LCMS and JDDJ (Joint Declaration the Doctrine of Justification)

[MaryT777]

There have been numerous converts to the CC…who did not find this complicated.

I would say it is complicated only to those who argue about it…and who consider the papacy the anti-Christ…

But why is it…prior to Luther…no one in the west doubted about the keys?

Or why is it…a Catherine of Sienna…can recognize the value of the holder of the keys…and effected her reforms through the keys without causing a splitting of the Church or the altar?

I agree with this; we can make it more complicated than it is. The converts I know
even ones well steeped in Protestantism found the truth of the Catholic teaching of faith and works evidenced in the Bible.

It seems crystal clear quite frankly.

 

[Peter_J]

My wife is always right!

So I guess the “not complicated” idea is pretty easy for you to grasp?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ

nope its “Lutheran Church Missouri Synod”

 

[MaryT777]

nope its “Lutheran Church Missouri Synod”

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is LCMS.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

JonNC;11050877]Two things, Mary.

1. Does the pope have universal jurisdiction over all the bishops? Our view is this is a heterodox teaching, against scripture and the early Church.

I think the answer to that question lies in the understanding of universal jurisdiction. I do not pretened to be an authority be any means at all. That said my understanding is that the bishops have authority in their diocese. The Only time that the Pope would be able to over ride an Bishop is if that bishop was started teaching against Church teachings. How those teaching are administored is upto the bishop. the Pope is held to Church Law as well and can not over step the Authority that the Church ( All bishops in union) give to Him. The Orthodox are right in him being first amoung equals but they fail in reconizing what that means.

1. is salvation contingent on being in communion with the Bishop of Rome? Our view is this too is contrary to the teaching of scripture and the early Church.

To answer this from the Catholic point of view (East and West) the answer is yes. Salvation in found only within the Church. To be in the Church you have to be incommunion with those in the Church. Being as the earthly head of the Church is the the Bishop of the See of Rome, If you are not in communion with him you are not in communion with the Church, Thus you are outside the church and outside the church there is no SAlvation. ow obviously this is an over simplification. On of the things that Pope Benedict said that I loved was and here I will parapharse, All those that have been baptized are within the Church, Those of are Christain brother in the protestant tradtions are with in the Church, but at this time there union and standing with the Church are imperfect.

My own thought are that as a mamber of the Catholic fatih I can not expect a person that has been brought up in a protestant tradition to just accept the Catholic teaching all al matters. In Fact I would be surprised if they did not fight against those teaching that the founders of their taditions most vemoniouly wrote about.
For Luthereans to come into full communion with Rome there are parts of their confession that would have to be removed. In doing that they would make the confessions unnessesary as they would then say for the most part already what the Church teaches on those matters. Will this happen? I do not see it. Total reunion with the East will happen first and will be easier. And we see how far down the road that still is.

Now, I personally don’t like the term antiChrist, and have said so since my early days here.

I do not like it either when used as it has been used here. I do not think that either Catholic or Lutheran are in oppossition to Christ.

It has connotations in modern America not intended by the reformers. It is offensive to the modern ear. But, I am not willing to back away from the belief I stated just above. I believe, as it is presented by Rome, these two teachings are heterodox.

Jon

And that Jon is the big obsticule, for as Catholic we see teaching in oppossion to those two things as being at best heterodoxy and at worst heresy.

For me I can not see not being in union with the See of Peter. That right there is what lead me to the Catholic Faith.

 

[MaryT777]

I think the answer to that question lies in the understanding of universal jurisdiction. I do not pretened to be an authority be any means at all. That said my understanding is that the bishops have authority in their diocese. The Only time that the Pope would be able to over ride an Bishop is if that bishop was started teaching against Church teachings. How those teaching are administored is upto the bishop. the Pope is held to Church Law as well and can not over step the Authority that the Church ( All bishops in union) give to Him. The Orthodox are right in him being first amoung equals but they fail in reconizing what that means.

To answer this from the Catholic point of view (East and West) the answer is yes. Salvation in found only within the Church. To be in the Church you have to be incommunion with those in the Church. Being as the earthly head of the Church is the the Bishop of the See of Rome, If you are not in communion with him you are not in communion with the Church, Thus you are outside the church and outside the church there is no SAlvation. ow obviously this is an over simplification. On of the things that Pope Benedict said that I loved was and here I will parapharse, All those that have been baptized are within the Church, Those of are Christain brother in the protestant tradtions are with in the Church, but at this time there union and standing with the Church are imperfect.

My own thought are that as a mamber of the Catholic fatih I can not expect a person that has been brought up in a protestant tradition to just accept the Catholic teaching all al matters. In Fact I would be surprised if they did not fight against those teaching that the founders of their taditions most vemoniouly wrote about.
For Luthereans to come into full communion with Rome there are parts of their confession that would have to be removed. In doing that they would make the confessions unnessesary as they would then say for the most part already what the Church teaches on those matters. Will this happen? I do not see it. Total reunion with the East will happen first and will be easier. And we see how far down the road that still is.
I do not like it either when used as it has been used here. I do not think that either Catholic or Lutheran are in oppossition to Christ.

And that Jon is the big obsticule, for as Catholic we see teaching in oppossion to those two things as being at best heterodoxy and at worst heresy.

For me I can not see not being in union with the See of Peter. That right there is what lead me to the Catholic Faith.

Well said.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is LCMS.

I see that. I misread the acronmy that the poster was using. MY bad.

 

[benjohnson]

In doing that they would make the confessions unnessesary as they would then say for the most part already what the Church teaches on those matters.

