LCMS Lutheran parish a little too "high church"?

[JoshuaNY]

I would think that erring on the side of caution would mean one would reserve the Eucharist just in case it STILL was the fully-present Lord? Assuming it doesn’t is the opposite of erring on the side of caution I would think? Beats me…

I dont think their is anything wrong with consuming the communion after the service. I will add that the Eucharist is also available for people who can not leave their homes. Because Lutherans do not know if or when the Real Presence leaves people are sent during the Divine Service to bring them Communion. This is also to say that we do not know if and when the Presence leaves we would not want to administer it and The Lord not be present. Caution goes both ways I think. To make sure The Presence is still there it is a continuation of the Communion Service they are sent right after everyone in Church receives.
Now I am just describing my understanding of it all. I could be mistaken.

I do not know so can I ask what is done with the Precious Blood at the conclusion of your Mass?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well I’ve been both Anglican and Catholic, somewhat intrepid going back and forth between the two…in both the priest drinks all the rest of the Precious Blood and then the chalice is carefully cleaned…the Host is reserved in a Tabernacle in the CC and in an “aumbry” in the Anglican Church, which is like a metal box that slides out of the wall. It is used for shut-ins and in-home visits for the sick, etc. not for adoration as in CC.

I dont think their is anything wrong with consuming the communion after the service. I will add that the Eucharist is also available for people who can not leave their homes. Because Lutherans do not know if or when the Real Presence leaves people are sent during the Divine Service to bring them Communion. This is also to say that we do not know if and when the Presence leaves we would not want to administer it and The Lord not be present. Caution goes both ways I think. To make sure The Presence is still there it is a continuation of the Communion Service they are sent right after everyone in Church receives.
Now I am just describing my understanding of it all. I could be mistaken.

I do not know so can I ask what is done with the Precious Blood at the conclusion of your Mass?

 

[JoshuaNY]

Well I’ve been both Anglican and Catholic, somewhat intrepid going back and forth between the two…in both the priest drinks all the rest of the Precious Blood and then the chalice is carefully cleaned…the Host is reserved in a Tabernacle in the CC and in an “aumbry” in the Anglican Church, which is like a metal box that slides out of the wall. It is used for shut-ins and in-home visits for the sick, etc. not for adoration as in CC.

Got ya. This is the same thing done in the Lutheran Church. So couldnt we treat the remaining Body of Christ the same way? And with the same reverence? Just thinking.

 

[Alix1912]

Got ya. This is the same thing done in the Lutheran Church. So couldnt we treat the remaining Body of Christ the same way? And with the same reverence? Just thinking.

We DO…At least in ALL the LCMS churches I’ve ever attended the leftover elements of communion ARE treated with reverence. They are stored in special containers in the sacristy, and handled with extreme care. What are they doing with them at your church?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve never seen any such tabernacle or aumbry at the Lutheran LCMS parish where my son goes to school. Communion seems fast and low-key. I’ve heard Lutherans say that they believe after communion the Presence is gone and it’s not as ritualistic and fancy about storing the Host, etc. as a result. But that’s what I’ve heard. That’s why I ask my Lutheran friends here…to get the straight skinny, the real scoop. I have always liked Lutherans…and my son LOVES his school (he’s a kindergartener and my daughter and youngest son are both in the preschool there) despite having some folks in CAF call me “training my son to be a little moral relativist” The Catholic school in our area was not up to snuff IMO as a teacher.

Got ya. This is the same thing done in the Lutheran Church. So couldnt we treat the remaining Body of Christ the same way? And with the same reverence? Just thinking.

 

[Alix1912]

I’ve never seen any such tabernacle or aumbry at the Lutheran LCMS parish where my son goes to school. Communion seems fast and low-key. I’ve heard Lutherans say that they believe after communion the Presence is gone and it’s not as ritualistic and fancy about storing the Host, etc. as a result. But that’s what I’ve heard. That’s why I ask my Lutheran friends here…to get the straight skinny, the real scoop. I have always liked Lutherans…and my son LOVES his school (he’s a kindergartener and my daughter and youngest son are both in the preschool there) despite having some folks in CAF call me “training my son to be a little moral relativist” The Catholic school in our area was not up to snuff IMO as a teacher.

