"Lay parish pastoral associates"

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Sure said:
That’s what I’m getting at. What else would they do that would not be done by one of the other usual parish workers? It would seem that the only thing that they would do that could not be done by an administrator or coordinator would be counseling.
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I can see that you are not open to understanding the role of a Pastoral Associate. These are some of the duties as described in our diocesan handbook:
  1. Collaborates closely with pastor and othe rstaff; when appropriately delegated may represent the pastor
  2. Collaborate in over all process of parish administration
    3)administers delegated parish programs and acts as director of one or more parish ministries
  3. serves as a pastoral generalis, able to function in a variety of specific ministries, supervises ministry interns, serves as mentor for part-time ministeir
  4. related to cluster, deanery, vicariate and diocesan structures
  5. participates in civic and ecumenical activities
  6. leads prayer when appropriate
  7. assists in preparation for sacraments and in planning parish sacramental and liturgical celebrations
  8. fosters the faith growth of all members of the parish
  9. contributes to the initial formation & ongoing development of varishos ministers and parish groups
  10. interprets authentic Church teaching and discipline in a responsible manner
  11. provides personal presene at parish events
  12. visits the sick
  13. provides spiritual leadership for individuals and groups
  14. assists in ministering to persons in crisis
  15. also can facilitate dispensation and annulment procedures to the Tribunal if trained to do so.
The PA is also requred to have ongoing formation & education, be involved in persoanl spiritual direction, make an annual retreat, and participate in appropriate workshops, seminars and programs. Most PAs also serve on diocesan committees and commissions.

I would say that is a bit more than a secretary does and is too much to ask of a volunteer. It is a full time postition.
 
Joannm said:
I can see that you are not open to understanding the role of a Pastoral Associate. These are some of the duties as described in our diocesan handbook:
  1. Collaborates closely with pastor and othe rstaff; when appropriately delegated may represent the pastor
  2. Collaborate in over all process of parish administration
    3)administers delegated parish programs and acts as director of one or more parish ministries
  3. serves as a pastoral generalis, able to function in a variety of specific ministries, supervises ministry interns, serves as mentor for part-time ministeir
  4. related to cluster, deanery, vicariate and diocesan structures
  5. participates in civic and ecumenical activities
  6. leads prayer when appropriate
  7. assists in preparation for sacraments and in planning parish sacramental and liturgical celebrations
  8. fosters the faith growth of all members of the parish
  9. contributes to the initial formation & ongoing development of varishos ministers and parish groups
  10. interprets authentic Church teaching and discipline in a responsible manner
  11. provides personal presene at parish events
  12. visits the sick
  13. provides spiritual leadership for individuals and groups
  14. assists in ministering to persons in crisis
  15. also can facilitate dispensation and annulment procedures to the Tribunal if trained to do so.
The PA is also requred to have ongoing formation & education, be involved in persoanl spiritual direction, make an annual retreat, and participate in appropriate workshops, seminars and programs. Most PAs also serve on diocesan committees and commissions.

** I would say that is a bit more than a secretary does and is too much to ask of a volunteer. It is a full time postition.**
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Yeah, we used to call these people “priests.”
 
In the remote Alaskan parishes:

Legal point of contact for the parish
Coordinates lay ministry schedules
Leads liturgical functions*
Arranges for Batism**, confirmation***, first holy communion
Keeps the baptismal record for the parish
May stand as witness to a Marriage as an extraordinary minister**** and does the marriage prep per the diocesan curriculum.
Trains and appoints lay ministers
May be assigned to preach*
  • If a priest is available, Mass is held by the priest. If no priest is available, but a Deacon is, the Deacon leads either a communion service or a liturgy of the word (depending upon amount of Eucharist reserved). If neither is available, the lay pastoral associate holds a liturgy of the word, or if sufficient Eucharist is reserved, a communion service.
    Likewise, preaching assignments are restricted to only preaching when there is no priest or deacon available, and require completion of a homiletics course…
    ** in many cases, baptisms will wait until a priest comes in. But in emergencies, the LPPA is the regular extraordinary minister of Baptism. Canon 862 §2
    *** Makes arrangements with the Bishop for either the Bishop, the Retired Bishop, or a priest with letter of commission to come and confirm the candidates.
    **** Marriages are strongly encouraged to wait, but, under canon law, if the wait would be past a certain length of time, a lay minister can stand as witness for the church. See cannon 1112.
 
