’re most welcome to add some perspective.

It’s not a case of having to settle for Latin. I’m talking specifically about sung Masses - and in a year or so, none of the current English settings will be useable (apart from the few which may be adapted). Those who wish to omit the Mass parts while they await a repertoire of new English settings may do so (even though it is recommended that such parts be sung on Sundays); those who wish to continue singing the parts have the option of using Latin to take them through the transitional period.

As I see it, one could “kill two birds with one stone” by introducing Latin chants - firstly, as I’ve said, to cover and perhaps ease the transition in the absence of well-established English settings; secondly, to encourage fidelity to the Church’s teaching that chant should have pride of place & that the faithful should be able to sing at least some of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin.

From the GIRM:

1. Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of the people and abilities of each liturgical assembly. Although it is not always necessary (e.g., in weekday Masses) to sing all the texts that are of themselves meant to be sung, every care should be taken that singing by the ministers and the people is not absent in celebrations that occur on Sundays and on holy days of obligation.

In the choosing of the parts actually to be sung, however, preference should be given to those that are of greater importance and especially to those to be sung by the priest or the deacon or the lector, with the people responding, or by the priest and people together.

1. All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.

Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.

Also, I would also make it clear that while I personally am in favour of the greater use of Latin in the sacred liturgy, I am most certainly not against the use of English Mass settings! There are many worthy settings out there - the most common one here in Ireland is a very simple setting by Seoirse Bodley: composed around 1970, it is a firm favourite & is easily singable. If similar settings come out to match the new translations, I certainly won’t turn my nose up at them.

 

[NPC]

I agree as far as the Kyriale goes if one takes some of the simpler ones. I sing in a schola that does Gregorian Chant exclusively, and if one used the Graduale Romanum correctly I’m afraid it would be out of reach of most parish choirs. In particular the graduals and offertories are far to complex for parish choirs, and some of the Introits and communion hymns as well.

Absolutely. It would be nigh on impossible to have a voluntary church choir learn new music from the Graduale week after week - even the Introit alone would take a lot of work. No, I’m talking about starting out small - the GIRM suggests that chants with simple melodies should be used. For example, the Kyrie XVI (Primitiva) is so simple it could be learnt in minutes. Sanctus XVIII and Agnus Dei XVIII are similarly do-able…Plus, for most people who learnt any bit of chant while they were at school, it was probably Mass VIII (de Angelis)! As I said in a previous post, my choir has just learnt Kyrie XVI - it only took a few minutes, and we will use it throughout Lent - its simplicity befits the tone of the season too.

 

[OraLabora]

Absolutely. It would be nigh on impossible to have a voluntary church choir learn new music from the Graduale week after week - even the Introit alone would take a lot of work. No, I’m talking about starting out small - the GIRM suggests that chants with simple melodies should be used. For example, the Kyrie XVI (Primitiva) is so simple it could be learnt in minutes. Sanctus XVIII and Agnus Dei XVIII are similarly do-able…Plus, for most people who learnt any bit of chant while they were at school, it was probably Mass VIII (de Angelis)! As I said in a previous post, my choir has just learnt Kyrie XVI - it only took a few minutes, and we will use it throughout Lent - its simplicity befits the tone of the season too.

Those are all doable. We often do de Angelis if we’re chanting at a Mass where we expect the faithful will be able to participate. For the Kyrie though we use Orbis Factor (XIb) in Ordinary Time and XVIIc for Advent and Lent, and de Angelis for Easter time.

But we also do Introits, offertories and communion hymns, and once in a while we tackle a gradual but for the most part we do the responsorial psalm chanted in French.

We also do the odd concert and for that we will often do hymns for the Divine Office, and chants from Cantus Selecti for various seasons (such as Rorate Caeli de Super).

We’ve been asked by the Archbishop to do Lauds for Holy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday also. Antiphons in Latin but psalmody in French.

 

[ProVobis]

And I’ve heard so many settings for the Gloria that I have no doubt that in a few years we’ll have more than enough settings for the new english.

What version of English would that be now, V85.2?

No seriously, has anyone counted the versions of the English Pater Noster there have been throughout Old English, Middle English, and Modern English? I think I remember there being something like at least 20. All those chants now extinct.

 

[OraLabora]

What version of English would that be now, V85.2?

No seriously, has anyone counted the versions of the English Pater Noster there have been throughout Old English, Middle English, and Modern English? I think I remember there being something like at least 20. All those chants now extinct.

