Lazarus and the Rich Man

[Mickey]

I am perplexed about something. It seems that many Roman Catholics have a major misunderstanding about the meaning of this parable. Some people think that it is a proof of purgatory. Others think that the rich man is able to repent** AFTER** he dies. As a Roman Catholic, I do not recall ever being taught about this parable. But as an Eastern Catholic (and now Orthodox) there are very deep and meaninful teachings on this parable (the Eastern Catholic is in line with the Orthodox).

Does the Roman Catholic Church have an official interpretation of this parable? I will post comments from steve B who thinks it is purgatory and that the rich man is showing perfect charity in the after life!

Then there is the post by rinnie that makes reference to a “sincere” rich man showing repentance after death.

Finally I have copied a post that I submitted.

What say the rest of you? I would like to read replies from Catholics, protestants, and Orthodox.

Thank you.

 

[Mickey]

Does purgatory really exist?
The rich man

• calls out to Abraham. He asks for help. This to me shows faith and hope that Abraham can interceed for the rich man and actually do something for his situation
• The rich man is told no. Just imagine how THAT bit of news felt! But he wasn’t discouraged. He persevers anyway, and asks Abraham to interceed to help his family so THEY don’t suffer the same. This shows me hope also, but most of all, charity on the part of the rich man. He can’t help himself nor will Abraham help him, and he knows it now. But he still tries to help others. That’s not just charity but IMO perfect charity. Doing something good for others with absolutely no expectation of a reward. In fact he knows there will be no reward for himself. Faith, Hope, AND Charity, are NOT virtues I think a soul in hell possesses.
  Therefore, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to think he is in purgatory being purified.

 

[Mickey]

I do not see that Jesus says the rich man is scratched from the book of life here Mickey. I do not even see Jesus mention the book of life. And I was always taught that if you do not accept Jesus Christ in your life that is mortal sin and it cannot be forgiven. I have never read that a venial sin can keep you from getting into heaven. I agree confession, the more the better, but I do not see where Jesus gave a case for the rich man to be in mortal sin with the example he gave. The rich man did not directly sin against God, he did not realize it. And he was sorry, and he was excepting what he got, he was being punished and did not say he did not deserve his punishment, which is repenting to me. He not only excepted his punishment, he was more worried about his brothers then himself. Don’t you think that he was sincere, and do you not think God also saw this, and could of had mercy on his after all. He could not have seen this as a way of keeping him away from God, and if he did not see it, he also saw that his brothers may not see it. Now if he would have said he was not sorry, and he did not regret what he did, and was not worried about his brothers, the I would agree he was doomed.

 

[Mickey]

I do not see that Jesus says the rich man is scratched from the book of life here Mickey. ** By this omission of the rich man’s name, He (the Lord) revealed a heavenly mystery. The name of such a rich man will be unknown in heaven. It will not be mentioned among the angels and saints; it will be blotted out of the Book of Life.**
St Nicholai Velimirovich (on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man)

Does purgatory really exist?
The rich man did not directly sin against God, he did not realize it. And he was sorry, and he was excepting what he got, he was being punished and did not say he did not deserve his punishment, which is repenting to me. You are wrong. I am very surprised that you have such a skewed understanding of this parable. I wonder if all Roman Catholics have this odd understanding as you do? Perhaps I will start a thread on this.

Does purgatory really exist?
Don’t you think that he was sincere It was too late! Don’t you get it?!?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I was raised Catholic and always understod to mean that the rich man was in Hell.

 

[VociMike]

I think at best it’s confusing. Why would anybody in hell be concerned with the welfare of their family, and desire that they repent?

 

[rinnie]

This is what I was taught. That the rich man was not in mortal sin. To die in mortal sin you cannot get to Purgatory. But if you die in venial sin, you can get to purgatory. That Purgatory is the final cleansing.

If you look at the parable before the death of Jesus, no one was in heaven. But we are also taught that if you are in hell it is total separation from God.

Now how did the rich man see Abraham. If you are in hell you will not see the righteous. I agree the rich man is in hell, a tempory hell. He is repenting his venial sin. Because we must repent all sin mortal and venial.

According to Mickey we cannot repent venial sin, therefore we either go to heaven or hell, for there is no final cleansing place.

I was taught the only way you go to hell is if you totally reject God all of your life. And lets face it, if you reject God in this world would you not reject him in the next. You either believe or you do not. And if you die in Mortal sin, you cannot get to heaven.

Now how many people can say if they can die at this moment they do not have some kind of venial sin that could and should have been confessed. If I go by Mickeys opinion, I feel we are all doomed.

The rich man felt remorse. Even to the degree he wanted to at least save his brothers. Now is that the actions of a evil person who wants nothing to do with God. An evil person could care less about his brothers. But he accepted his punishment, and repented. His actions to ask Abraham is what we call intercession. He is asking a righteous man to help him.

Something else to think about, did Lazarus forgive him? Never said did it. What if Lazarus did. Then how about if you ask for forgiveness and it is granted you are forgiven. But even if you are forgiven you must repent that sin. The rich man is repenting! He is sorry and is paying for his sin. It is not mortal because he did not reject God or sin against God personally. He just died with un-repented sin. He was sorry therefore forgiven. but must repent.

 

[ckempston]

Interesting. Most people in this thread have referred to it as a parable, but are taking literal meanings out of it. The question should be, I believe, what is it a parable OF?

The parables in Luke 15 and 16 are being told to a mixed group of people: Jesus’ disciples, people who were following him, and the Pharisees.

