Law professors from 11 countries urge repeal of ban on crucifixes

[Soutane]

Law professors from 11 countries urge repeal of ban on crucifixes
Rome, Italy, May 26, 2010 / 01:01 am (CNA).- Thirty-seven law professors from countries around the globe have written to the European Court of Human Rights, urging them to overturn a ruling that banned crucifixes from Italian classrooms.

In their comments to the court, professors from 11 countries throughout the world cautioned that failing to overturn the ruling could incite a hostile relationship between the government and religion in Europe and could even threaten to unravel the “tapestry” of European civilization, according to the Beckett Fund for Religious Liberty.

In November of last year, the court ruled in favor of local mother Soile Lautsi’s case to remove religious symbols, including crucifixes, from public schools in Italy to ensure her children’s right to a secular education.

On March 2 of this year, the European Court accepted an appeal from the Italian government, thereby temporarily allowing crucifixes to remain in classrooms throughout the country while the appeal is pending. The Grand Chamber of the Court, located in Strasbourg, France, will hold a hearing in the case on June 30.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/law-professors-from-11-countries-urge-repeal-of-ban-on-crucifixes/

 

[kingal86]

I don’t get how the European Court of Human Rights can ban crucifixes from Italian school classrooms, if in England state primary schools unaffiliated with religious groups are legally required to have worship (usually Christian) in assembly.

I don’t see the consistency. I’m not particularly troubled by either (I liked the hymns at school, and that’s where I learnt things like the Lord’s Prayer), but surely religious assemblies could be argued to conflict more with a secular education than just having crucifixes on a wall? I’ve never heard of any judgement about religion and schools in Britain.

 

[GraceSofia]

I don’t see the consistency. I’m not particularly troubled by either (I liked the hymns at school, and that’s where I learnt things like the Lord’s Prayer), but surely religious assemblies could be argued to conflict more with a secular education than just having crucifixes on a wall? I’ve never heard of any judgement about religion and schools in Britain.

I guess nobody has filed a complaint or a case --yet.

 

[Soutane]

If you’re part of the EU you’re next or maybe they’re just afraid of Muslim reaction at enforced secularization-altho I suppose most Muslims go to private schools there?You MUST have some at public schools there are they to be denied part of their 5 times daily prayer schedule?Watch out if they are.I’ve been urging Catholic and non-Catholic Christians to push back at the secular wolf at the door but Muslims push back HARD.

 

[Brickmaker]

If you’re part of the EU you’re next or maybe they’re just afraid of Muslim reaction at enforced secularization.

What has this got to do with the EU?

 

[Kaninchen]

I don’t get how the European Court of Human Rights can ban crucifixes from Italian school classrooms,

It’s funny that, no matter how many times Europeans point it out that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, there will always be American posters who will ramble on about the naughtiness of the EU in banning crucifixes.

 

[Soutane]

Canadian not American dear.

 

[Kaninchen]

Canadian not American dear.

Rephrased:

It’s funny that, no matter how many times Europeans point it out that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, there will always be American posters (and even the odd Canadian who hasn’t the faintest idea either) who will ramble on about the naughtiness of the EU in banning crucifixes.

 

[Soutane]

If I used a misnomer I apologise but you’re splitting hairs,no?“European Court” signifies that this court has power in European countries-sort of a one world government sort of thing?In other words your sovereignty is out the window when this "Court"can dictate the manner in which you “decorate” your schools.Eu Shmee-u-you’ve lost your currencies and your sovereignty AND your freedom.How’s the Euro doing these days?I think we’ll eat Greek tonight

 

[Soutane]

Rephrased:

It’s funny that, no matter how many times Europeans point it out that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, there will always be American posters (and even the odd Canadian who hasn’t the faintest idea either) who will ramble on about the naughtiness of the EU in banning crucifixes.

I thought you had me on “ignore”.

 

[Kaninchen]

If I used a misnomer I apologise but you’re splitting hairs,no?“European Court” signifies that this court has power in European countries-sort of a one world government sort of thing?In other words your sovereignty is out the window when this "Court"can dictate the manner in which you “decorate” your schools.Eu Shmee-u-you’ve lost your currencies and your sovereignty AND your freedom.How’s the Euro doing these days?I think we’ll eat Greek tonight

I do have to admit that I’m impressed with the imaginative leeway that not having the slightest idea of what you’re talking about provides.

 

[Brickmaker]

If I used a misnomer I apologise but you’re splitting hairs,no?“European Court” signifies that this court has power in European countries-sort of a one world government sort of thing?

Nope, it doesn’t.

Better to stay silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and confirm it.

 

[Dale_M]

It’s funny that, no matter how many times Europeans point it out that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU, there will always be American posters who will ramble on about the naughtiness of the EU in banning crucifixes.

You are right, however, that most folks on this side of the Atlantic have trouble distinguishing between the different international organizations in Europe and what their powers are:

As near as I can tell, the European Court of Human Rights dates from around 1950, but didn’t become permanent until 1998. According to the Wikipedia article: “It is the role of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe to supervise the execution of Court judgments. This body cannot force states to comply, and the ultimate sanction for non-compliance is expulsion from the Council of Europe.”