A bit OT but a couple of years ago my son was playing viola in a concert being given in a United Church (the Canadian version). While waiting for the concert to begin I picked up their prayer book and started to flip through it and I stumbled upon the many versions of the Our Father that it contained. The one that was so funny (and sad at the same time) that I nearly p’d my pants, started off “Our Father and Mother…”

 

[ProVobis]

The one that was so funny (and sad at the same time) that I nearly p’d my pants, started off “Our Father and Mother…”

thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

 

[eichenb2]

The bottom line is that, in my opinion, those who wanted (and want) to fundamentally refine the CC along the modernist, moral relativist, purely sentimental, and anti-catholic intellectual legacy lines are failing. The tide has turned. The only religious orders that are growing are traditional one; habits and all. A much higher proportion of priests are taking thier commitment to the magisterial teaching of the CC seriously. Many more parishoners are seeking to embrace the CC fully and this includes her moral teaching, liturgical traditions, and intellectual heritage. Hence, the dramatic increase in EF masses. In my opinion, this is an authentic renewal movement. Thankfully, we can say goodbye to the clown masses and liturgical dance (in the US). Good riddance !!!

 

[Cat]

You want other perspectives?

In a few weeks, I’ll celebrate my 6th year as a Catholic. I converted out of the Evangelical Protestant churches.

After six years on these forums, and six years in Holy Mother Church, I still don’t like Latin or chant. I really don’t like it. Really, really don’t like it.

I bought a few chant albums and played them. Can’t stand them. I really should just leave them in the Church and let someone take them who likes that stuff.

We do the occasional Latin song (during Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament), and I sing the English softly. I have no luck trying to translate Latin or any language. I see no beauty in a system of language–language is a mere tool to communicate. IMO, if I can’t understand it, it’s just gibberish. Mind–I said IMO. I respect those of you who think that a certain language is beautiful. I just can’t get that. I respect that Latin is the Official Language of the Church and if the Mass goes Latin, I will ask the Lord to give me the strength to endure it and maybe even learn to like it a little. But IMO, if the enjoyment hasn’t happened after 6 years, it’s not looking good for becoming a Latin fan. But the Lord does work miracles. And I know it’s not all about me and my preferences. As long as Jesus is Truly Present in the Mass, I will be glad to serve at Mass, even if I don’t understand anything that’s going on and find the music unpleasant.

At last night’s Mass during Communion, we sang a Fanny Crosby song (In the Cross), a song that I have not sung since leaving the Evangelical church. Beautiful words, beautiful singable melody.

I lost it and cried. It was so beautiful. All the beauty of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament was communicated to me in that song, written by a blind lady who probably never entered a Catholic Church in her life.

You can all go ahead and have fun deriding “modern” music and blasting the Protestant hymns to kingdom come, but to me and I’m guessing many others, they are beautiful hymns, especially in the setting of the Mass. IMO, just as the Mass helps make us better Christians, the Mass purifies music, no matter what kind of music it is.

I personally do not think that we will ever see Latin replace English in the Mass in the United States. I think we might see a few phrases here and there, but I don’t think we’ll see a general use of Latin and chant. I think you’re all kidding yourselves. We’ll see. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. And if you’re wrong, you’re wrong. The Mass is still the Mass–that’s the main thing.

 

[eichenb2]

You want other perspectives?

In a few weeks, I’ll celebrate my 6th year as a Catholic. I converted out of the Evangelical Protestant churches.

After six years on these forums, and six years in Holy Mother Church, I still don’t like Latin or chant. I really don’t like it. Really, really don’t like it.

I bought a few chant albums and played them. Can’t stand them. I really should just leave them in the Church and let someone take them who likes that stuff.

We do the occasional Latin song (during Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament), and I sing the English softly. I have no luck trying to translate Latin or any language. I see no beauty in a system of language–language is a mere tool to communicate. IMO, if I can’t understand it, it’s just gibberish. Mind–I said IMO. I respect those of you who think that a certain language is beautiful. I just can’t get that. I respect that Latin is the Official Language of the Church and if the Mass goes Latin, I will ask the Lord to give me the strength to endure it and maybe even learn to like it a little. But IMO, if the enjoyment hasn’t happened after 6 years, it’s not looking good for becoming a Latin fan. But the Lord does work miracles. And I know it’s not all about me and my preferences. As long as Jesus is Truly Present in the Mass, I will be glad to serve at Mass, even if I don’t understand anything that’s going on and find the music unpleasant.

At last night’s Mass during Communion, we sang a Fanny Crosby song (In the Cross), a song that I have not sung since leaving the Evangelical church. Beautiful words, beautiful singable melody.

I lost it and cried. It was so beautiful. All the beauty of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament was communicated to me in that song, written by a blind lady who probably never entered a Catholic Church in her life.

You can all go ahead and have fun deriding “modern” music and blasting the Protestant hymns to kingdom come, but to me and I’m guessing many others, they are beautiful hymns, especially in the setting of the Mass. IMO, just as the Mass helps make us better Christians, the Mass purifies music, no matter what kind of music it is.

I personally do not think that we will ever see Latin replace English in the Mass in the United States. I think we might see a few phrases here and there, but I don’t think we’ll see a general use of Latin and chant. I think you’re all kidding yourselves. We’ll see. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. And if you’re wrong, you’re wrong. The Mass is still the Mass–that’s the main thing.

I guess if emotion is the largest factor, then this perspective is reasonable. For me, I am about Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. I believe that comparing a Fanny Crosby (who?) song to a sung mass by Michael Haydn is no comparison.