scylla said:
Generally places with a priest shortage are more progressive and not so orthodox, so abuses are not the result of the lay parish person but because of the general environment they serve in.
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There is a real danger in making “generally” statements. Out here in the wild and wooly West, “generally” the places that don’t have a priest are in small communities which are not large enough to have a population that could justify having a full time pastor. Liberal? Not likely. These are folks who don’t have high tech, or usually, “high” anything jobs. They work in small stores, small businesses, or are farmers or ranchers or loggers. and for the record, they are not liberal.

It may be that back East in the big cities, that parishes without pastors are liberal; I have no experience and no knowledge. But making such generalities is, I suspect, not based on a very wide experience.
 
Scotty_PGH said:
Yeah, we used to call these people “priests.”
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we did when a smaller parish could have an assistant, and maybe a third priest who taught at the Catholic high school.

However, we no longer have that many priests, and the ones we do have are generally older, and the workload has increased, not decreased. Thus we have laity filling in for the positions which do not require ordination - running programs, coordinating volunteers, teaching classes, and other activities which are not of a sacramental nature.

You are right that we need more priests; but we need them to adminster the sacraments, not to head up volunteers.

Most priests I have met did not go to the seminary because they wanted to deal with the day to day grind of administration; and I have met a large number who had little or no skill at doing so. They went because they wanted to save souls, not because they wanted to run a food pantry for the opoor, or to supervise those who run the pantry. Some may have been very oritented to teaching religion; and some couldn’t (and still can’t) teach their way out of a thin wet paper bag with a really sharp knife.
 
Aramis said:
In the remote Alaskan parishes:

Legal point of contact for the parish
Coordinates lay ministry schedules
Leads liturgical functions*
Arranges for Batism**, confirmation***, first holy communion
Keeps the baptismal record for the parish
May stand as witness to a Marriage as an extraordinary minister**** and does the marriage prep per the diocesan curriculum.
Trains and appoints lay ministers
May be assigned to preach*
  • If a priest is available, Mass is held by the priest. If no priest is available, but a Deacon is, the Deacon leads either a communion service or a liturgy of the word (depending upon amount of Eucharist reserved). If neither is available, the lay pastoral associate holds a liturgy of the word, or if sufficient Eucharist is reserved, a communion service.
    Likewise, preaching assignments are restricted to only preaching when there is no priest or deacon available, and require completion of a homiletics course…
    ** in many cases, baptisms will wait until a priest comes in. But in emergencies, the LPPA is the regular extraordinary minister of Baptism. Canon 862 §2
    *** Makes arrangements with the Bishop for either the Bishop, the Retired Bishop, or a priest with letter of commission to come and confirm the candidates.
    **** Marriages are strongly encouraged to wait, but, under canon law, if the wait would be past a certain length of time, a lay minister can stand as witness for the church. See cannon 1112.
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What you are describing is a parish administrator for a parish that has no priest, that is entirely different.
 
Sure said:
What you are describing is a parish administrator for a parish that has no priest, that is entirely different.
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We have a parish with 3,000 families, an elementary school and a high school and a religious ed program with 1,000 kids. We have only one full time priest with health problems. We do have two resident priests but they are in school most of the time and take very limited duties. Our deacon is only available one evening a week aside from being here for Mass on Sunday. Lay people are neeed to take on many of the duties or else our pastor will end up with a lot more health problems than he already has. It is much easier to have one PA to handle most of this work than to have him deal with a group of volunteers that may or may not have the same level of commitment as a full time Pastoral Associate who truly sees his or her work as a ministry.
 
