Lay people are talking during mass

[Mary888]

Oh you mean the chit-chat and socializing? That is not ok according to the Scriptures St. Peter says the liturgy is not for socializing, but then what is preferred? That they should skip Mass because they cannot stop doing that, or that the rest would ask God for patience, kindness and concentration so the whispering and silly talk does not disrupt their devotion to God?
You know Church attendance is a worldwide problem. And I imagine people just being there, even if not fully concentrated, they get the benefits from it either way because of God’s presence. I asked for help on concentration and eventually the local background whispering got muted.
My suggestion is better audio.systems for the priest and choir and the problem is diminished.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

Oh you mean the chit-chat and socializing?

No it is not socializing! It is loud talking in front of the whole congregation while the priest sits and listens, as part of the Sunday liturgy. I could not believe either, but it is an actual practice of a church group, the NCW, as they celebrate the Holy Eucharist as a parish mass in their own community.

 

[jack63]

, or the celebration of eucharistic liturgies on special occasions

Please quote me in context.

 

[FOG]

In the rare instances I have seen it happen, I don’t think I ever left Mass thinking my time of worship of God had been soiled, or the quality of that worship severely diminished. I think it may be another case of, “Well other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?”

 

[Tis_Bearself]

From what I have gathered, they have Vatican approved liturgies/Eucharistic services that deviate quite a bit from what most of us are used to.

This is also my understanding. It is further my understanding that their Masses are usually confined to just members of the Way. We had a thread on here a couple years ago where the girlfriend of a Way member was unhappy that the Way group her boyfriend belonged to didn’t want her attending Mass with them because she wasn’t a member and apparently they felt it important that the personal sharing that goes on be confined to just members. It’s a tricky business excluding people from Masses as that’s almost never permissible.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

No it is not socializing! It is loud talking in front of the whole congregation while the priest sits and listens, as part of the Sunday liturgy. I could not believe either, but it is an actual practice of a church group, the NCW, as they celebrate the Holy Eucharist as a parish mass in their own community.

If you’re not at these Masses, and they’re being done by a group that you apparently have no experience or familiarity with till you read about it, then how is this your problem? Is it happening in your own parish?

The Way has been going on for a long time, several Popes have been well aware of them (one of the accused bishops recently, the one in Guam, was heavily involved with The Way and the controversy around him extends to his handling of some matters involving The Way) and apparently they are permitted to do what they do. If you don’t like it then don’t go and don’t support it. I don’t.

 

[curious_cath]

In a recent discussion … I was greatly surprised to learn that in the church group called NCW there is a session of lay people talking aloud during mass

You are quoting from my topic. It is true that I have skirmishes in my itinerary, the NCW, but this is 100% unrelated to the liturgies we follow. There is nothing wrong with the practice you mention.

I found the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way online available:

Your link is NOT for the current approved Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way! Your link is for a document from 2003, the provisionary statutes, that is completely outdated. The finalized Statues of the NCW was approved in 2008 and only that edition reflects our practices in the NCW.

§2 - “It is permitted to have a brief instruction that helps explain better the liturgy that is being celebrated, and even, in exceptional circumstances, a few testimonies, as long as these conform to the liturgical norms, are offered on the occasion of Eucharistic liturgies celebrated on particular days (for seminarians, the sick, etc.), and are thought truly helpful as an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the celebrating priest. These instructions and testimonies must not assume characteristics that might cause them to be confused with the homily.”

This instruction is from Cardinal Arinze’s letter that was written to NCW by the request of then Pope Benedict 16th in 2006. This letter anticipates the final approval of the Statutes that happened 2 years later. There are only these two documents regulating the particularities of NCW liturgy,

(1) the Arinze letter and
(2) the final Statutes as approved in 2008.

The Arinze letter precisely approves the resonances or echoes. " … a few testimonies, as long as these conform to the liturgical norms, are offered on the occasion of Eucharistic liturgies…" The echo is resonating during the celebration of the Eucharist from our sisters and brothers by the Holy Spirit.

my understanding that their Masses are usually confined to just members of the Way.

This is untrue. All celebrations of the Eucharist in NCW communities are part of the Holy Day liturgies of the parish, therefore open to other parishioners.

It’s a tricky business excluding people from Masses as that’s almost never permissible.

We never exclude anybody!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

That’s good. Perhaps it was the particular NCW group the lady had posted about in the past that went off the rails somehow. Or maybe there was something else going on (like her boyfriend didn’t want her at the Masses).

I know it has been very controversial when other groups have tried to exclude people from Masses, for instance in the case of one group that had a men’s Mass from which women were excluded for decades.

 

[curious_cath]

Does the NCW have permission to do things that can’t happen during regular mass…I don’t know.

Yes, absolutely! The Arinze letter from 2006 and the Statutes of the NCW from 2008 give all the permissions we need.

