Laymen involved in the celebration of the Mass

[ncstevem]

My dad was a cabinet maker by trade. When I was a kid (5 or 6 years old) he bought me and my brother a set of kids ‘tools’ so that we could ‘help’ him when he was working on a house project. Of course my brother and I never really accomplished anything productive other than the fact that it allowed us to spend some time with my dad while he worked. I guess it was his version of taking us fishing.

I think of this often when I go to a NO Mass with laymen serving as ‘greetors’, ‘lectors’ or when laymen bring the gifts to the altar or distribute Holy Communion. These laymen really don’t accomplish anything productive.

The concept that Catholics need laymen to ‘greet’ them when they arrive at Mass so they ‘feel’ welcome is rather shallow. Obviously the priest can fulfil the role that laymen do as ‘lectors’ so they really add nothing to the celebration of the Mass. The same holds true for the distribution of Holy Communion.

It’s my observation that many present-day Catholics are motivated by their feelings–just like the culture at large. These laymen ‘feel’ that they are accomplishing something which trumps their actual contrbution to the Mass.

Far more would be accomplished if those in the pews prayed a Rosary together prior to the Mass.

 

[WetCatechumen]

My parish is very crowded, so the ushers, who function as greeters, are essential to getting everyone a seat. If you arrive ten minutes before Mass starts with your wife and two kids, good luck finding a pew with seats for four without them.

Many people are called to a lay vocation, but they still want to participate in other areas of the Mass than praying in the pew. Yes, both are valid, and in reality, everyone there who participates in spirit is participating as much as anyone else, but some people like it. I don’t see any reason to knock it.

Furthermore, if I were to visit an EF Mass, and I weren’t Catholic, I’d be completely shocked. I wouldn’t be able to understand anything. No one would explain anything to me. It’d look like a weird, creepy cult. Greeters could fix that and make people want to come back.

It’s not a useless position. Especially when you need them as ushers.

 

[dmorgan]

I have to agree. The changes that have occured since V-II have de-centralized the Sacrifice and turned the Mass into a “gathering”. I submit for your reading pleasure the following taken from a letter sent to His Holiness Pope Paul VI from Cardinal Ottaviani and Cardinal Bocci in 1969 as the “reform” was taking place:

"The process of desacralisation is completed thanks to the new procedures for the offering: the reference to ordinary not unleavened bread; altar-servers (and lay people at Communion sub utraque specie) being allowed to handle sacred vessels (no. 244d); the distracting atmosphere created by the ceaseless coming and going of the priest, deacon, subdeacon, psalmist, commentator (the priest becomes commentator himself from his constantly being required to ‘explain’ what he is about to accomplish) - of readings (men and women), of servers or laymen welcoming people at the door and escorting them to their places whilst others carry and sort offerings. And in the midst of all this prescribed activity, the ‘mulier idonea’ (anti-Scriptural and anti-Pauline) who for the first time in the tradition of the Church will be authorised to read the lessons and also perform other “ministeria quae extra presbyterium peraguntur” (no. 70). "

You can read the entire letter here:
fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html

We have lived through a removal of the Sacredness from the Mass and inso doing allowed it to become a protestant gathering. This is the very reason that His Holiness Pope Saint Pius V issued “Quo Primum” to set forth unalterable requirements for the conduct of the Mass in response to the protestant reformation. Read it in its entirety here:

fisheaters.com/quoprimum.html

People argue that the Tridentine Mass was old and stale; I argue that what was stale was the faithfull. If the Sacredness of the Sacrifice of the Mass can be changed just to “keep up with the times” what else will we allow to change? If you argue that the Church needed to change to be more evangelical and reach more people, just who are you trying to reach? And what will you teach them when you do?

At my NO Mass today one of our Deacons delivered the Homily, as he does every third Sunday. He gave a good Homily on St. Peter and his renewal in faith as descibed in the Gospel today, and he expounded on the Gospel using commentary which he( his words) received from a protestant pastor friend. The commentary differed from what I have read in Catholic commentaries on the same Scripture. I guess if I boil down all of my misgivings about what has happened to Holy Mother Church in the U.S. since V-II it comes down to this: Are we still Catholic, in the tradition of what Catholic was proir to V-II, or are we Catholic light, or just another form of protestantism?