Joannm said:
I can see that you are not open to understanding the role of a Pastoral Associate. These are some of the duties as described in our diocesan handbook:
  1. Collaborates closely with pastor and othe rstaff; when appropriately delegated may represent the pastor
    **
    collaborate doing what???**
  2. Collaborate in over all process of parish administration
Like filling out forms?=administrative

3)administers delegated parish programs and acts as director of one or more parish ministries

So, a music director or RE director? Then call them that.
  1. serves as a pastoral generalis, able to function in a variety of specific ministries, supervises ministry interns, serves as mentor for part-time ministeir
What exactly is all this “ministering”…is this counseling??? Call it what it is.
  1. related to cluster, deanery, vicariate and diocesan structures
The deanery has weekly meetings and most diocese have meetings every 2 years, the priest attends them.
  1. participates in civic and ecumenical activities
Like 2 or 3 times a year??? What about a priest or deacon???
  1. leads prayer when appropriate
Any lay person can do this, you don’t need a title. A title makes it seem like you need some specific training to lead prayers. You don’t.
  1. assists in preparation for sacraments and in planning parish sacramental and liturgical celebrations
    **
    The priest is the chief liturgist of his parish and besides choosing music, there really isn’t much more than 20 minutes of work with the pastor to “plan” a liturgy. The preparation for the sacraments is done by the RE director.**
  2. fosters the faith growth of all members of the parish
That’s nice, we all have to do that. No special title or degree or even specific action required for this one.
  1. contributes to the initial formation & ongoing development of varishos ministers and parish groups
Who are all these “ministers” running around who need formation? Formation to do what? Give out Communion? Wouldn’t this fall under the priest, deacon, RE director, Adult Formation director, or director of catechesis???
  1. interprets authentic Church teaching and discipline in a responsible manner
Again, this is the responsibility of every parishioner and it is VERY problematic to have someone with a “title” who thinks that they have any more authority or responsibility in this area than anyone else in the parish, because they don’t.
  1. provides personal presene at parish events
**Because the priest(s) and deacon(s) are unavailable? **
  1. visits the sick
    **
    Priest/deacon???**
  2. provides spiritual leadership for individuals and groups
They have no authority beyond anyone else on this…maybe call them a catechism teacher?
  1. assists in ministering to persons in crisis
the correct word would be counselor or priest or deacon
  1. also can facilitate dispensation and annulment procedures to the Tribunal if trained to do so.
This is administrative paperwork that has to be signed by the priest anyway.

The PA is also requred to have ongoing formation & education, be involved in persoanl spiritual direction, make an annual retreat, and participate in appropriate workshops, seminars and programs. Most PAs also serve on diocesan committees and commissions.

I would say that is a bit more than a secretary does and is too much to ask of a volunteer. It is a full time postition.
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Sorry, almost everything you listed here is ambiguous “collaboration” type work…“Honey, I’ll be home late because I have to collaborate with Father about stuff.”

I’ve put my comments in bold. I still don’t see where this becomes some really big giant important job. Most parishes either have staff as I’ve noted or they have volunteers that fulfill these needs.
 
OK I have hesitated to say this, but I am a Pasotral Assocate and have been for 11 years in two different parishes. OUr parish aslo has a DRE, a Music Director, a Parish SOcial Minister, a Youth Director, admisistrative assisntat, a development director and several other full time positions. I do not do any of their jobs. What I do is coordinate all Adult Fiath formation for the parish. We have a very extensive adult program with many guest instructors. I facilitate two groups and teach a 5 week course once a year (an MA in theology is required by our diocese to teach such adult courses). I am in over all charge of all ministries in that I facilitate, plugging in parishioners with appropriate ministries and facilitate our ministries council. I am liturgy coordinator. That means writing the petitions each week and coordinating anything special with the priests that is going on at any pariticular liturgy. I put together prayer services for different groups, I train EM and lectors and the CLOW leaders. I moderate the MInistry of Consolation, I oversee the Music Director. I work witht the DRE as a consultant. I help problem solve any disagreements within ministries. I sit in a non voting capacity on the Pastoral Council. I handle questions that come into the office with regard to specific things like theological questions, questions about sacraments, etc. I interview parents coming in for baptism and new RCIA candidates, I run the Baptism program and coordinate the Sunday baptisms and coordinate the RCIA process with two catechists. I work with the Elementary school kids on their class masses, preparing them to read and to set the altar. I sub for absent Religious Ed catechists. I attend meetings with or without the pastor. I am a listening ear for the pastor (and other staff) members from everything to pastoral decisions to his medical problems. I sit on two diocesan commissions (liturgy and RCIA), am involved in diaconate formation and the formation of ltiurgical ministers for the diocese, and teach in diocesan Pastoral Formation Institute. I am sure I left out some thngs.

