LCMS Lutheran parish a little too "high church"?

[shark76z]

I ran across this LCMS Lutheran Church located in Georgia that celebrates the Eucharist daily, claims to hold 7 sacraments instead of the Lutheran 2, claims that a person can lose their salvation, and addresses their pastor as “father”. I don’t think this common among Lutherans, but does anyone know?

Site: forministry.com/USGALUCMSRLCRL

 

[TheExorcist]

“We believe that God created the universe in six literal, 24-hour periods; we fully reject all scientific theories on this issue, including: evolution, the Gap Theory, the Day-Age Theory, and the Big Bang theory. These are regarded as non-biblical theories of origin (Bible references: Genesis, chapters*1 and 2; Exodus 20:11).”

Is that also typical of LCMS. Sounds pretty fundamentalist to me.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

“We believe that God created the universe in six literal, 24-hour periods; we fully reject all scientific theories on this issue, including: evolution, the Gap Theory, the Day-Age Theory, and the Big Bang theory. These are regarded as non-biblical theories of origin (Bible references: Genesis, chapters*1 and 2; Exodus 20:11).”

Is that also typical of LCMS. Sounds pretty fundamentalist to me.

So Creationists are “Fundamentalists”?

 

[JoshuaNY]

I ran across this LCMS Lutheran Church located in Georgia that celebrates the Eucharist daily, claims to hold 7 sacraments instead of the Lutheran 2, claims that a person can lose their salvation, and addresses their pastor as “father”. I don’t think this common among Lutherans, but does anyone know?

Site: forministry.com/USGALUCMSRLCRL

That is a little odd, celebrating 7 sacraments is not a Lutheran teaching. We have two sacraments The Eucharist and Baptism. Absolution is close though. The other 4 we do have but are considered rites and not sacraments.

However, Lutherans do beleive a person can lose their salvation. See below for the LCMS teaching.

Missouri Synod believes and teaches that it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us (1 Cor. 10:12; 1 Pet. 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:17; Heb. 2:1-3; 3:12-19; 6:4-8, etc.). Such warnings are intended for Christians who appear to be lacking a right understanding of the seriousness of their sin and of God’s judgment against sin, and who, therefore, are in danger of developing a false and proud “security” based not on God’s grace, but on their own works, self-righteousness, or freedom to “do as they please.”

By the same token, the LCMS affirms and treasures all of the wonderful passages in Scripture in which God promises that He will never forsake those who trust in Christ Jesus alone for salvation (John 10:27-29; Romans 8; Heb. 13: 5-6, etc.). To those who are truly repentant and recognize their need for God’s grace and forgiveness, such passages are powerful reminders of the true security that is ours through sincere and humble faith in Christ alone for our salvation.

A person may be restored to faith in the same way he or she came to faith in the first place: by repenting of his or her sin and unbelief and trusting completely in the life, death and resurrection of Christ alone for forgiveness and salvation.

Whenever a person does repent and believe, this always takes place by the grace of God alone and by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God’s Word in a person’s heart.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I ran across this LCMS Lutheran Church located in Georgia that celebrates the Eucharist daily,

I am no expert in Lutheran Eucharistic practices but I don’t think Martin Luther ever opposed daily Eucharistic celebrations. I would find such opposition very strange. So while it might be unusual for a Lutheran church, at least in the United States, to celebrate the Eucharist everyday, I don’t think there would be any doctrinal issues with it.

claims to hold 7 sacraments instead of the Lutheran 2

They might be using a less narrow definition of the word “sacrament” that is still in line with Lutheranism: lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2636

claims that a person can lose their salvation,

This view is sanctioned by their denomination: lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2648

and addresses their pastor as “father”

I have known other Lutherans to do this. I’ve also heard some Lutherans refer to Martin Luther as “Father Luther.”

 

[Juliebug108]

I ran across this LCMS Lutheran Church located in Georgia that celebrates the Eucharist daily, claims to hold 7 sacraments instead of the Lutheran 2, claims that a person can lose their salvation, and addresses their pastor as “father”. I don’t think this common among Lutherans, but does anyone know?