 

[Dylpickleh8]

My dad was a cabinet maker by trade. When I was a kid (5 or 6 years old) he bought me and my brother a set of kids ‘tools’ so that we could ‘help’ him when he was working on a house project. Of course my brother and I never really accomplished anything productive other than the fact that it allowed us to spend some time with my dad while he worked. I guess it was his version of taking us fishing.

I think of this often when I go to a NO Mass with laymen serving as ‘greetors’, ‘lectors’ or when laymen bring the gifts to the altar or distribute Holy Communion. These laymen really don’t accomplish anything productive.

The concept that Catholics need laymen to ‘greet’ them when they arrive at Mass so they ‘feel’ welcome is rather shallow. Obviously the priest can fulfil the role that laymen do as ‘lectors’ so they really add nothing to the celebration of the Mass. The same holds true for the distribution of Holy Communion.

It’s my observation that many present-day Catholics are motivated by their feelings–just like the culture at large. These laymen ‘feel’ that they are accomplishing something which trumps their actual contrbution to the Mass.

Far more would be accomplished if those in the pews prayed a Rosary together prior to the Mass.

So… What’s the problem exactly?
From what I understand, you’d rather not have laymen involved?
Well, I see nothing wrong with Greeters, the priest needs some time to get ready.
Our parish is rather large, and If laymen didn’t help the priest distribute the Eucharist, it would take all day to get through communion.

 

[Corki]

Every EF Mass I have ever attended, including those before the OF Missal, had ushers who also greeted parishioners when they arrived. As far as I can recall, none of them were ordained; they were all laymen. This isn’t a “NO” issue.

 

[Beachcomber]

The need for ushers is real and it’s a ministry. I am in awe of a really great usher–he can discern where there’s ‘room for one more’ in a pew and corkscrew the person in there. Absolutely amazing.

 

[corsair]

I agree that the Layman/woman is a whole lot “overused”. Just look at the EF Mass. The priest reads the epistle and the Gospel (most of the times in both Latin and native tongue). He alone gives communion with the assistance of an Altar boy or perhaps a Deacon. Why can’t the OF priest do the same?

When I do go to the OF Mass I only receieve from the priest. In the last 40 years I can count on my hands the number of times I have received from a lay minister. (less than 10).

Sure there is a place for the laity as ushers but I’m not for laity in the Sanctuary. Altar boys excepted.

If that bothers some folks well, sorry. But that is my Opinion.

 

[malphono]

I agree that the Layman/woman is a whole lot “overused”. Just look at the EF Mass. The priest reads the epistle and the Gospel (most of the times in both Latin and native tongue). He alone gives communion with the assistance of an Altar boy or perhaps a Deacon. Why can’t the OF priest do the same?

When I do go to the OF Mass I only receieve from the priest. In the last 40 years I can count on my hands the number of times I have received from a lay minister. (less than 10).

Sure there is a place for the laity as ushers but I’m not for laity in the Sanctuary. Altar boys excepted.

If that bothers some folks well, sorry. But that is my Opinion.

 

[tee_eff_em]

It’s my observation that many present-day Catholics are motivated by their feelings–just like the culture at large. These laymen ‘feel’ that they are accomplishing something which trumps their actual contrbution to the Mass.

Far more would be accomplished if those in the pews prayed a Rosary together prior to the Mass.

It is a tough call.

Are laymen who serve as readers, EMsHC, greeters, et cetera putting themselves above the people in the pews?

Or are those who attribute that motivation to them, and call them on it, doing so?

cf Luke 18:10-14

Perhaps our experiences differ, in which case we shall need agree to disagree, but I have never (or at best: rarely) encountered readers, EMsHC, greeters, and the like who believe themselves to be better than the average parishioner.

:twocents:
tee

 

[Monica4316]

I think that it’s really not necessary to always have Eucharistic ministers. If there’s a huge parish and one priest, perhaps it might help to have the deacons help out. But often what I see happening is MANY Eucharistic ministers as well as several priests and deacons.