That being said…no, I am not on the altar during mass unless I am serving as an EM…no, I am not a priest wannabe nor do I subscribe to women’s ordination…I get along splendidly with any priests I work with and I have the greatest respect for our priests. My spiritual director is a conservative moral theologian, I am quite orthodox in my theology…and most of the people in the parish have no idea of who I am or what I do as I do not flaunt it or do it for attention. I prefer it that way. The only reason I am saying all this now is because of the negative remarks about those who hold a position like mine in their parishes and because it was asked what a PA does in the parish.
 
otjm said:
There is a real danger in making “generally” statements. Out here in the wild and wooly West, “generally” the places that don’t have a priest are in small communities which are not large enough to have a population that could justify having a full time pastor. Liberal? Not likely. These are folks who don’t have high tech, or usually, “high” anything jobs. They work in small stores, small businesses, or are farmers or ranchers or loggers. and for the record, they are not liberal.

It may be that back East in the big cities, that parishes without pastors are liberal; I have no experience and no knowledge. But making such generalities is, I suspect, not based on a very wide experience.
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I will say generally as you are referring to a whole different situation, rural parishes that do not have a sufficient population to provide a priest for a parish.

I am talking about the majority of situations where this is done to remedy the priest shortage which has come about because of Bishops who do not do their job, the negativity surrounding the priesthood in progressive parishes and the clericalization of the laity.

Of course there will be situations where there is no priest in mission territory, but that is not the subject of this thread.

The sort of thing that is being discussed is probably more common here in California, I wish we had a more sane environment such as you describe.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Joannm said:
OK I have hesitated to say this, but I am a Pasotral Assocate and have been for 11 years in two different parishes. OUr parish aslo has a DRE, a Music Director, a Parish SOcial Minister, a Youth Director, admisistrative assisntat, a development director and several other full time positions. I do not do any of their jobs. What I do is coordinate all Adult Fiath formation for the parish. We have a very extensive adult program with many guest instructors. I facilitate two groups and teach a 5 week course once a year (an MA in theology is required by our diocese to teach such adult courses). I am in over all charge of all ministries in that I facilitate, plugging in parishioners with appropriate ministries and facilitate our ministries council. I am liturgy coordinator. That means writing the petitions each week and coordinating anything special with the priests that is going on at any pariticular liturgy. I put together prayer services for different groups, I train EM and lectors and the CLOW leaders. I moderate the MInistry of Consolation, I oversee the Music Director. I work witht the DRE as a consultant. I help problem solve any disagreements within ministries. I sit in a non voting capacity on the Pastoral Council. I handle questions that come into the office with regard to specific things like theological questions, questions about sacraments, etc. I interview parents coming in for baptism and new RCIA candidates, I run the Baptism program and coordinate the Sunday baptisms and coordinate the RCIA process with two catechists. I work with the Elementary school kids on their class masses, preparing them to read and to set the altar. I sub for absent Religious Ed catechists. I attend meetings with or without the pastor. I am a listening ear for the pastor (and other staff) members from everything to pastoral decisions to his medical problems. I sit on two diocesan commissions (liturgy and RCIA), am involved in diaconate formation and the formation of ltiurgical ministers for the diocese, and teach in diocesan Pastoral Formation Institute. I am sure I left out some thngs.