Site: forministry.com/USGALUCMSRLCRL

Daily Eucharist is odd, and addressing the pastor as " father" is very odd…7 sacraments isn’t too out there. While Lutherans really only accept 2 (baptism and Communion) we still refer to the other 5 as “sacramental rites” or “Holy rites.” The LCMS does teach that it is possible to fall from salvation, as does the ELCA as well…I’m not sure about WELS, but I would imagine that they believe one can lose their salvation as well. If you lose your faith, you lose your salvation…until you come back to having faith. That’s the short and sweet version.

 

[Juliebug108]

Also, I wonder if they are perhaps catering to a largely former-Catholic congregation? There is a Church of the Nazarene in my area where nearly 70% of their congregation is formerly Catholic, and they have become VERY liturgical to cater to them.

Just a thought.

 

[Alix1912]

Confession is actually a sacrament according to the Augsburg Confession and the Small Catichism. Offically the LCMS doesn’t actually have a stated right or wrong theory of evolution vrs. creationism other that God did it. I’ve met Pastors who are across the Gambit on this.

 

[JonNC]

Daily Eucharist is odd, and addressing the pastor as " father" is very odd…7 sacraments isn’t too out there. While Lutherans really only accept 2 (baptism and Communion) we still refer to the other 5 as “sacramental rites” or “Holy rites.” The LCMS does teach that it is possible to fall from salvation, as does the ELCA as well…I’m not sure about WELS, but I would imagine that they believe one can lose their salvation as well. If you lose your faith, you lose your salvation…until you come back to having faith. That’s the short and sweet version.

Just as a followup, I don’t believe Lutherans, traditionally, are particularly hard core in the expression of there only being 2 (or 3) sacraments. Of the issues between Lutherans and Catholics, ISTM this is one that would not be hard to resolve, were reconciliation close.

As for falling from Grace, if the WELS is truly Lutheran, they would have to accept this, as the Epitome of the Formula of Concord says:

1. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Jon

 

[MotherofMany]

as a former lutheran, i have to say that we never revered to the clergy as priests either…and we were taught that jesus was present during communion, but the bread/wine didnt actually become jesus. has the missouri synod undergone some changes recently??

 

[JonNC]

as a former lutheran, i have to say that we never revered to the clergy as priests either…and we were taught that jesus was present during communion, but the bread/wine didnt actually become jesus. has the missouri synod undergone some changes recently??

Well, on the first part, the term “priest” isn’t used, but the concept is there, in that we have always believed in the ordained priesthood. That’s in the confessions.

On the real presence part, this was a poor presentation you received regarding the real presence. Lutherans believe that the bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Christ.
Again, the confessions:

we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh.

What Lutherans don’t do (or shouldn’t do) is get into the metaphysics of it (Transubstantiation and consubstantiation). We trust in the spoken words of Christ. That’s not to say that others, including Catholics, don’t.

Jon

 

[Juliebug108]

Just as a followup, I don’t believe Lutherans, traditionally, are particularly hard core in the expression of there only being 2 (or 3) sacraments. Of the issues between Lutherans and Catholics, ISTM this is one that would not be hard to resolve, were reconciliation close.

As for falling from Grace, if the WELS is truly Lutheran, they would have to accept this, as the Epitome of the Formula of Concord says:

Jon

Hi Jon,

I agree about the sacraments. I think that this area is largely a difference of semantics between the Catholic and Lutheran understanding of what “sacrament” really means.

Also, I agree about WELS…I’m just really unfamiliar with that synod, so I don’t want to speak for them on these types of issues. But yes, I would imagine that, like you said, if they are truly Lutheran then they would have to hold that position.

 

[TheExorcist]

So Creationists are “Fundamentalists”?

No I meant the part about “six literal, 24-hour periods” and “we fully reject all scientific theories on this issue”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In all my readings of Luther himself (which I know doesn’t constitute the entirety of Lutheranism itself) he was always adament that there are two sacraments. For Luther there had to be an outward sign, inner grace given, and it had to be instituted by Christ Himself. I’ve always been of the understanding that there are two sacraments. But then at my son’s school (which is Lutheran) I overheard the principal talking to a guest at the church on the night of the Christmas pageant saying “there are five sacraments” and I did a double-take!

Just as a followup, I don’t believe Lutherans, traditionally, are particularly hard core in the expression of there only being 2 (or 3) sacraments. Of the issues between Lutherans and Catholics, ISTM this is one that would not be hard to resolve, were reconciliation close.

