Laymen involved in the celebration of the Mass

[ProVobis]

My reading of things is that he privately expressed concerns to Pope Paul. Once the ordo was in its final form he didn’t believe anyone could be scandalised.

Very strange indeed.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I don’t have a problem with the laity going up to read the lessons, provided they never read the Gospel.

I do, however, see an increasing problem with EMHCs. I think it is a grand and holy thing that they take Holy Communion to the sick in hospitals or shut-ins, and in my parish, which is very large and has multiple Sunday Masses (8 for the entire weekend), the priests need someone to help distribute Holy Communion. We only have our pastor, BUT…we have two supply priests (retired) and two priests in residence whose sole ministry are the hospitals (quite a few and spread out in different regions of the Las Vegas Valley). I don’t understand why we can’t use the supply priests to help distribute Holy Communion (and pay them, they get a stipend for saying Mass, I believe) or the hospital chaplains (unless they are called to the hospital, of course, maybe that’s why). I also don’t understand why the permanent diaconate does not seem to be much encouraged here (I think it should be everywhere), as there wouldn’t be a problem if every parish had two or three deacons. The role of EMHC only exists because of a shortage of priests.

The growing concern I have is this: While a lot of EMHCs probably approach the task with humility or with at least a notion of being of service, I think a good chunk of them have come to regard it as their balliwick. At my parish, I can see from the choir loft (I sing in our Schola) where the EMHCs gather after the Agnus Dei, at the foot of the steps to the sanctuary, while the priest is making his Holy Communion. Sometimes, someone won’t show up for their alloted service or they may be hung up at the back, trying to make it to the front. There’s always a few EMHCs in the congregation who aren’t slotted for that Mass, but they’ll start looking around to see who’s going up, with much the air of a grey hound that’s caught the scent of a rabbit. They’ll start up the aisle, then realize the person scheduled DID in fact make it to the front, and have to turn back to their seat. I don’t want to attribut false motive nor to be uncharitable, but there seems to be about them an attitude of “can’t wait to perform” or “this is my balliwick,” etc. I’m probably not explaining this well, but it bothers me.

Additionally, every priest I’ve ever received Holy Communion from, liberal to orthodox, performs the sacred task with an air of detachment. They are generally expressionless and quiet and detached, as though they seem to understand that at that point, they AREN’T the point (no matter how much some of them grandstanded through the homily or stamped the Holy Sacrifice with their own “flavor”). Some EMHCs do this as well, but a lot of them seem to regard this as a time of “encounter,” which it certainly is…but not with them. They smile with this steady warmth (which makes me automatically suspicious) that seems to say, "God loves you, "which I know is true, but I don’t need them to tell me that, the One they’re holding in their hands will do the job. They seem to think they’ve got to make this moment “special,” which it already was and their idea of “special” can only detract from It. And it bothers me that they still touch people on the head and say, “God bless you.” Shouldn’t be happening.

I don’t mean to impugn anyone’s motives, but I guess I said all that to say that I hope we encourage vocations to the priesthood AND the permanent diaconate (and that both have solid, orthodox formation) so that EMHCs will gradually not be needed (and I think they are abused now), except for hospital/shut in visits in large cities (in small towns, can’t priests still do it?). I think the lines are becoming serioiusly blurred.

 

[At_Trent]

Let’s remember that we are only obligated to receive Communion once a year. Rather than lowering the reverence due to the Blessed Sacrament, in parishes without priests people should pray for vocations. If we restore the liturgy it will attract more priests.

Yes, Spiritual Communion is so often overlooked as a means of gaining Grace.

In order to facilitate a practice of such great excellence, ponder what I have to say. When the priest is about to give himself Communion in holy Mass, do you, keeping composed externally and internally, excite in your heart an act of true contrition, and humbly striking your breast, in token that you acknowledge yourself unworthy of so great a grace, make all those acts of love, of self-surrender, of humility, and the rest, which you are accustomed to make when you communicate sacramentally, and then desire with a lively longing to receive your good Jesus, veiled in the sacrament for your benefit. And to kindle your devotion, imagine that most holy Mary, or some saint, your holy advocate, is holding forth to you the sacred particle; figure yourself receiving it, and then, embracing Jesus in your heart, reply to Him, over and over again, with interior words prompted by love: “Come, Jesus, my Beloved, come within this my poor heart; come and satiate my desires; come and sanctify my soul; come, most sweet Jesus, come!” This said, be still; contemplate your good God within you, and, as if you really had communicated, adore Him, thank Him, and perform all those interior acts to which you are accustomed after sacramental Communion.
St. Leonard of Port-Maurice

Spiritual Communion is a pious practice, and it’s a shame it has been forgotten by so many Roman Catholics. And really, it is the answer to most of the reasons given arguing the need for EMHC. The Church had already addressed the matter !

