Lazarus and the Rich Man

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Personally, I do not envision those in hell as being concerned about the eternal welfare of others - that is, concerned for others and desiring that they should go to heaven.
I repeat–that is a terrible interpretation to say that he is suddenly concerned for his brothers. He is concerned for himself. He scandalized his brothers. Read what St Nicholai says in post #9.
The rich man’s actions are in conformity with this teaching.
He is praying to no one. You are doing damage to the reading.
 
I would argue you are way off. The rich man appears to be in Hell. Just because the gates of Heaven were not open, doesn’t mean the gates of Hell were not wide open.

There is nothing venial about his sins. They went against natural law, like taking pity on your brother. His sin was extra grevious because that was one of his people that he rejected.

Purgatory does not fit this passage because purgatory is a plate/state that AFTER those who have been granted Heaven must be purified. So on in the literal sense, He is not talking about purgatory.
Okay where is the proof that they were either?
 
I repeat–that is a terrible interpretation to say that he is suddenly concerned for his brothers. He is concerned for himself. He scandalized his brothers. Read what St Nicholai says in post #9.
He is praying to no one. You are doing damage to the reading.
Mickey why is it when someone disagree’s with you, you always pass judgement on them. Please do not say your are not. Tellling someone they are doing damage is your judgement on them.
 
Show me proof that being lost means you are in a deliberate state of Mortal sin?
I will let the saints speak again as I have been.

The rich ,an’s soul was full of sores as Lazarus’ body. His soul was a true image of Lazarus’ body, and Lazarus’ body was a true image of his soul. God thus placed two men on earth to be a mirror the one one of the other: one in the mansion and the other at its gate. The rich man’s outward splendour mirrored Lazarus’inner state, and Lazarus’ outward suppurating sores mirrored the rich man’s inner state.
St Nicholai Velimirovich


The rich man, who was being condemned for the enormity of his sins, Probably thought: ‘I have sinned greatly, But what is the reason For my being roasted here in the fire without any pity?’ When the Lord, Who knows all, hears these words, He revealed to the sinner the cause of his punishment. For while he was in Hades he looked on high, And he saw Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham. Then he recognized the man who formerly was poor, and was amazed as he saw The one whom he scorned on earth, while he enjoyed himself and did not cry: 'Have pity, Lord.'
St Romanos the Melodist

By this omission of the rich man’s name, He (the Lord) revealed a heavenly mystery. The name of such a rich man will be unknown in heaven. It will not be mentioned among the angels and saints; it will be blotted out of the Book of Life.
St Nicholai Velimirovich (on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man)



By this [wanting to help his brothers] he revealed a particular sin of his: the scandalizing of others. He was in hell, not only because he was unmerciful to Lazarus but also because, by his light-minded life, he had given an evil example to his brothers, and thus brought them to ruin, opening the way to hell to them also. To be the cause of scandal to others is a terrible sin. To slip oneself and drag others down with one deserves a far fiercer condemnation than to slip oneself…He wanted Lazarus to come to him and forgive him, and then to put right his sin against his brothers. Then his flames would be soothed and his torments eased. This plea, then, he made to Abraham not so much for his brothers’ sake as his own.
St Nicholai Velimirovich



In the same way reason with yourself concerning the rich and the avaricious. Robbers lie in wait in the way and plunder travellers, and hide the wealth of others in their own lurking-places----in caves or dens. Do not, therefore, think them happy on account of the present, but miserable on account of the future----on account of the fearful judgment, the inevitable account to be rendered----the outer darkness which will envelop them. Even though robbers often escape the hand of men, yet, notwithstanding though we know this, we deprecate for ourselves such a life as theirs, or even for our enemies we should deprecate such an accursed prosperity. Yet with respect to God such a thing cannot be said. No one can escape His judgment, but all who in any way live in covetousness and rapine will undergo the punishment allotted by Him----that deathless punishment which has no end,----in the same way as also did this rich man.
St John
** Chrysostom (on Lazarus and the Rich Man)**