I say this not to rile, but it’s fair to also say that the Catholic church is also has becoming more aligned with the Lutheran ideals and Lutheran Confessions over the last 500 years - communion in both species, liturgy in the vernacular, no paid indulgences, catechisms for the laity, strong hymnals: Of course, those changes may not have depended on Lutheran examples.

 

[MaryT777]

I see that. I misread the acronmy that the poster was using. MY bad.

No problem.
I enjoy your posts and am glad you are posting on this thread.
(Of course I started this thread so I might be biased on how much I like it LOL )

Peace in Christ,
Mary.

 

[MaryT777]

I say this not to rile, but it’s fair to also say that the Catholic church is also has becoming more aligned with the Lutheran ideals and Lutheran Confessions over the last 500 years - communion in both species, liturgy in the vernacular, no paid indulgences, catechisms for the laity, strong hymnals: Of course, those changes may not have depended on Lutheran examples.

WHAT??? I am so riled up now., Ben.
Take that back LOL
Well let’s face it, not everyone could read back in the day so catechisms for the laity wouldn’t have done a lot of good.
Well, no printing press to print inexpensive Bible and Catechisms people could afford etc.

This helps.
Peace in Christ,
Mary.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I say this not to rile, but it’s fair to also say that the Catholic church is also has becoming more aligned with the Lutheran ideals and Lutheran Confessions over the last 500 years - communion in both species, liturgy in the vernacular, no paid indulgences, catechisms for the laity, strong hymnals: Of course, those changes may not have depended on Lutheran examples.

Not riled here. To address your points, communion under both species has always been the norm,look to the EAST, However in the Western Church the practice of only under the Host became the rule for two reason 1) To combate the heresy that you did not recieve Chirst full in just the host. 2) a little thing called the plauge. Neither of which are issues today. As to the Liturgy in the vernacular, in the eastern catholic church is has always been in the local vernacular, in the West for a long time latin was the vernacular and therefore became the language of the Liturgy in the west. It is still to be used in the liturgy and held as perferrable to the vernacular. On indulgences is was never the practice of the Church to have the faithful pay for an indulgence. That awful happening was in a few areas only and for a short period of time and to continue to rehash it over and over and to put foreward as being held by the whole church is disingenous. Also though Rome may have (more than like did) know that it was happening, it was stopped as soon as it became widly known. As to hymals I think with or without the reformation Hymnals for the layity would have come about, of course keep in mind that it is only within the last 200 years or so that literacy has increased to the point that there is raseon to have them.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

No problem.
I enjoy your posts and am glad you are posting on this thread.
(Of course I started this thread so I might be biased on how much I like it LOL )

Peace in Christ,
Mary.

Thank you. I am enjoing the thread.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

WHAT??? I am so riled up now., Ben.
Take that back LOL
Well let’s face it, not everyone could read back in the day so catechisms for the laity wouldn’t have done a lot of good.
Well, no printing press to print inexpensive Bible and Catechisms people could afford etc.

This helps.
Peace in Christ,
Mary.

Also good points that I forgot to make.

 

[hn160]

I say this not to rile, but it’s fair to also say that the Catholic church is also has becoming more aligned with the Lutheran ideals and Lutheran Confessions over the last 500 years - communion in both species, liturgy in the vernacular, no paid indulgences, catechisms for the laity, strong hymnals: Of course, those changes may not have depended on Lutheran examples.

Speaking about catechisms, I wonder how many Lutherans ever studied Luther’s Large Catechism? I only ever learned his Small Catechism but never studied his Large Catechism. We are finally doing that at my church and also the Visition Articles

 

[benjohnson]

Speaking about catechisms, I wonder how many Lutherans ever studied Luther’s Large Catechism? I only ever learned his Small Catechism but never studied his Large Catechism. We are finally doing that at my church and also the Visition Articles

I get the feeling that if the Large Catechism was studied more,many Lutheran synods wouldn’t be in the disarray they are now

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ben, Jon, Don, hn160(Sorry I do not know your name lol)

How can the LCMS and the Catholic Church ever have dialogue if your pastors canno even do a prayer service with other Christians?

 

[JonNC]

Ben, Jon, Don, hn160(Sorry I do not know your name lol)

How can the LCMS and the Catholic Church ever have dialogue if your pastors canno even do a prayer service with other Christians?

Because, to start with, dialogue on doctrine is not dependent on worship services. When pastors and priests get together, of course they may pray together. The biggest concern in the matter of prayer services is the appearance of unionism, and perhaps worse, syncretism.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

Because, to start with, dialogue on doctrine is not dependent on worship services. When pastors and priests get together, of course they may pray together. The biggest concern in the matter of prayer services is the appearance of unionism, and perhaps worse, syncretism.

Jon

That does not help the dialogue. Kind of comes across as do not sit with them or people will think you are friends with them.

 

[JonNC]

That does not help the dialogue. Kind of comes across as do not sit with them or people will think you are friends with them.

I always surprised when Catholics take this stand, as they too have particular conditions for worship, etc. are you ready to have a joint mass with Lutherans pastors participating as celebrants? Probably not. Now I will say the synod did not handle either the recent Newtown, or the 911 Yankee Stadium situations well. Hopefully, they’ve learned the lesson, that sometimes there needs to be flexibility.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

I always surprised when Catholics take this stand, as they too have particular conditions for worship, etc. are you ready to have a joint mass with Lutherans pastors participating as celebrants? Probably not. Now I will say the synod did not handle either the recent Newtown, or the 911 Yankee Stadium situations well. Hopefully, they’ve learned the lesson, that sometimes there needs to be flexibility.

Jon

A Mass is different than a community prayer service.