And yes, reverence does produce priests, or at the very least discernment to vocation. It’s been a delight to watch as the EF I attend has moved from nearly all older adult servers to younger men and boys. Even the weekday OF Mass there has young male servers in proper attire. That parish will produce a few priests.

I’d bet this one did

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[ProVobis]

Spiritual Communion is a pious practice, and it’s a shame it has been forgotten by so many Roman Catholics.

It sure is. From the Catechism of Trent

Threefold Manner Of Communicating
That the faithful may learn to be zealous for the better gifts, they must be shown who can obtain these abundant fruits from the Holy Eucharist, must be reminded that there is not only one way of communicating. Wisely and rightly, then, did our predecessors in the faith, as we read in the Council of Trent, distinguish three ways of receiving this Sacrament.

Some receive it sacramentally only. Such are those sinners who do not fear to approach the holy mysteries with polluted lips and heart, who, as the Apostle says, eat and drink the Lord’s body unworthily. Of this class of communicants St. Augustine says: He who dwells not in Christ, and in whom Christ dwells not, most certainly does not eat spiritually His flesh, although carnally and visibly he press with his teeth the Sacrament of His flesh and blood. Those, therefore, who receive the sacred mysteries with such a disposition, not only obtain no fruit therefrom, but, as the Apostle himself testifies, eat and drink judgment to themselves.

Others are said to receive the Eucharist in spirit only. They are those who, inflamed with a lively faith which worketh by charity,’ partake in wish and desire of that celestial bread offered to them, from which they receive, if not the entire, at least very great fruits.

Lastly, there are some who receive the Holy Eucharist both sacramentally and spiritually, those who, according to the teaching of the Apostle, having first proved themselves and having approached this divine banquet adorned with the nuptial garment, derive from the Eucharist those most abundant fruits which we have already described. Hence it is clear that those who, having it in their power to receive with fitting preparation the Sacrament of the body of the Lord, are yet satisfied with a spiritual Communion only, deprive themselves of the greatest and most heavenly advantages.

 

[At_Trent]

It sure is. From the Catechism of Trent

There you have it

 

[Ockham]

I don’t mean to impugn anyone’s motives, but I guess I said all that to say that I hope we encourage vocations to the priesthood AND the permanent diaconate (and that both have solid, orthodox formation) so that EMHCs will gradually not be needed (and I think they are abused now), except for hospital/shut in visits in large cities (in small towns, can’t priests still do it?). I think the lines are becoming serioiusly blurred.

The lines are indeed being blurred: the clericalization of the laity and the laitization of the clergy. Is it any wonder why the NO seminaries are empty when the role of the priest has been diminshed to such a degree? It seems some people want them to be not much more than a poorly paid social workers.

When there is an actual need for EMHC (the minority of parishes) I think the servers should fulfill that role. Then we wouldn’t have the distraction of laity busting out of the pews, shaking hands with one another behind the altar table, and lowering the reverence due to the Blessed Sacrament. More Catholic might believe in Transubstantiation - lex orandi, lex credenti.

 

[malphono]

When there is an actual need for EMHC (the minority of parishes) I think the servers should fulfill that role.

Not a bad idea in principle, but one problem I see is that the bulk of servers are a little young, and that would open up another whole can of worms.

 

[mardukm]

If someone was dying and they wanted but there was no one to hear their confession their sins would not keep them from eternal life.

If I was in such a situation, I would sure what to receive Holy Communion – even if it was from a duly commissioned laywoman.