 

[Trishie]

Thank you for your kind assueance. You are very thoughtful
but fortunately. It wasn’t for me.
That was many years ago, and it wasn’t a mistake not to join them. My focus was always Eucharist. All the parish was encouraged to go to the first few meetings lead by … I can’t remember whether they were South American or Spanish, … missionary enthusiasts. From where the movement originated, anyway.

The priest didn’t understand that I resisted. He was really caught up in the movement. He was a generous priest who personally did a lot for homeless youths. Even used to busk for money for them.

I didn’t cave to the pressure. It would have been very unfair to my husband and children, but as I was in the way of weekly Confession the priest tried many times. He meant well, but i’d never be comfortable with all the razz that went with it anyway. (Is ‘razz’ unkind! I can’t think of a better equivalent this late in my day)
The priest went to his heavenly reward some years ago, God bless him. Last thing he ever said to me was, “see you in heaven, if not before.” Well, that’s encouraging, anyway I guess!!

 

[curious_cath]

instead of conducting their meetings during Mass, they held them two evenings a week at separate meetings.

It is called initial catechesis and runs for 8 weeks, holding meetings twice a week. At the end of the initial catechesis, a “baby” is born by faith in the Kerygma, the Word of God we heard from the catechist. This “baby” is the new Neocatechumenal community of the parish! From then on, members go to live in their community, rather than in any other church group, twice a week.

One meeting in a typical week is for our devotion to the Word of God. We discuss 4 carefully selected Bible readings each time, interspersed with praising songs, all composed by our venerated leader, Kiko Arguello, the founder of NCW. This is also the time when we learn how to echo to the Word of God. Our discussion is not like a usual Bible study, it is more personal. We learn to talk about our own realities, echoing what the Bible is telling to our lives. I am writing down this to dispell some misunderstanding and confusion about these things that are perfectly okay to do among Catholic believers.

The second meeting the community has on a week is the celebration of Eucharist, a community-centered mass that is nevertheless open to other parishioners. For some reason, other perishioners almost never come though, I don’t know why. Our celebration is beautiful, they would love it! All the songs of Kiko are designed to some specific circumstance in our life like that of the step of faith we are making in the NCW. Very solemn and beautiful music. One reason why other parishioners do not frequent our celebration of the Eucharist could be the extended time we spend with our Lord during mass. The celebration uisually lasts 2 hours, because of the extensive echoing we have each time that greatly contributes to our spiritual journey, to our growth in faith and confidence in Jesus Christ. My Lord loves me and saves me through my community even when I am an irredeemable sinner. This is my reality that keeps me walking in the Way.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

What’s “echoing”?

 

[curious_cath]

What’s “echoing”?

Echoing is what this topic is all about, if I understand correctly. The OP asked about “loud talking” during mass in the Neocatechumenal Way. This loud talking is not something irreverent, just the contrary! Very reverent and Christ-centered. Echos are the testimonies said during the celebration of the Eucharist or at other occasion. These testimonies are also called resonances or echos, because the Word of God that you have just heard announced will resonate or echo in you by the Holy Spirit. When you speak out in front of your community and your priest during the celebration, you can be sure that Jesus listens to you.

That is why we talk so often about our current life situation or relation to a particular person, be it parent, chidren or spouse, because we bring our situation to the Lord as a faith offering. This is echoing! As my catechist told me, we echo about what the Word of God is telling to our lives. I think it is a beautiful way to summarize.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m sure it’s wonderful for those who participate in this.
But I’m sure Jesus listens to me whenever, wherever and however I talk to him, including in the silence of my heart.

 

[curious_cath]

I can’t remember whether they were South American or Spanish, … missionary enthusiasts. From where the movement originated, anyway.

The Neocatechumenal Way was founded 50 years ago in Spain by two Spanish faith warriors and evangelizers, Kiko Arguello and Carmen Hernandez. Kiko is a painter and musician with talent in architect, as well. He has composed all music for the NCW that we sing at our celebrations. He also composed an oratorio about the Innocent Suffering that was presented by symphonic orchestra and world famous singers around the world.

Carmen was a former nun who went to the Holy Land, Israel, to extensively study our faith. When she returned to Spain, she joined Kiko to establish Neocatechumenal Way as we know it. She added her theological and exegetical expertise, beyond her incredible enthusiasm, to Kiko’s efforts to make the movement rise not only in Spain, but also in Italy and many other countries afterward. Carmen has died 3 years ago. We pray for her that she is duly regongnized for her spiritual greatness as a saint and a doctor of the church. We are absolutely sure that when we go to heaven, she will receive and greet us at the gate and then she leads us by our hand to the Lord to see Him face-to-face in eternity.

 

[curious_cath]

Jesus listens to me whenever, wherever and however I talk to him

Yes. My brothers in my community are the witnesses that Jesus loves me! This gives me much needed confidence to live my life in the Lord! This is a plus, this is a fruit! I see that love and approval in the eyes of my brothers and the catechist who is also a brother and no more.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

Your link is NOT for the current approved Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way!

I apologize, I did not know you had new Statutes. Is the text of the final Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way from 2008 available online?