 

[PJM]

=ncstevem;6541041]My dad was a cabinet maker by trade. When I was a kid (5 or 6 years old) he bought me and my brother a set of kids ‘tools’ so that we could ‘help’ him when he was working on a house project. Of course my brother and I never really accomplished anything productive other than the fact that it allowed us to spend some time with my dad while he worked. I guess it was his version of taking us fishing.

I think of this often when I go to a NO Mass with laymen serving as ‘greetors’, ‘lectors’ or when laymen bring the gifts to the altar or distribute Holy Communion. These laymen really don’t accomplish anything productive.

The concept that Catholics need laymen to ‘greet’ them when they arrive at Mass so they ‘feel’ welcome is rather shallow. Obviously the priest can fulfil the role that laymen do as ‘lectors’ so they really add nothing to the celebration of the Mass. The same holds true for the distribution of Holy Communion.

It’s my observation that many present-day Catholics are motivated by their feelings–just like the culture at large. These laymen ‘feel’ that they are accomplishing something which trumps their actual contrbution to the Mass.

Far more would be accomplished if those in the pews prayed a Rosary together prior to the Mass.

Sadly you are CORRECT

The Novus Ordo is a stage production, more that a Sacrifice of Worship. It seems that the more players one has the greater the production. How every sad! How very un -Godly!

 

[Onegin]

I think that it’s really not necessary to always have Eucharistic ministers. If there’s a huge parish and one priest, perhaps it might help to have the deacons help out. But often what I see happening is MANY Eucharistic ministers as well as several priests and deacons.

I thought there was a reason for the “E” on the EMHC.

After all, some people call the TLM the “extraordinary form” and, sadly, its use is more the exception than the rule. On the other hand, lay Eucharistic ministers are the rule in most parishes rather than the exception.

And yet both are called “Extraordinary.” Right.

 

[PatriceA]

I think that it’s really not necessary to always have Eucharistic ministers. If there’s a huge parish and one priest, perhaps it might help to have the deacons help out. But often what I see happening is MANY Eucharistic ministers as well as several priests and deacons.

Not every parish has multiple priests or even any deacons. And in the case of my parish, our priest is older, and not as much spring in his step as there was a year ago. It is the biggest parish in the area, but until the Bishop decides to send us another priest, he definitely needs the Eucharistic ministers…and the readers…and everyone else that is essential at this moment for the mass.

 

[mick321]

My dad was a cabinet maker by trade. When I was a kid (5 or 6 years old) he bought me and my brother a set of kids ‘tools’ so that we could ‘help’ him when he was working on a house project. Of course my brother and I never really accomplished anything productive other than the fact that it allowed us to spend some time with my dad while he worked. I guess it was his version of taking us fishing.

I think of this often when I go to a NO Mass with laymen serving as ‘greetors’, ‘lectors’ or when laymen bring the gifts to the altar or distribute Holy Communion. These laymen really don’t accomplish anything productive.

The concept that Catholics need laymen to ‘greet’ them when they arrive at Mass so they ‘feel’ welcome is rather shallow. Obviously the priest can fulfil the role that laymen do as ‘lectors’ so they really add nothing to the celebration of the Mass. The same holds true for the distribution of Holy Communion.

It’s my observation that many present-day Catholics are motivated by their feelings–just like the culture at large. These laymen ‘feel’ that they are accomplishing something which trumps their actual contrbution to the Mass.

Far more would be accomplished if those in the pews prayed a Rosary together prior to the Mass.

Persons.

In the Novus Ordo the proper term is layPERSONS.

 

[ProVobis]

Persons.

In the Novus Ordo the proper term is layPERSONS.

It’s laymen when taking up collections.

 

[ChurchTorch]

My dad was a cabinet maker by trade. When I was a kid (5 or 6 years old) he bought me and my brother a set of kids ‘tools’ so that we could ‘help’ him when he was working on a house project. Of course my brother and I never really accomplished anything productive other than the fact that it allowed us to spend some time with my dad while he worked. I guess it was his version of taking us fishing.

I think of this often when I go to a NO Mass with laymen serving as ‘greetors’, ‘lectors’ or when laymen bring the gifts to the altar or distribute Holy Communion. These laymen really don’t accomplish anything productive.