Most of the time any blessed elements of communion are kept in the sacrasty area not in the actual sanctuary at a Lutheran Church.

 

[GKC]

Well I’ve been both Anglican and Catholic, somewhat intrepid going back and forth between the two…in both the priest drinks all the rest of the Precious Blood and then the chalice is carefully cleaned…the Host is reserved in a Tabernacle in the CC and in an “aumbry” in the Anglican Church, which is like a metal box that slides out of the wall. It is used for shut-ins and in-home visits for the sick, etc. not for adoration as in CC.

Depends on the Anglicans you’re thinking of. Aumbries are rarer than tabernacles, in my experience, and more likely to be used to store vessels or oil. Adoration certainly is held in some Anglican parishes; I’ve been a server at such a service.

Anglicans differ in these matters, as in many others. There should be a phrase to describe this.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

Regarding the differences and similarities in Eucharistic beliefs, this document is quite helpful.

prounione.urbe.it/dia-int/l-rc/doc/e_l-rc_eucharist.html

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In my area, which is honestly platypus Anglicanism where you have a 50/50 Catholic to Protestant sensibility, there are mostly aumbries. We don’t have anglo-catholicism so much here…definitely not adoration or any such thing…

We’re not a motley crew!

And by the way, your cliche is “depends on which Anglicans you ask…” You’re slipping, Jim!

Depends on the Anglicans you’re thinking of. Aumbries are rarer than tabernacles, in my experience, and more likely to be used to store vessels or oil. Adoration certainly is held in some Anglican parishes; I’ve been a server at such a service.

Anglicans differ in these matters, as in many others. There should be a phrase to describe this.

GKC

 

[JoshuaNY]

We DO…At least in ALL the LCMS churches I’ve ever attended the leftover elements of communion ARE treated with reverence. They are stored in special containers in the sacristy, and handled with extreme care. What are they doing with them at your church?

That is what we do. I was trying to point out the similarities between the RC Eucharist and the Lutheran Eucharist and that it is OK to consume them and not reserve them.

 

[GKC]

In my area, which is honestly platypus Anglicanism where you have a 50/50 Catholic to Protestant sensibility, there are mostly aumbries. We don’t have anglo-catholicism so much here…definitely not adoration or any such thing…

We’re not a motley crew!

And by the way, your cliche is “depends on which Anglicans you ask…” You’re slipping, Jim!

Out of practice.

GKC

 

[JoshuaNY]

I’ve never seen any such tabernacle or aumbry at the Lutheran LCMS parish where my son goes to school. Communion seems fast and low-key. I’ve heard Lutherans say that they believe after communion the Presence is gone and it’s not as ritualistic and fancy about storing the Host, etc. as a result. But that’s what I’ve heard. That’s why I ask my Lutheran friends here…to get the straight skinny, the real scoop. I have always liked Lutherans…and my son LOVES his school (he’s a kindergartener and my daughter and youngest son are both in the preschool there) despite having some folks in CAF call me “training my son to be a little moral relativist” The Catholic school in our area was not up to snuff IMO as a teacher.

I agree with you. I have been to many Lutheran Churches where it is very quick and the time is not taken to fully be with Christ in the Sacrament. Now this is just my opinion, but I think if I asked 100 Lutherans if Christ is fully present I think half of them would say it is just a symbol. Now that is a problem with when they are taught about it. But I feel that more time is being speant now to teach them correctly.

 

[Alix1912]

I agree with you. I have been to many Lutheran Churches where it is very quick and the time is not taken to fully be with Christ in the Sacrament. Now this is just my opinion, but I think if I asked 100 Lutherans if Christ is fully present I think half of them would say it is just a symbol. Now that is a problem with when they are taught about it. But I feel that more time is being speant now to teach them correctly.

You also need to know which synod of Lutheran they are. Most LCMS churchs teach the real presence, however with ELCA it’s a mixed bag.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

It is rare, but not unheard of, to have high church Lutheran parishes. After all, Lutherans for the longest time carried on (and drew from) the rich depths of the Western liturgical practice. From my experience as a life-long Lutheran, the ELCA tends to have more high church elements, the LCMS being more middle church, and the WELS low church. This if, of course, not counting the much smaller Lutheran bodies; furthermore, this is a mere generalization, as in most cases each parish practices as it sees fit. This is supposed to be for pastoral reasons, but in recent years it has become more of a “each unto their own” situation. Alas, I digress.