Still it came to pass that a man living in wickedness and inhumanity enjoyed every kind of good fortune, and a just and virtuous man lingered in the greatest ills. For that Lazarus was a just man is made plain, as in the other case, by his end, and even before his end, by his patience and poverty. Do you not, indeed, seem to see these things present before our eyes? The ship of the rich man was laden with merchandise, and sailed with a fair wind. But do not marvel; for it was borne on to shipwreck, since he was not willing to bestow its burden wisely. Would you that I should give another proof of his wickedness? It is his living in luxury every day without fear. For this in truth is the height of wickedness; and not only now, (in this dispensation,) when we are required to show such moderation, but even in the beginning, under the old covenant, when there was no revelation of the need of this self-control. For hear what the prophet says: “Woe to them that come to an evil day, that come near, and that make a Sabbath of lies,” (Amos vi. 3, LXX.)
St John
Chrysostom
 
You would be arguing incorrectly. There is often a literal interpretation–as in the verses we are discussing.
True or False:

Every time Jesus explains a parable, he explains it allegorically.
 
Mickey why is it when someone disagree’s with you, you always pass judgement on them. Please do not say your are not. Tellling someone they are doing damage is your judgement on them.
I am not passing judgement.

Going against Sacred Tradition is doing damage to the Scriptures. Frankly, I am shocked and disappointed that you and a couple others have adopted a protestant outlook to interpreting Scripture. 😦
 
True or False:

Every time Jesus explains a parable, he explains it allegorically.
If you have more to say about Lazarus and the rich man, then say it.

If you want to start debating the meaning of parables–start a thread.
 
If you have more to say about Lazarus and the rich man, then say it.

If you want to start debating the meaning of parables–start a thread.
Your inability to answer a simple question that is obviously relevant to the discussion is very telling.
 
Okay Mickey. My question again is, If the rich man is indeed in hell, how can he see Abraham. You can not be in hell, and look up and see heaven. Heaven and hell are completely separated.

And if he is indeed in hell, why would he even think he had a chance of Abraham ( a just man mind you ) even being able to help him. Especially if he knew his fate. why bother?
 
I am not passing judgement.

Going against Sacred Tradition is doing damage to the Scriptures. Frankly, I am shocked and disappointed that you and a couple others have adopted a protestant outlook to interpreting Scripture. 😦
How does a disagreement on interpreting a specific verse of Scripture shock you ? How does a disagreement on how to interpret specific verses of Scripture somehow become interpreting Scripture in the Protestant way? As I said its an interesting debate but you’re reading way much into it.

One thing we know for sure is the Catholic Church has no official interpretation of this parable and we are free to interpret it any way we want as long as such interpretation does not contradict Catholic doctrine. And there is nothing Protestant about that
 
Indeed. Whether the interpretation is allegorical or literal, Mickey would seem to be wrong in his interpretation.
Here is my point. First of all this does have to do with purgatory. That is how me and Mickey got here. I believe that purgatory indeed exists, and I think this parable can help confirm that.

Here again is my point, Okay once in hell we are not getting out, But why would the rich man even ask Abraham or Lazarus to help him if he did not believe in intercession. Next what good would Lazarus’s intercession or Abraham’s do if he indeed was not in purgatory. Purgatory is what we call the final cleansing place. But as we all know from Job intercession works. We can pray our dead out of purgatory. Now Abraham was righteous, so was Lazarus because they were together. I admit the rich man is not where anyone WANTS to be. But it could be worse. It was in a temporal torment. But it had to be purgatory again because he felt help would do him good.
 
You can not be in hell, and look up and see heaven.
Round and round. :whacky:
I have answered this so many times—so has Mardukm.

Foretaste of hell means headed for hell. Foretaste of heaven means headed for heaven. Is that clear enough for you?

And if he is indeed in hell, why would he even think he had a chance of Abraham ( a just man mind you ) even being able to help him. Did Abraham help him?

This is becoming somewhat humorous. You are very much like Kempston. 😃
 
LOL! You have as made a new fundamentalist friend. Perhaps you will have much in common. :rotfl:
At least we can try to see what the other one is saying, and how it can tie into scripture of the Church.

Beats start a new thread pal.:hmmm:
 
Start a thread pal.
From the OP:
What say the rest of you? I would like to read replies from Catholics, protestants, and Orthodox.
Mickey, make up your mind(s). Do you want to hear from everyone, or not? You asked for different interpretations; I gave you mine.
 
Indeed. Whether the interpretation is allegorical or literal, Mickey would seem to be wrong in his interpretation.
Whatever you say kempy. I have saints and church fathers supporting my stance.

You have rinnie. 😃
 
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