Lazarus would have had to hear Jesus

[PaperMoon]

Hi

I think it is wrong to conclude that Catholic Church remains intact.
Where have these 32000 plus denominations split from and why? It is for wrong doings of the Church at Rome , in my opinion.

God’s will is in Uniting not splitting.

Thanks

It was Martin Luther and his followers that decided to break away and form their own church. Then those members broke away form him and formed their own group and so on and so on till everyone who came form those broke away churches thought they had the right to just break away form where they were and form a church according to their own ideas and interpretations of the Bible. That’s how those 32,000 denominations happened. Once Martin Luther broke away, they were no longer Catholic or a part of the Catholic church, so it wasn’t the Catholic church that split, it was a man going off on his own and starting his own church that caused so many denominations. The onlything that kept them all form being cults was because they kept the core Christian beliefs of Jesus being the Son of God who died for our sins etc. But the way Martin Luther broke away is how cults do except they kept the core beliefs. Martin Luther leaving on his own was totally wrong.

 

[PaperMoon]

I think you are ‘correct’ Paarsurrey, about the ‘splinters.’ In spite what they may say, they do ‘originate’ from the Catholic Church, but it is NOT from the wrong doings of The Church at Rome. They are from ‘our own opinions’ and free will. The Church is still the same as it ever was, so it cannot have been ‘wrong doings.’

It is difficult to understand ‘mysteries’ That’s why they are called ‘mysteries.’ But we can learn and study the evidence of Scritpures and look for corroboration among tradition.

The Catholic church did not split though, once Martin Luther left, he was no longer Catholic he became his own church. If you leave this forum and start your own forum I would not say this forum split, I would just say you left this forum and started your own forum. Same with Luther. He left the church so he was no longer Catholic he started his own church.

 

[po18guy]

Mannyfit75 to respond please.

Did the wind and waves have ears to hear Jesus’ command to be still? No, they obeyed God in Christ, just as Lazarus did. God is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all are alive.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. He is also True God and True Man. As God, he is the Creator. Therefore, when he told Lazarus to rise. He rised from the dead. When Jesus speaks the spirit listens. Many times during the exorcism, he told the spirit to depart from the person.

Likewise, when Jesus speaks the spirits also obey.

 

[paarsurrey]

You keep thinking that God acts in accordance with your own thought, within your own logic. In that case, Paar, you are reducing God into your human mind.

Hi

I never consider Jesus as God, to me, he was only a humble servant of GodAllahYHWH like Moses,Krishna,Buddha, Zoroaster etc so it is quite rational for me to believe that Jesus healed Lazarus, a near-dead person to consiousness by his prayers to GodAllahYHWH alongwith any medicines he might have use.

It is in my opinion a superstition to believe that Jesus cured Lazarus because he was God.

You are free to believe what you think is true according to your own line of thinking, that is ok for me.

May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

Thanks

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi

I never consider Jesus as God, to me, he was only a humble servant of GodAllahYHWH like Moses,Krishna,Buddha, Zoroaster etc so it is quite rational for me to believe that Jesus healed Lazarus, a near-dead person to consiousness by his prayers to GodAllahYHWH alongwith any medicines he might have use.

The Bible made it clear that Jesus is God. He is referred to as the Alpha and the Omega in the Book of Revelation. He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM. Jesus. In the first Chapter of John’s Gospel, that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God, and the Word was made flesh in dwell amongst men.

There are passages in the Scripture in the OT that God will be with his people, and He will dwell them them, and he shall be there God.

It is in my opinion a superstition to believe that Jesus cured Lazarus because he was God.

 

[wmscott]

Hi

Jesus did not announce that he was speaking as a God ( if he had announced that must have been mentioned in the scriptures). God does not need a tongue, teeth and vocal chord to speak, so he was a man at that time, in my opinion.

Thanks

IMO, Jesus could have simply willed Lazarus back to life, however to what effect? Jesus using his voice, speaking as God, demonstrated to “man” that Jesus is God and that Jesus transcends death. This will be proven in the resurrection. He had to speak the words out loud to provide a dramatic affect in demonstrating to the crowds the power of Jesus as God. This is a no brainier as far as I am concerned.

 

[inJESUS]

Paar, maybe you can explain to us how Jesus raised the dead according to the Quran?

 

[swariffin]

Paar, maybe you can explain to us how Jesus raised the dead according to the Quran?

Dear InJesus,

Why do you ask? Paar does not believe Jesus could raise people from the death. But, I understand you question. Paar must explain it according to the Quran, either make a new interpretation or denied the Quran to a certain extend. He strongly believe in his ProphetMessiah works.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

I never consider Jesus as God, to me, he was only a humble servant of GodAllahYHWH like Moses,Krishna,Buddha, Zoroaster etc so it is quite rational for me to believe that Jesus healed Lazarus, a near-dead person to consiousness by his prayers to GodAllahYHWH alongwith any medicines he might have use.

It is in my opinion a superstition to believe that Jesus cured Lazarus because he was God.

You are free to believe what you think is true according to your own line of thinking, that is ok for me.

May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

Thanks

Dear Paarsurrey,

Do you think that God is capable to make His Own Word into Human being? We believe God can do so, and God did, although we do not know exactly how the process was in full scientific or biologic details.

Anyway, brother, one thing you are correct. You always welcome us to believe what to believe, and I never read any uncharitable word from you. Please do not misunderstood me. I just would like to have with you a rational, reasonable and objective dialogue. I never intented to “force” you to change your belief either. Although you do not believe that Jesus is God, if you can see the good things that Jesus teach, it is good for you. Let’s put Jesus deity aside, If you actually do what Jesus teach in your life, it is wonderful.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I also am not sure exactly what the questioner’s point is, but I think he or she is saying Lazarus couldn’t have been raised from the dead because a dead man couldn’t hear Jesus in order to answer Him.