 

[JRKH]

You want other perspectives?

In a few weeks, I’ll celebrate my 6th year as a Catholic. I converted out of the Evangelical Protestant churches.

After six years on these forums, and six years in Holy Mother Church, I still don’t like Latin or chant. I really don’t like it. Really, really don’t like it.

I bought a few chant albums and played them. Can’t stand them. I really should just leave them in the Church and let someone take them who likes that stuff.

We do the occasional Latin song (during Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament), and I sing the English softly. I have no luck trying to translate Latin or any language. I see no beauty in a system of language–language is a mere tool to communicate. IMO, if I can’t understand it, it’s just gibberish. Mind–I said IMO. I respect those of you who think that a certain language is beautiful. I just can’t get that. I respect that Latin is the Official Language of the Church and if the Mass goes Latin, I will ask the Lord to give me the strength to endure it and maybe even learn to like it a little. But IMO, if the enjoyment hasn’t happened after 6 years, it’s not looking good for becoming a Latin fan. But the Lord does work miracles. And I know it’s not all about me and my preferences. As long as Jesus is Truly Present in the Mass, I will be glad to serve at Mass, even if I don’t understand anything that’s going on and find the music unpleasant.

At last night’s Mass during Communion, we sang a Fanny Crosby song (In the Cross), a song that I have not sung since leaving the Evangelical church. Beautiful words, beautiful singable melody.

I lost it and cried. It was so beautiful. All the beauty of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament was communicated to me in that song, written by a blind lady who probably never entered a Catholic Church in her life.

You can all go ahead and have fun deriding “modern” music and blasting the Protestant hymns to kingdom come, but to me and I’m guessing many others, they are beautiful hymns, especially in the setting of the Mass. IMO, just as the Mass helps make us better Christians, the Mass purifies music, no matter what kind of music it is.

I personally do not think that we will ever see Latin replace English in the Mass in the United States. I think we might see a few phrases here and there, but I don’t think we’ll see a general use of Latin and chant. I think you’re all kidding yourselves. We’ll see. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. And if you’re wrong, you’re wrong. The Mass is still the Mass–that’s the main thing.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. It is nice to hear that you have explored the more traditional side of the liturgy and made a determination that you prefer the newer forms in the vernacular.

But - would you impose your preverences on everyone, or would you say that both forms should be avialable so that each may do as you have and choose?

I suspect you would not based on your final comment. And that is the best position to take. Let each form, OF and EF, co-exist. Like you said - The mass is still the mass.

Peace
James

 

[eichenb2]

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint. It is nice to hear that you have explored the more traditional side of the liturgy and made a determination that you prefer the newer forms in the vernacular.

But - would you impose your preverences on everyone, or would you say that both forms should be avialable so that each may do as you have and choose?

I suspect you would not based on your final comment. And that is the best position to take. Let each form, OF and EF, co-exist. Like you said - The mass is still the mass.

Peace
James

Any Form or Rite should be celebrated with appropriate reverence, solemnity, and dignity. So, clown masses are not an option. Catholics are not protestants and Jesus is NOT a get out of hell free card. The Mass should be prayed.

 

[JRKH]

Any Form or Rite should be celebrated with appropriate reverence, solemnity, and dignity. So, clown masses are not an option. Catholics are not protestants and Jesus is NOT a get out of hell free card. The Mass should be prayed.

I completely agree with you here. Did I give the impression I was n favor of liturgical abuses?

Peace
James

 

[eichenb2]

I completely agree with you here. Did I give the impression I was n favor of liturgical abuses?

Peace
James

No. I apologize if my post left that impression.

 

[ProVobis]

I personally do not think that we will ever see Latin replace English in the Mass in the United States.

The Latin has already outlasted the original English though.

 

[Cristiano]

Any Form or Rite should be celebrated with appropriate reverence, solemnity, and dignity. So, clown masses are not an option. Catholics are not protestants and Jesus is NOT a get out of hell free card. The Mass should be prayed.

Jesus is a get of of hell free card! Thanks be to God for that.

 

[eichenb2]

Jesus is a get of of hell free card! Thanks be to God for that.

BIBLE SAYS FAITH AND WORKS NEEDED FOR SALVATION
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FAWORKS.htm

 

[eichenb2]

Jesus is a get of of hell free card! Thanks be to God for that.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Jesus is NOT a get out of hell free card!

“Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ” - Saint Jerome

 

[Cristiano]

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

Jesus is NOT a get out of hell free card!

“Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ” - Saint Jerome

Are you saying that we earn heaven? Jesus is a “get of of hell” free card, the only one available. Without him we have no justification. Grace is free, it is a gift, we only have to accept it. The people that are in your quote are exactly the ones that thought that they could earn heaven. The works that Catholics do are simply a way to show that we accept God’s free and unconditional gift of salvation. This article is a good insight on the concept “free card out of hell” as justification and works as acceptance of a gift.