Lay people are talking during mass

[Here-I-am-Lord]

In a recent discussion here

Tension from my spiritual group Spirituality

My spiritual group, the Neocatechumenal Way (NCW), has placed me under increasing tension for expressing my opinion. My opinion is that NCW is great, but could improve in some areas of spiritual life. When I express my feeling or view, an immediate reflex is to call Satan and its demons on me. I mean I am being told repeatedly that my feelings are coming from Satan and my thoughts are the consequence of an infestation of my mind by demons. I am horrified and feel tortured. I look in the mirror a…

I was greatly surprised to learn that in the church group called NCW there is a session of lay people talking aloud during mass. Let me quote the author of the topic:

“I got accustomed to sharing my life events with my community, even with my catechists. Now I see that their appvoval means a lot to me. We are all in the same shoes. We used to share before the consecration of the bread and wine during Eucharist celebration. This is an extremely good time to talk about what the Word inspired in you about your own life. I always feel like Jesus is listening to me, even if I talk about personal matters.”



To be sure, I am not condemning this practice. It would be a rush judgment, anyway. But I am puzzled, so I would like to understand it better. The information I was given is here,

1. NCW has some kind of mass different from the regular mass of the parish;
2. there is a “sharing” of life stories of attendees of the mass before the consecration of the bread and wine;
3. this means the flow of mass is suspended and lay people take over the stage with loud speech;
4. the mass is expanded in time to accommodate the talking session;
5. afterward, the mass continues the same manner as any regular parish mass.

My questions,

1. is this practice allowed by church regulation and the rules of a valid mass as laid out in GIRM?
2. does NCW have some special permission for the talk sessions in mass?
3. what do people, who are not NCW members, do during these sessions?
4. is there any other Catholic church group who follow the same practice?
5. is there any video proof, youtube or other internet source, demonstrating the NCW mass live?

I hope that those who follow this practice might give us some insight. I also would like hear the opinion of those well-versed in Catholic liturgy. Thank you very much, in advance, for your feedback.

 

[Trishie]

Hi, in my research so far, only this, but will keep looking later, I have to log out now.

If it is the case that even announcements are restricted to the end of Mass, a period of lay discussion in the middle of Mass surely wouldn’t be permitted by Liturgical norms

"Q1: Should community notices, such as dates of youth meetings, matrimony courses, when prayer meetings will be held, and the like be read after Communion? Or should they be read after Mass is finished (i.e., outside the liturgy)? Q2: Should organ music continue to play softly when the priest is purifying the chalice after Communion and the tabernacle on the main altar still open? — L.B., Rabat, Malta

A: In answer to question one we can say that the correct moment for such announcements is after the closing prayer but before the final blessing. If necessary the people may be instructed to sit down. Thus the General Instruction of the Roman Missal [GIRM] says r[e.] the concluding rites:

“90. The concluding rites consist of

“a. Brief announcements, if they are necessary;

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur583.htm

 

[Trishie]

Just found this, haven’t read it yet, haven’t time, but it sounds promising
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...iturgical-norms-for-neocatechumenal-way-25687

 

[jack63]

I had the same question and did some digging. Can lay people speak during the homily or at mass?

It is actually allowed anywhere. There is a Vatican document from 1997 about this titled

“ON CERTAIN QUESTIONS REGARDING THE COLLABORATION OF THE NON-ORDAINED FAITHFUL IN THE SACRED MINISTRY OF PRIEST”

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...ocuments/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Under article III related to “the Homily” it states…

2. A form of instruction designed to promote a greater understanding of the liturgy, including personal testimonies, or the celebration of eucharistic liturgies on special occasions (e.g. day of the Seminary, day of the sick etc.) is lawful, of in harmony with liturgical norms, should such be considered objectively opportune as a means of explicating the regular homily preached by the celebrant priest. Nonetheless, these testimonies or explanations may not be such so as to assume a character which could be confused with the homily.

 

[jack63]

I’ve also seen this happen at a Jesuit mass. For example, the priest will give a brief homily and invite up a nun to talk about her order’s work. As far as I can see this is perfectly fine.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

A short video might be of interest…

 

[prayerrider]

Thank God for the TLM!

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

Can lay people speak during the homily or at mass?

It is actually allowed anywhere.

Oh really?
That is not exactly what I read.

Under article III related to “the Homily” it states…

It seems to me the talk you are referring to

1. is a form of instruction,
2. should not be regular, but allowed on special occassion,
3. should explicate the regular homily.

In this context, let me ask: is this talk happening before or after the regular homily of the priest?

the priest will give a brief homily and invite up a nun to talk about her order’s work

This sounds like a nun, not a lay person, talking after the homily.

 

[Beryllos]

Getting back to the OP… I don’t know much about NCW but I imagine that there are two points between the Homily and the Consecration when it may be reasonable for members of the congregation to speak individually: the Universal Prayer (Prayers of the Faithful), and the Presentation of the Gifts.

Members of the congregation offering prayers of petition might work fine for a congregation of up to 10 members, but for larger congregations, there are many ways it could go wrong.

At the Presentation of the Gifts, the bread and wine are brought up, the collection is taken, and I have heard it said that we may also, in silent prayer or mental disposition, offer ourselves to God. If anyone spoke up at that point, it could only be a brief prayer of offering, ten words maximum. Sharing stories and reflections does not fit within the framework of presentation of gifts, in my opinion.

 

[jack63]

In this context, let me ask: is this talk happening before or after the regular homily of the priest?

When I’ve seen this, it was personal testimony after the homily as a way to explain the homily.

should not be regular, but allowed on special occassion,

This is not how I read the Vatican document. There was a comma in there…e.g. (stuff about personal testimonies), or special occasions. So I agree on point 1 and 3, but not 2.