That being said…no, I am not on the altar during mass unless I am serving as an EM…no, I am not a priest wannabe nor do I subscribe to women’s ordination…I get along splendidly with any priests I work with and I have the greatest respect for our priests. My spiritual director is a conservative moral theologian, I am quite orthodox in my theology…and most of the people in the parish have no idea of who I am or what I do as I do not flaunt it or do it for attention. I prefer it that way. The only reason I am saying all this now is because of the negative remarks about those who hold a position like mine in their parishes and because it was asked what a PA does in the parish.
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You are one of those lovely ladies who actually understands the position, and does not see herself as a priest-wannabe. Unfortunately, these women are the types we run into- those who flaunt their title and make their presence known on a very forceful level.
Thank you for doing what you do.
 
PatienceAndLove said:
You are one of those lovely ladies who actually understands the position, and does not see herself as a priest-wannabe. Unfortunately, these women are the types we run into- those who flaunt their title and make their presence known on a very forceful level.
Thank you for doing what you do.
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Thank you. I needed that. I just came home from what supposed to be a meeting of some of our volunteers. Unfortunatly, none of them showed up. The only two that showed were the two who were helping me with the presentation. None of the volunteers called to say they weren’t coming and they all received calls reminding them of the meeting. I could have gone home 4 hours earlier and had a nice dinner with my husband tonight instead of working overtime helping out with the first day of CCD and dealing with four groups that double booked two rooms tonight in the parish center, and then going to a meeting where the people who the meeting was for don’t show. I guess they figured that since they were only volunteers that they really didn’t have to show up if they didn’t want to. Another reason not to depend on volunteers for getting important things done in a parish. I am in the process of drafting a letter to them but I guess I should cool down before I do. I just may have to be a forceful presence…
 
You have a very difficult and necessary job. Sounds like the parish is fortunate to have you. When would it be necessary for you to do # 11 on your list, interpret authentic Church teaching?

=
Joannm;2768497]I11) interprets authentic Church teaching and discipline in a responsible manner
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stmaria said:
You have a very difficult and necessary job. Sounds like the parish is fortunate to have you. When would it be necessary for you to do # 11 on your list, interpret authentic Church teaching?

=
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When I am teaching an adult course or a sacramental prep program or in speaking with parishioners on a specific topic. Someone may come to me with a question on a doctrine that they have misinterpreted and I must give them the correct teaching. Sort of what an apologist may do, although I do not consider myself an apologist.
 
as a person who is taking the lay ministry formation program for my diocese I will assure you it IS an agenda driven program and its existence is indeed to get the camels nose intothe tent. I sit in a group of women ( I myself am a man) and endure hours and hours of dissent spewing forth from this program.Constant griping Our leader even expressed distaste when I mentioned a dioceses in a nearby state had 20 first year seminarians…the group leader said such a vocation ssurge is “unhealthy”. I am getting the impression that there is a sub culture of people in my diocese who are busy with their agendas and they are all on the same page. AND there is definately a gatekeeper situation going on. As a diaconate candidate…I find it unnerving that I am being watched very closely by the facilitator of my group and the program director…who by the way has the power to kick me out of the program…which is required for the diaconate.
 
Joannm said:
As I stated, most PAs around here have MAs or doctorates in theology or ministry and are just as educated theologically as the ordained clergy they work with…some even more so.
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Education or not when I want an answer I will go to clergy.
 
I’m in this diocese. All these ambiguities and heresies are coming to you. This doicese is like another religion if you’ve not been here. Fight for tradition tooth and nail. The agenda here is make all believe that there are no priests, so they can have lay ministers, then married priests, then women priests. Any of you who defend V2 need to visit almost any parish in the Los Angeles Archdiocese. Please don’t use the implementation excuse for V2. Come and see what pc has done to the Church, and coming to you in time.
 
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