As for falling from Grace, if the WELS is truly Lutheran, they would have to accept this, as the Epitome of the Formula of Concord says:

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I was always of the understanding that Lutherans of all synods believed that the Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine? What I found disappointing is how they believed the Real Presence left the elements after communion and didn’t reserve the Sacrament?

as a former lutheran, i have to say that we never revered to the clergy as priests either…and we were taught that jesus was present during communion, but the bread/wine didnt actually become jesus. has the missouri synod undergone some changes recently??

 

[MotherofMany]

Well, on the first part, the term “priest” isn’t used, but the concept is there, in that we have always believed in the ordained priesthood. That’s in the confessions.

On the real presence part, this was a poor presentation you received regarding the real presence. Lutherans believe that the bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Christ.
Again, the confessions:

What Lutherans don’t do (or shouldn’t do) is get into the metaphysics of it (Transubstantiation and consubstantiation). We trust in the spoken words of Christ. That’s not to say that others, including Catholics, don’t.

Jon

lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=559

i was a lutheran for a very long time, and their teaching on the lords supper was vastly different than the catholic church.

 

[Juliebug108]

lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=559

i was a lutheran for a very long time, and their teaching on the lords supper was vastly different than the catholic church.

Vastly? How so exactly? I think that might be a bit of an overstatement.

 

[JoshuaNY]

lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=559i was a lutheran for a very long time, and their teaching on the lords supper was vastly different than the catholic church.

i dont think it is such a huge difference. I think we beleive the same thing just define it differently. Lutherans just do not define the metaphysics of it.
I pray for the day when we can all share in the Lords Supper together at your Church or Mine

I was always of the understanding that Lutherans of all synods believed that the Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine? What I found disappointing is how they believed the Real Presence left the elements after communion and didn’t reserve the Sacrament?

My understanding is as follows. I think this goes along with the fact that Lutherans do not define/explain the metaphysics of the Eucharist. It is not specifically written in scripture how long Jesus is Present in the bread and the wine therefore us Lutherans Err on the side of caution. This is not to say that the Lords Supper after service should be treated with irreverence. It should be consumed.

Jon, please correct me if I am wrong

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I would think that erring on the side of caution would mean one would reserve the Eucharist just in case it STILL was the fully-present Lord? Assuming it doesn’t is the opposite of erring on the side of caution I would think? Beats me…

i dont think it is such a huge difference. I think we beleive the same thing just define it differently. Lutherans just do not define the metaphysics of it.
I pray for the day when we can all share in the Lords Supper together at your Church or Mine

My understanding is as follows. I think this goes along with the fact that Lutherans do not define/explain the metaphysics of the Eucharist. It is not specifically written in scripture how long Jesus is Present in the bread and the wine therefore us Lutherans Err on the side of caution. This is not to say that the Lords Supper after service should be treated with irreverence. It should be consumed.

Jon, please correct me if I am wrong

 

[Alix1912]

I was always of the understanding that Lutherans of all synods believed that the Eucharist becomes the Body and Blood of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine? What I found disappointing is how they believed the Real Presence left the elements after communion and didn’t reserve the Sacrament?

My mom and I both happen to either be on the altar guild or served as accolytes at three different LCMS churchs over our lives. I can tell you what we do after communion if there is any consecrated elements that have not been consumed. If there is any wine/blood of Christ left it is placed in a special dechanter to be used first at the next service. If there is any host left it is again placed in a specially designated box (it’s wood and pretty) and again it is used first at the next service. It is not to be mixed back in with unconsecrated elements, and is to be treated with the utmost respect as it has been on the altar. Also if for some reason there are consecrated elements that cannot be comsumed they are returned to the earth. Meaning the wine/blood is taken out and poured onto a specific tree and the host is disolved in water and again poured on the specific tree. This is also used when the communion ware is rinsed prior to washing, the rinse water is taken out and returned to the earth. Some churchs actually have a special drain that they can use for this. Anyway, the elements of communion are treated with respect as they were consecrated and are the body and blood of Christ.

I do believe in certain cases that Christ could easily remove his presence from the elements of communion. He is God after all and can do anything he wants to. I doubt he leaves his presence when the host is being desecrated, or misused (this of course doesn’t mean that the person doing that is in the clear, they are still in big trouble).

I think trying to debate the metaphysics of communion is impossible, as it is by definition a miracle and therefore cannot ever be completely explained by mortal man.