The concept that Catholics need laymen to ‘greet’ them when they arrive at Mass so they ‘feel’ welcome is rather shallow. Obviously the priest can fulfil the role that laymen do as ‘lectors’ so they really add nothing to the celebration of the Mass. The same holds true for the distribution of Holy Communion.

It’s my observation that many present-day Catholics are motivated by their feelings–just like the culture at large. These laymen ‘feel’ that they are accomplishing something which trumps their actual contrbution to the Mass.

Far more would be accomplished if those in the pews prayed a Rosary together prior to the Mass.

What a horribly harsh, ignorant and erroneous viewpoint you hold.

To suggest that laypersons “don’t accomplish anything productive” when they serve as ushers/greeters, gift bearers or especially readers or EMsHC at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is profoundly wrong and sad.

The office of reading the OT, psalm and NT epistles at the Mass is correctly the office of the layperson, NOT the ordained. I think this is supported by the encyclical Divino Efflante Spiritu. You’ve studied Divino, right? To suggest that lay readers “don’t accomplish anything productive” in reading the word of God is unfathomable. It actually seems mean-spirited also.

To suggest the licit use of EMsHC “don’t accomplish anything productive” in distributing the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ is doubly unfathomable. I won’t dignify your misplaced comment about the Rosary with a comment.

I would hope you would speak to your spiritual adviser as soon as possible on your confusion. If you don’t have a SA, you need to locate a good one.

I’m curious – do you mean to offend others?

 

[ChurchTorch]

Every EF Mass I have ever attended, including those before the OF Missal, had ushers who also greeted parishioners when they arrived. As far as I can recall, none of them were ordained; they were all laymen. This isn’t a “NO” issue.

Heck, the EF used to have the minor order of “porter” that was essentially a high-falootin’ usher.

 

[ChurchTorch]

I think that it’s really not necessary to always have Eucharistic ministers. If there’s a huge parish and one priest, perhaps it might help to have the deacons help out. But often what I see happening is MANY Eucharistic ministers as well as several priests and deacons.

You statement makes no sense.

What if there are no deacons which is often the case?

Why just to “MANY Eucharistic ministers?”

Why not address the case where a licit number of EMsHC are employed along with clergy to reverently distribute communion?

 

[Indyann]

My dad was a cabinet maker by trade. When I was a kid (5 or 6 years old) he bought me and my brother a set of kids ‘tools’ so that we could ‘help’ him when he was working on a house project. Of course my brother and I never really accomplished anything productive other than the fact that it allowed us to spend some time with my dad while he worked. I guess it was his version of taking us fishing.

I think of this often when I go to a NO Mass with laymen serving as ‘greetors’, ‘lectors’ or when laymen bring the gifts to the altar or distribute Holy Communion. These laymen really don’t accomplish anything productive.

The concept that Catholics need laymen to ‘greet’ them when they arrive at Mass so they ‘feel’ welcome is rather shallow. Obviously the priest can fulfil the role that laymen do as ‘lectors’ so they really add nothing to the celebration of the Mass. The same holds true for the distribution of Holy Communion.

It’s my observation that many present-day Catholics are motivated by their feelings–just like the culture at large. These laymen ‘feel’ that they are accomplishing something which trumps their actual contrbution to the Mass.

Far more would be accomplished if those in the pews prayed a Rosary together prior to the Mass.

Why is this posted in the “Traditional” sub-forum? I thought this forum was to discuss the pre-VatII Church?

Seems you want to have your cake and eat it too?

 

[At_Trent]

I think that it’s really not necessary to always have Eucharistic ministers. If there’s a huge parish and one priest, perhaps it might help to have the deacons help out. But often what I see happening is MANY Eucharistic ministers as well as several priests and deacons.

Not sure why, but today at the EF I attend on Sunday, I watched as a 94 old priest gave Communion to hundreds by himself. There is usually a Deacon or another priest there to help. He seemed exhausted by the time all had received, and for the last few minutes of Communion I prayed for him.

On weekdays, the OF I attend has EMHC’s for a group of 45-60 I really find that to be excessive.