Good post! The Council of Trent taught that in extraordinary cases, a layperson can touch the Holy Body and Blood, and your scenario would certainly qualify as an extraordinary case.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ProVobis]

The big can of worms was opened up slowly when people no longer felt the need to go to confession before receiving communion. That and the reduction of the fast put undue stress on priests (and deacons) as I see it. This is true even in the EF, where today perhaps 80-85% receive. In the 50’s when I served we didn’t normally have more than 3 communion rails worth of communicants, even though the church overflowed with balcony-filled and standing-only people. I know because my arm would hurt on holding the paten if there were too many and it hardly ever did.

If we do get more priests, hopefully we’ll also have increasing number of people in the confession lines as well.

 

[ProVobis]

Good post! The Council of Trent taught that in extraordinary cases, a layperson can touch the Holy Body and Blood, and your scenario would certainly qualify as an extraordinary case.

So much obsession with laypeople touching the Body and Blood of Christ. Did the Council of Trent tell you it was okay to receive communion with unconfessed mortal sins on your soul too?

 

[Ockham]

Not a bad idea in principle, but one problem I see is that the bulk of servers are a little young, and that would open up another whole can of worms.

The first can that comes to mind is height (for those wishing to receive on tongue while standing).

If the priest is elderly or Communion would take half an hour, then I can see a better argument for EMHCs. However, most parishes I visit get Communion over as quickly as possible. Many people line up for coffee in the morning, a hamburger at lunch, tickets to concerts or sporting events, book signings, etc. Why must there be this express line to God? I wonder what the lineup to get into heaven is like? Do people mind waiting?

 

[mardukm]

So much obsession with laypeople touching the Body and Blood of Christ. Did the Council of Trent tell you it was okay to receive communion with unconfessed mortal sins on your soul too?

I’m sure you can use Trent to justify anything you want to believe with your imagination.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[choy]

What’s the problem with waiting for Jesus?

there wouldn’t be a problem
but in the cases of large parishes, for sure there are other masses. you can’t bump other masses just because the priest has to distribute communion to a thousand people alone

in smaller parishes its not a problem, the priest alone can distribute communion to the hundred or so in the Church. but a big Church thats full, definitely you’d have more than one mass a day.

 

[choy]

That seems to be a problem in itself. With many Catholics believing it’s okay to practice ABC, missing Mass, spreading gossip, committing sins of the flesh, not doing penance on Friday, not believing in the Real Presence, etc. how do so many justify receiving communion? This is not a judgemental issue. Look at the confession lines and do the math; they are not 1000 people receiving worthily. And why is this continued to be tolerated in the Church?

then what are you suggesting?

and yes, i think you did make judgemental statement. we do not know the state of the souls of these people, or anyone elses except ours. they could have gone to confession during the week, or maybe they do not commit any grave sins. we don’t know. we can’t know, so don’t complain about it

if they think they’re worthy, who are we to say otherwise? they go and receive communion, thats it.

to be honest, lets be happy that the Church has this problem of too many people. rather than being in Church with a capacity for 2500, and only have 100 or so people attending. yes, there is still the problem of lack of priests, but at least there are still a lot of people going to Church

the problem of a church having 6-8 masses a day and each mass is a SRO (standing room only) mass is not a bad problem to have. lets just pray for more priests and deacons

 

[ProVobis]

I’m sure you can use Trent to justify anything you want to believe with your imagination.

Sounds as if you don’t care much for Trent. :takethat:

 

[Ockham]

the problem of a church having 6-8 masses a day and each mass is a SRO (standing room only) mass is not a bad problem to have. lets just pray for more priests and deacons

This church you speak of is rare. Most churches are practically empty on Sunday and most parishes have two Sunday Masses. In Quebec churches are closing so fast they can’t even give them away.

It was once the privilidge of the priest alone to touch the Blessed Sacrament. Now that anyone can it has diminished his role and lead to a declining belief in the Real Presence.

While none of us can truly say if everyone in the Communion line is in a state of grace, we can draw conclusions from the numbers. Most parishes that I’m aware of offer Confession on Saturdays and maybe one week night. When I go there’s not many people and certainly no lineups. Unless I’m the only sinner left in the world then it’s safe to conclude many people are receiving Holy Communion inappropriately.

 

[mardukm]

This church you speak of is rare. Most churches are practically empty on Sunday and most parishes have two Sunday Masses. In Quebec churches are closing so fast they can’t even give them away.