There are only these two documents regulating the particularities of NCW liturgy,

(1) the Arinze letter and
(2) the final Statutes as approved in 2008.

Good to know. So we only need to research these. I actually quoted the “Arinze letter” as you call it above. It does not permit your testimonies before the homily! You don’t need to be a linguist to read and understand:

1. brief instruction is okay,
2. a few testimonies in exceptional circumstances,
3. on the occasion of Eucharistic liturgies celebrated on particular days,
4. helpful as an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the celebrating priest,
5. a testimony cannot be a homily.

Your resonances or echos as you say are

1. not instructions,
2. you have them at ALL masses, not only in exceptional circumstances,
3. at Eucharistic liturgies celebrated every Sunday, not only on particular days,
4. you do this not after the homily but before it,
5. therefore, your echos cannot be an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the priest!

If you don’t see that your regular loud echoing in your Neocatechumenal mass on every Sunday is in violation of these instructions, then perhaps there could be a minor problem with English comprehension.

Let me tell you an example. My adolescent son asked me to allow him to party with his friends. I said okay under some conditions,

a. no alcohol,
b. be at home by 11:00 p.m.

He came home the next day at 12:30 a.m. smelling alcohol and obviously being slightly drunk. I was waiting for him. When he tried to sneak into his room, I stood in front in him and looked in his eyes with raised eyebrows. So he told me, thanks dad for allowing me this great night out. I did not say a word. But in the morning I had a serious conversation with him. What do you think I had to tell my son?

 

[curious_cath]

Your resonances or echos as you say are

1. not instructions,
2. you have them at ALL masses, not only in exceptional circumstances ,
3. at Eucharistic liturgies celebrated every Sunday, not only on particular days ,
4. you do this not after the homily but before it,
5. therefore, your echos cannot be an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the priest!

1. Doubtlessly, echos in our community are not instructions. We do have short introductions to Scripture readings at the celebration of the Eucharist. These admonitions are presented by our brothers. These are the instructions we talk about. But echos that come after the readings are never instructions.
2. Our celebrations of the Eucharist qualify for exceptional circumstance. It is exceptional, because we are the Neocatechumenals.
3. We have our Eucharist celebrations of Saturday evenings after the last parish mass and not on Sundays.
4. Of ocurse we echo before the homily, because we echo on the Scripture readings. We don’t echo on the homily, but on the Word of God.
5. Our echos are not illustrations, but demonstrations of the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

My adolescent son asked me to allow him to party with his friends. I said okay under some conditions,

a. no alcohol,
b. be at home by 11:00 p.m.

Quite uncongenial! If you have an adolescent son, you should not talk about alcohol at all, because he will try it out. It is called natural concupiscence we were all born with.

 

[TheLittleLady]

If you have an adolescent son, you should not talk about alcohol at all, because he will try it out.

“Oh, don’t teach them because they are only gonna sin/break the law anyway” is far from our duty as parents.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

As my catechist told me, we echo about what the Word of God is telling to our lives. I think it is a beautiful way to summarize.

I am sorry, but this does not make any sense to me. The Word of God is telling me a lot of good things. But it is telling me and “to my life”. My life is not a separate thing from me. One can talk to me but not “to my life”!

We are absolutely sure that when we go to heaven, she [Carmen] will receive and greet us at the gate and then she leads us by our hand to the Lord to see Him face-to-face in eternity.

Oh please! Are you sure there is a greeting person welcoming you to heaven? Your assumptions are not really supported by theology.

My brothers in my community are the witnesses that Jesus loves me!

Your brothers? Is this a community of males only? Is there a gender based separation into disctinct communities in NCW?

If you have an adolescent son, you should not talk about alcohol at all, because he will try it out. It is called natural concupiscence we were all born with.

My son overstepped the permission he had. You call this natural?! Hmm! I don’t know what principles you use raising your kids, but in my family rules are rules. Period. This is the Catholic understanding. When I give permission to my son to go to a party, it is NOT a blanket permission to do whatever he wants to do! He must follow our agreement.

Likewise, if NCW has a permission to say short instructions to Scripture readings before they are read, this should NOT be construed as a blanket approval of unlimited “echos” after the Scripture readings. Especially not before the homily.

Do you feel NCW is keeping its agreement with Pope Benedict, as expressed by the letter of Cardinal Arinze?

Of ocurse we echo before the homily, because we echo on the Scripture readings. We don’t echo on the homily, but on the Word of God.

That sounds defiance to me. Cardinal Arinze, following the intention of Pope Benedict, sanctioned to the Neocatechumenal Way that short testimonies might be said after the homily “as an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the celebrating priest”. It is a direct violation of the rule, the words of instruction of the Arinze letter, to “echo” before the priest has had his homily delivered.

You keep avoiding to give an honest answer to the questions raised here. You are trying to explain away the meaning of the words of instruction laid out in the Arinze letter. You keep changing the context to avoid straithforward response. This is extremely unfortunate!