Who does the rich man represent in the parable? ISRAEL
Who does Lazarus represent (Lazarus = Eleazar)? GENTILES
What happens? Israel is separated from Abraham, and Gentiles are with him (wherever they happen to be).

What gives us these clues?

Who doesn’t listen to the Law and the Prophets? ISRAEL
Who sits “outside the gate”? (Gentiles - not allowed inside the Temple, etc.)

What ultimately happens? Gentiles are allowed in, Israel is kicked out, loses its place, etc…

This is pretty simple. Being a parable, we should be looking for what Jesus really meant, not trying to create or support literal doctrines from a parable.

 

[Mickey]

This is what I was taught. That the rich man was not in mortal sin. To die in mortal sin you cannot get to Purgatory. But if you die in venial sin, you can get to purgatory. That Purgatory is the final cleansing.

Who taught this to you?

I agree the rich man is in hell, a tempory hell. He is repenting his venial sin.

Once again. You cannot repent after you die. Period. Your catechism states this. Are there any other Latin Catholics who believe you can repent after death?

According to Mickey we cannot repent venial sin

There is no repenting after death. Your catechism states this.

Now how many people can say if they can die at this moment they do not have some kind of venial sin that could and should have been confessed.

I understand that Rome has “purgatory” to handle this dilemma. So you are still saying that this parable is a proof of purgatory?

If I go by Mickeys opinion, I feel we are all doomed.

If that is how you feel, then it is not because of anything that Mickey has said–it is because you are scrupulous. Scrupulosity is a dangerous thing–it can lead to despair.

The rich man felt remorse.

Of course he did. He is in hell!!!

Even to the degree he wanted to at least save his brothers. Now is that the actions of a evil person who wants nothing to do with God. An evil person could care less about his brothers.

By this [wanting to help his brothers] he revealed a particular sin of his: the scandalizing of others. He was in hell, not only because he was unmerciful to Lazarus but also because, by his light-minded life, he had given an evil example to his brothers, and thus brought them to ruin, opening the way to hell to them also. To be the cause of scandal to others is a terrible sin. To slip oneself and drag others down with one deserves a far fiercer condemnation than to slip oneself…He wanted Lazarus to come to him and forgive him, and then to put right his sin against his brothers. Then his flames would be soothed and his torments eased. This plea, then, he made to Abraham not so much for his brothers’ sake as his own.
St Nicholai Velimirovich

But he accepted his punishment, and repented.

We cannot repent after death.

His actions to ask Abraham is what we call intercession. He is asking a righteous man to help him.

And does Abraham help him?

The rich man is repenting!

We cannot repent after death.

 

[Mickey]

Being a parable, we should be looking for what Jesus really meant, not trying to create or support literal doctrines from a parable.

There are many levels to Jesus’ parables. They are an endless source of grace and knowledge to us.

 

[Mickey]

I think at best it’s confusing. Why would anybody in hell be concerned with the welfare of their family, and desire that they repent?

He was thinking of himself because he scandalized them and opened the path to hell.

 

[VociMike]

He was thinking of himself because he scandalized them and opened the path to hell.

This makes no sense. Was he acting out of love (wanting the best for the other) or acting out of self-interest? If the latter, what self-interest could be satisfied by having the rest of his family repent and avoid his fate?

 

[Mickey]

This makes no sense. Was he acting out of love (wanting the best for the other) or acting out of self-interest? If the latter, what self-interest could be satisfied by having the rest of his family repent and avoid his fate?

Read my quote by St Nicholai in post # 9.

 

[Nita]

Does the Roman Catholic Church have an official interpretation of this parable?
.

No, there is no “official interpretation” of this parable.

 

[estesbob]

No, there is no “official interpretation” of this parable.

Correct There is only a handful of verses of that the church has official interpretations of. Although these endless speculations on what various verses of Scripture mean may be a fun mind game they are totally irrelevant to one who wants to know Catholic doctrine.

 

[Mickey]

No, there is no “official interpretation” of this parable.

I see. You mean no official “magiterial” teaching on it. But I’m betting some early church fathers wrote about it.

 

[Mickey]

Correct There is only a handful of verses of that the church has official interpretations of. Although these endless speculations on what various verses of Scripture mean may be a fun mind game they are totally irrelevant to one who wants to know Catholic doctrine.

Are you saying that the Latin Catholic Church has no way to interpret the majority of Sacred Scripture aside from a handful of verses?

 

[rinnie]

Mickey you also claim that the rich man was a certain person, and the reason his was unknown was because his name was left out of the book of life.

Again this makes no sense to me. because never was a parable about one certain person.

Also there was more to this parable then meets the eye. How about the last line of it. This parable was told long before Jesus died and rose again.

Tell me what is the final cleansing then. Mickey never answered me what it is then, SO if purgatory does not exist what and where does this final cleansing take place.

And where does it say that if we have venial sin, we do not have to repent that sin, and if you agree with Mickey, If we die in venial sin are we going to hell? Because nothing unclean shall enter heaven. So what is the final cleansing process? Amd what is the purpose?

 

[ckempston]

There are many levels to Jesus’ parables. They are an endless source of grace and knowledge to us.

Parables, by definition, are not taken literally. While your answer sounds all warm, fuzzy, and spiritual, the application you’re giving it doesn’t really work.

 

[rinnie]

I think at best it’s confusing. Why would anybody in hell be concerned with the welfare of their family, and desire that they repent?

And also why would a person who rejects God be repenting anyway. A person who rejects God would never fell remorse for what he has done would he. Why would he if he was evil. If someone is evil they have no guilt.