So you don’t think the depression of the past two years has anything to do with it? Apparently, every religious body in Quebec has had to suffer similar losses. Unless there is a mass movement to atheism in Quebec, I find your claim untenable.

It was once the privilidge of the priest alone to touch the Blessed Sacrament. Now that anyone can it has diminished his role and lead to a declining belief in the Real Presence.

Can you offer a credible Catholic source for this statement?

While none of us can truly say if everyone in the Communion line is in a state of grace, we can draw conclusions from the numbers. Most parishes that I’m aware of offer Confession on Saturdays and maybe one week night. When I go there’s not many people and certainly no lineups. Unless I’m the only sinner left in the world then it’s safe to conclude many people are receiving Holy Communion inappropriately.

C’est tres drole. I personally can’t imagine going to confession and then making such judgments.

Blessings.

 

[ProVobis]

So you don’t think the depression of the past two years has anything to do with it? Apparently, every religious body in Quebec has had to suffer similar losses. Unless there is a mass movement to atheism in Quebec, I find your claim untenable.

The depression certainly cuts down on the contributions. It shouldn’t affect attendance much. The revelations of more sex scandals could probably be blamed for lower attendance going forward though.

I personally can’t imagine going to confession and then making such judgments.

Not judgmental at all. Simple math unless the Church has now ruled that there is no such thing as mortal sin. Last I heard ABC, sins of the flesh, skipping Mass, no penance on Fridays, needless gossip and such are still grave matter that all need to be confessed to a priest. If 98% of those in attendance receive, the odds against everyone there receiving being free from unconfessed sins must be astronomical. And laypeople aren’t given the power to absolve sin but can sure add to it.

 

[Phemie]

The depression certainly cuts down on the contributions. It shouldn’t affect attendance much. The revelations of more sex scandals could probably be blamed for lower attendance going forward though.

While the abuse scandal might account for it, Québec is a special case. The ‘Révolution tranquille’ certainly contributed to the decline in attendance and a backlash against the Church. The revision of the Civil Code has also led to a decrease in marriage, both religious and civil.

Not judgmental at all. Simple math unless the Church has now ruled that there is no such thing as mortal sin. Last I heard ABC, sins of the flesh, skipping Mass, no penance on Fridays, needless gossip and such are still grave matter that all need to be confessed to a priest. If 98% of those in attendance receive, the odds against everyone there receiving being free from unconfessed sins must be astronomical. And laypeople aren’t given the power to absolve sin but can sure add to it.

But there is little talk of sin in the churches today. When’s the last time you heard a priest mention the sin of ABC in church? I’ve never heard it mentioned and I was given a priest’s blessing to use ABC ‘if I had good reason’ back when I was 18. Do you think for a moment that those of us who were given that advice ever revisited it? Enquired further? Doubt it.

While we might feel we’re looking at ‘sinners’, we must not forget that mortal sin requires three things and with the formation the kids have received in the last 30 years I doubt that many have the knowledge required. I’ve had English-speaking students tell me that a non-married person cannot break all 10 commandments since one only applies to married people.

In front of the class I asked the question of a priest when I was in high school “If I don’t think something is a sin, is it?” He answered, “No.” There was no discussion of informed conscience or anything else, just a straight out ‘No.’ This was a priest ordained before Vatican II. I know better now, but for many years I didn’t know the difference. Keep that in mind when you judge those who line up for communion.

 

[Ockham]

So you don’t think the depression of the past two years has anything to do with it? Apparently, every religious body in Quebec has had to suffer similar losses. Unless there is a mass movement to atheism in Quebec, I find your claim untenable.

I find your claim that the recession of these past two years is the reason Quebec churches are closing.

thestar.com/news/canada/article/594474

"The fire sale of Catholic churches in Quebec continues unabated; they are victims of a population that, more than elsewhere in Canada, has turned its back on organized religion.

Fewer than 10 per cent actually attend mass. "

Can you offer a credible Catholic source for this statement?

What kind of source are you looking for?

C’est tres drole. I personally can’t imagine going to confession and then making such judgments.

It’s worth repeating: do the math. I’m not making any judgements, just conclusions.