Unfortunately as with many traditionally liturgical churches, proper use of the Liturgy has declined and in some cases completely abandoned. I pray for the restoration of reverent and joyfully celebrated Liturgies.

Although in my opinion, you can never be too high church!

But wait, there is more! You think that parish is high church? You’ve obviously never heard of Zion Detroit!
ziondetroit.org/index.php?page=home

I would suggest reading their service for the Mass. It is joked that the Catholic parish down the street likes to “borrow” their Missal

 

[JonNC]

You also need to know which synod of Lutheran they are. Most LCMS churchs teach the real presence, however with ELCA it’s a mixed bag.

I’m not sure you would get that in the ELCA, either. I don’t see much of an issue with any Lutheran synod teaching a symbolic presence, more I see a problem with some Lutherans of all synods flopping around with “consubstantiation”. To me, it is lazy catechesis. When someone asks what is the Eucharist, say, Christ said “this is my body”, “this is the new covenant in my blood”. And when they ask, what happens to the bread and wine, say, “Christ said, ‘this is my body’, ‘this is the new conenant in my blood’”. And if they press further about the substances of bread and wine, say, “God does with it as He wills”,

Jon

 

[JonNC]

It is rare, but not unheard of, to have high church Lutheran parishes. After all, Lutherans for the longest time carried on (and drew from) the rich depths of the Western liturgical practice. From my experience as a life-long Lutheran, the ELCA tends to have more high church elements, the LCMS being more middle church, and the WELS low church. This if, of course, not counting the much smaller Lutheran bodies; furthermore, this is a mere generalization, as in most cases each parish practices as it sees fit. This is supposed to be for pastoral reasons, but in recent years it has become more of a “each unto their own” situation. Alas, I digress.

Unfortunately as with many traditionally liturgical churches, proper use of the Liturgy has declined and in some cases completely abandoned. I pray for the restoration of reverent and joyfully celebrated Liturgies.

Although in my opinion, you can never be too high church!

But wait, there is more! You think that parish is high church? You’ve obviously never heard of Zion Detroit!
ziondetroit.org/index.php?page=home

**I would suggest reading their service for the Mass. It is joked that the Catholic parish down the street likes to “borrow” their Missal **

I understand that St. Stephens in Milwaukee is no slouch, either.
ststephen-milwaukee.org/english.htm

Jon

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I understand that St. Stephens in Milwaukee is no slouch, either.
ststephen-milwaukee.org/english.htm

Jon

Yeppers. They offer Mass in English, Spanish, and Latin

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

What’s scary is the same could be said of Catholics. There are many Catholics who are ill-catechized and don’t know the Eucharist is the Real Presence. I daresay I must admit that my catechesis was SO POOR in catechism as a kid that, despite going through CCD class and my first communion, it wasn’t until I was 17 or so I heard on TV that Catholics “believe the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ” I did a double-take and said, “huh!” woooah!" Then I went right away to RCIA and tried to catch up on the religion that I didn’t care one bit about for 17 years…I always loved Jesus, but didn’t understand the Church…and I’m 36 and still learning…RCIA was one of the most banal, uninformative, empty, and worthless experiences religiously of my life. I learned fifty times more about Catholicism from my own reading, forums like this, Catholic media, and primary sources plus the catechism…

I agree with you. I have been to many Lutheran Churches where it is very quick and the time is not taken to fully be with Christ in the Sacrament. Now this is just my opinion, but I think if I asked 100 Lutherans if Christ is fully present I think half of them would say it is just a symbol. Now that is a problem with when they are taught about it. But I feel that more time is being speant now to teach them correctly.

 

[skigirl1689]

From my experience as a life-long Lutheran, the ELCA tends to have more high church elements, the LCMS being more middle church, and the WELS low church.