This sounds like a nun, not a lay person, talking after the homily.

The document referred to those who are not ordained. Both a nun and a lay person are not ordained.

I’ve never seen a NCW mass by the way…it might be interesting. I certainly don’t have time to sit thru the long seminars though.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

From what I have gathered, they have Vatican approved liturgies/Eucharistic services that deviate quite a bit from what most of us are used to. From the little bit I can find on YouTube, they look highly charismatic.

From where I sit, if the Vatican approves it and if they are under the authority of a bishop who approves it, who am I to tell them what they can or can’t do? I don’t have any authority over their liturgy.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

there are two points between the Homily and the Consecration when it may be reasonable for members of the congregation to speak individually:

I believe, the lay people’s talk or resonance session as I heard to be called, is after the readings. At least this is what I could figure out from the referred topic on the top. If this is true, then resonances are said before the homily of the priest.

This could be wrong in several ways. I wonder, for one, how could these resonances explicate the homily if they are said before the homily even takes place?!

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

I don’t have any authority over their liturgy.

I agree on this one. But, in my mind, deviations in the liturgy of Sunday Mass should be accounted for in a very clear and straightforward manner. I don’t see that to be the case here.

they have Vatican approved liturgies/Eucharistic services

Is any document available of that?

 

[Trishie]

Years ago I was in a parish where the NCW was introduced, but instead of conducting their meetings during Mass, they held them two evenings a week at separate meetings.
This would seem more appropriate, and puts the focus back where it should be. The Eucharist.
But it was also extreme for parents of busy families, which may be why at least one group, we are informed, hold their meeting within the sacred Eucharist…

The priest tried to urge me to join, but with daily Mass before the children woke, and Sunday Mass, and back to the Church after housework was finished each day! I think my husband might have been tempted to strangle me if I went to two extra meetings a week. The priest wasn’t satisfied, and often I cried after Confession because he seemed to be pressuring me, but in the end he just said, “At least you try. That’s more than some people do.” So that’s my summary of me that has remained ever since, “I try” and when I die, I’ll say to God, “I tried.” Doesn’t mean I succeed or succeeded, but I try.

In general, the sense that I gained from NCW in our parish, was that “we are so much more enlightened than you” average Catholics. And perhaps something in that attitude is what makes the NCW as persuasive and binding as the recent poster indicated. A friend became an NCW priest. He’s long been my adopt-a-priest person. There is much good in NCW, at the same time, there is the danger of being lead along alternative passages of faith.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Is any document available of that?

I can’t reasearch anymore than this. It’s late here. But, here is a Q&A on their norms. Apparently Pope Benedict updated/clarified something in the 2012. There are lots of hits on Google if you search for their norms.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitcatway.htm

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

it was personal testimony after the homily as a way to explain the homily.

The author of the referred topic said this: "This is an extremely good time to talk about what the Word inspired in you about your own life. I always feel like Jesus is listening to me, even if I talk about personal matters.”

This sounds like a discussion of personal matters right after the readings, or the Word had been heard.

 

[Beryllos]

I believe, the lay people’s talk or resonance session as I heard to be called, is after the readings.

Sound like a charismatic thing. Definitely above my pay grade.

I myself prefer to share my resonances outside of the Mass.

 

[jack63]

Honestly, I found that entire thread a little fishy. No doubt the NCW has very different masses, but some of the things in that thread were just off.

So can lay people talk during mass… Yes under some specific circumstances. Does the NCW have permission to do things that can’t happen during regular mass…I don’t know. I’d be interested to know. Was that thread an accurate description of the NCW…I doubt it.

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

When I’ve seen this, it was personal testimony after the homily as a way to explain the homily.

According to information, in the Neocatechumenal mass personal testimonies or resonances are done before the homily of the priest. It is customary, they say, that at any given mass 6-7 lay persons talk about their lives taking turns after each other.

I found the Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way online available:

Statutes of the Neocatechumenal Way

books.google.com

In Article 13 (Eucharist) there are no resonances mentioned, but there is a footnote on the bottom of the page saying:

“All of this is actuated in small communities where reflection on the Word of God and participation in the Eucharist … forms living cells in the church, renew the vitality of the parish through mature Christians capable of witnessing to the truth with a faith which is radically lived.” (Message to the Bishops of Europe gathered in Vienna 12, April 1993)

This does not look like a permission to the NCW to insert testimonies into the mass before the homily was said.

When I’ve seen this, it was personal testimony after the homily as a way to explain the homily.

Here-I-am-Lord:

should not be regular, but allowed on special occassion,

You quoted it. I am sorry, but there is no comma. It says:

the celebration of eucharistic liturgies on special occasions

 

[Here-I-am-Lord]

Thanks for the link! I found the actual instructions here:

http://www.internetica.it/neocatecumenali/english/arinze-letter-interview.htm

About the inserted testimonies by lay people it says:

§2 - “It is permitted to have a brief instruction that helps explain better the liturgy that is being celebrated, and even, in exceptional circumstances, a few testimonies, as long as these conform to the liturgical norms, are offered on the occasion of Eucharistic liturgies celebrated on particular days (for seminarians, the sick, etc.), and are thought truly helpful as an illustration of the regular homily delivered by the celebrating priest. These instructions and testimonies must not assume characteristics that might cause them to be confused with the homily.”

Hmm. Regarding the liturgy of mass, these indults are the same what we had before. Personal testimony or resonance

1. is a form of instruction,
2. should not be regular, but allowed on special occassion, in exceptional circumstances,
3. should explicate the regular homily.

I don’t see any way this session of lay people’s talk could precede the homily of the priest as it apparently happens as a regular practice in NCW.