So what is the Council of Europe? It too, is not part of the EU. It dates from around 1949, has 47 member states (the EU has 27), and is based in Strasbourg, France. Again, quoting Wikipedia: “While the member states of the European Union transfer national legislative and executive powers to the European Commission and the European Parliament in specific areas under European Community law, Council of Europe member states maintain their sovereignty but commit themselves through conventions (i.e. public international law) and co-operate on the basis of common values and common political decisions. Those conventions and decisions are developed by the member states working together at the Council of Europe, whereas secondary European Community law is set by the organs of the European Union.”

The Council of Europe shouldn’t be confused with the Council of the European Union (which is in Brussels, Belgium). And the European Parliament (part of the EU) shouldn’t be confused with the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (part of the Council of Europe).

That said, if the Council of Europe preserves the sovereignty of the nation members, and the ECHR depends on the Council of Europe for enforcement, couldn’t Italy refuse to recognize the ruling? Would Italy actually be expelled? What other sanctions could be employed?

Someone please help out this confused American.

 

[Kaninchen]

erm… yes, but Soutane is Canadian.

I’ve dealt with that.

That said, if the Council of Europe preserves the sovereignty of the nation members, and the ECHR depends on the Council of Europe for enforcement, couldn’t Italy refuse to recognize the ruling? Would Italy actually be expelled? What other sanctions could be employed?

Someone please help out this confused American.

The Court has something of a history of avoiding crisis but, in the end, it’s diplomacy that counts.

 

[Soutane]

It’s REALLY avoiding crisis in this instance isn’t it.Trampling on the sovereignty of a nation by telling them they CAN’T have crucifixes in their classroom.
By the by ,I’m getting a little sick of the ad hominum attacks and I don’t want to tattle so I advise moderation in your responses.Attack the arguement not the person-there are penalties for this sort of thing.

 

[KyivAndrew]

IEu Shmee-u-you’ve lost your currencies and your sovereignty AND your freedom.How’s the Euro doing these days?I think we’ll eat Greek tonight

Just for clarification, the Brits do not have the Euro as their currency, but the pound. In Britain I assume one will find Europhiles (LibDems) and Europhobes (________?) alike (though the Court of course is a separate issue).

Now back to eating Greek. Some of them do indeed have the best restaurants in Canada, imho.

 

[Soutane]

Just for clarification, the Brits do not have the Euro as their currency, but the pound. In Britain I assume one will find Europhiles (LibDems) and Europhobes (________?) alike (though the Court of course is a separate issue).

Now back to eating Greek. Some of them do indeed have the best restaurants in Canada, imho.

On the Danforth!

 

[Spirithound]

Nope, it doesn’t.

Better to stay silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and confirm it.

Or perhaps one opens one’s mouth in hopes of being enlightened by the more knowledgeable.

 

[Soutane]

Or perhaps one opens one’s mouth in hopes of being enlightened by the more knowledgeable.

Thanks Bubba

 

[GraceSofia]

That said, if the Council of Europe preserves the sovereignty of the nation members, and the ECHR depends on the Council of Europe for enforcement, couldn’t Italy refuse to recognize the ruling? Would Italy actually be expelled? What other sanctions could be employed?

Turkey is notorious for not abiding by rulings. So, no, nobody is going to invade Italy to make them take their crucifixes down. Given that after the ruling, the mayors in numerous Italian towns put up MORE crucifixes, I would guess the Italians would and could just ignore the ruling. Greece also has indicated that it would ignore such a ruling. However, there is still some seriousness to these sorts of rulings because they add to the general anti-Christian atmosphere in Europe and the attempt to marginalise Christians and push them out of the public square.

Alice von Hildebrand says it well: “Authentic culture can only be resurrected by remembering that man is not an animal with a remarkably developed brain but a person made in God’s image and likeness. True culture can only blossom in a world steeped in reverence and a consciousness of man’s spiritual dignity.”

assembly.coe.int/Documents/AdoptedText/TA04/ERES1381.htm

1. In its Resolution 1268 (2002) on implementation of decisions of the European Court of Human Rights, the Parliamentary Assembly, considering the high number of decisions against Turkey that had not, at that time, been implemented, instructed its Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights to confer with the national delegation of Turkey and with the Government of Turkey and to report to it on the progress made.

/assembly.coe.int/Documents/AdoptedText/TA04/ERES1381.htm

iv. to take all the necessary measures to allow the opening of a Greek secondary school in the northern part of Cyprus (case of Cyprus versus Turkey);

(That is from 2004— note there is still no secondary school for Greek Cypriots in the Turkish-occupied areas).

What means are available to the Committee of Ministers to exert pressure on a State that does not want to execute a judgment?

The Committee of Ministers is a political organ and, as such, it can bring its weight to bear on the State concerned to execute the Court’s judgment, including through the use of the heavy political sanctions provided for by the Statute of the Council of Europe.
Fortunately, in practice, the supervision of the execution of the Court’s judgments is essentially – and successfully – based on constructive and co-operative dialogue between states

.