In response, does the questioner also believe that light, which had not yet existed prior to its creation and which does not have ears in any case, could not have been created by God because it couldn’t have heard God say “let there be light”?

Hi Im that poster lady gee just noticed I was quoted and Manny called out! interesting. But I notice that the conversation is circling I will respond to Parr now. and answer your questions at the same time.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

it is quite rational for me to believe that Jesus healed Lazarus, a **near-dead person **to consiousness by his prayers to GodAllahYHWH alongwith **any medicines **he might have use.

It is in my opinion a superstition to believe that Jesus cured Lazarus because he was God.

Paar Hello. at the start of this thread you posted my reply below’

Originally Posted by Kitty Chan
not after 4 days! and if he was wrapped that long without food and water not moving. When Jesus called for him to come out Lazarus would have had to hear Jesus, get up and walk out.

Why didnt he do that earlier? He did it when Jesus called him.

what you speak of didnt happen in this situation.

Now if you read what you just said and look at my reply again if you please. I would like to add, that there is no room for Lazarus to be near dead. It was 4 days. Jesus stood outside the tomb, He asked others to move the grave stone, Jesus called in a loud voice and Lazarus came out.

You see there are alot of details in this account. The reason the details are there, are to disprove anyone from saying that Lazarus was near dead. He was dead. Once again Jesus was outside, He did not enter, so the medicines could have not been administered.

I will post the account to help explain the situation as its seen.

thanks

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Jhn 11:38-44

Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

Jesus said,** Take ye away the stone**. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.

Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

Then** they **took away the stone [from the place] where the **dead **was laid. And Jesus lifted up [his] eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said [it], that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

the bolding is my emphasis.

there is more before the account if you wish I could post as well. It is easier to discuss when we know what exactly we are discussing.

thank you.

 

[inJESUS]

Dear InJesus,

Why do you ask? Paar does not believe Jesus could raise people from the death.

oh i did not know Ahmadiyya deny this as well…

 

[paarsurrey]

oh i did not know Ahmadiyya deny this as well…

Hi

However, I do believe that Jesus could raise the spiritual-dead to life which exactly every ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH is commanded to do, if he does not perform that duty then he is not a true ProphetMessenger of God in all probability.This was done by Moses, Krishna, Buddha and Zoroaster etc, they raised the spiritual-dead, the atheists to believers in ONE TRUE GOD, the Creator of heaven and earth and that who/which is in between them.

I also agree that Jesus with his prayers, that were accepted by GodAllahYHWH and with the uses of medicine if conveniently availabe, could cure the near-dead, and that is all.

Jesus could never create a thing from nothing or could raise the dead to life, as that is the specific attribute of GodAllahYHWH, not shared by any, Jesus or Muhammad.

This is what I believe from Quran/Islam/Muhammad others are free to believe whatever they think is truth for them, out of their free will and without compulsion.

The same right is for me unless I am convinced otherwise by my fellow human beings whatever their religon or denomination and they are welcome to do it if they love humanity.

Thanks

 

[po18guy]

However, I do believe that Jesus could raise the spiritual-dead to life…This was done by Moses, Krishna, Buddha and Zoroaster etc, they raised the spiritual-dead, the atheists to believers in ONE TRUE GOD, the Creator of heaven and earth and that who/which is in between them.

Paarsurrey, one major point of the entire Gospel message is that all of the other Prophets were men. Christ, Whom we know as the last Prophet, is something greater.

Matthew 12:6 “I tell you that one greater than the temple is here”.

Matthew 12:41 “The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here”.

Matthew 12:42 “The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here”.

Hebrews 9:11 The Blood of Christ ] When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.

If Christ did not/could not raise the dead, how could His disciple, a simple fisherman (Cepha), do that?

Acts 9:36-41 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor. About that time she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room. Lydda was near Joppa; so when the disciples heard that Peter was in Lydda, they sent two men to him and urged him, “Please come at once!” Peter went with them, and when he arrived he was taken upstairs to the room. All the widows stood around him, crying and showing him the robes and other clothing that Dorcas had made while she was still with them. Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up. He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called the believers and the widows and presented her to them alive.

If you deny any part of Christ, you deny all of Him - His teaching, His love, His miracles. And you know in your heart, and have said so, that His teaching is true and should be spread to the ends of the earth.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurrey, one major point of the entire Gospel message is that all of the other Prophets were men. Christ, Whom we know as the last Prophet, is something greater.

Hi

As I believe that Jesus and other ProphetsMessengers raised spiritual-dead persons to life, which is a greater miracle so did Muhammad.

Quran

[8:21] O ye who believe! obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him while you hear his commands.
[8:22] And be not like those who say, ‘We hear,’ but they hear not.
[8:23] Surely, the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb, who have no sense.
[8:24] And if Allah had known any good in them, He would certainly have made them hear. And if He now makes them hear, they will turn away in aversion. **
[8:25] O ye who believe! respond to Allah, and the Messenger when he calls you that he may give you life,** and know that Allah comes in between a man and his heart, and that He it is unto Whom you will be gathered.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=8&verse=20

Thanks

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hi

As I believe that Jesus and other ProphetsMessengers raised spiritual-dead persons to life, which is a greater miracle so did Muhammad.

Well, that is obvously a good thing. Jesus also brought them back to life after their physical death.

Also, why He came back from the dead after the cross. This is why Jesus is said to hold the keys to life and death.

I dont expect you to agree, that is your decision. Only thing I can ask is you understand the position.

Thank you