Really??? WELS as a “low” liturgical church? From my experience, WELS is the most traditional synod among Lutheran synods. We follow a liturgy almost identical to the Catholic liturgy and practice closed communion. from my understanding, ELCA have abandoned a lot of traditions

Here’s some info from the WELS Wikepedia page that I thought explained the differences well:

Major doctrine (Material Principle)
Differences from LCMS (Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod)

The main facets of doctrinal difference between WELS and the LCMS include:

* Fellowship — WELS teaches that all forms of Christian fellowship require complete unity in matters of doctrine. The LCMS, meanwhile, teaches that there are different levels of fellowship among Christians, so that altar fellowship (sharing in the Eucharist together), pulpit fellowship (exchange of preaching privileges among ministers of various congregations), and other manifestations of Christian fellowship (such as fellowship in prayer), are distinct. Thus, according to LCMS doctrine, members of different church bodies can engage in greater or lesser degrees of fellowship depending on the extent of their doctrinal disagreement.

* Doctrine of the ministry — The WELS believes that there are many different forms of one, divinely established Ministry. These forms of the Ministry include pastor, Christian day-school teacher, staff-minister and others. The LCMS teaches that only the pastoral office is divinely established, while all other church offices are human institutions.

* Role of women in the church — The LCMS and WELS agree that Scriptures reserve the pastoral office for men. In "This We Believe," published in 1999, WELS states that "women may participate in offices and activities of the public ministry except where that work involves authority over men (1 Timothy 2:11,12). This means that women may not serve as pastors nor participate in assemblies of the church in ways that exercise authority over men (1 Corinthians 11:3; 14:33–35).".[16] WELS does not allow women suffrage in congregational matters that would exercise authority over men. LCMS teaches that women may take on roles of lay authority in the church, such as voting in church elections and serving in "humanly established offices" such as congregation president, reader, or member of church councils, including elected executive roles in the church.

Differences from ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America)

* Scriptural interpretation — WELS confesses that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant and infallible Word of God and follows a Historical-Grammatical approach to interpretation. The meaning of a portion of Scripture is discerned by paying careful attention to grammar, syntax, vocabulary and context. In this regard, the historical setting forms part of the context of Scripture, the text itself indicating how important a part. The ELCA, on the other hand, has been open to Historical-Critical Methods of Biblical interpretation which seek to understand the scriptures with primary reference to historical and social context. Most other specific doctrinal differences between the two churches stem from this overarching disagreement.

* Creationism — WELS teaches that the account of creation given in Genesis 1–3 is a factual, historical account,[17] while the ELCA has not enforced an official position, allowing members to embrace positions ranging from strict creationism to theistic evolution.

* Sexuality — WELS teaches that extramarital sex and homosexual relations are sins, while the ELCA and its predecessor churches have been somewhat open to multiple viewpoints on these matters. The ELCA officially permits the ordination of non-celibate homosexuals and the blessing of homosexual couples. In 2008, 37% of ELCA pastors were found to support same-sex marriage.[18]

* Fellowship — WELS teaches that churches must agree on all doctrines of Scripture before they can enjoy any form of fellowship with each other, while the ELCA teaches that agreement on all aspects of doctrine is not necessarily required as a prerequisite for fellowship. It thus practices fellowship with a handful of other mainline Protestant denominations.

* Role of women in the church — WELS holds that, according to Scripture, women may not serve as clergy nor vote within their congregations where authority is exercised over men (see above), while the ELCA’s three predecessor churches began ordaining women into the ministry in the 1970s.

I hope this explains my confusion to your comment.

 

[Alix1912]

It is rare, but not unheard of, to have high church Lutheran parishes. After all, Lutherans for the longest time carried on (and drew from) the rich depths of the Western liturgical practice. From my experience as a life-long Lutheran, the ELCA tends to have more high church elements, the LCMS being more middle church, and the WELS low church. This if, of course, not counting the much smaller Lutheran bodies; furthermore, this is a mere generalization, as in most cases each parish practices as it sees fit. This is supposed to be for pastoral reasons, but in recent years it has become more of a “each unto their own” situation. Alas, I digress.

Unfortunately as with many traditionally liturgical churches, proper use of the Liturgy has declined and in some cases completely abandoned. I pray for the restoration of reverent and joyfully celebrated Liturgies.

Although in my opinion, you can never be too high church!

But wait, there is more! You think that parish is high church? You’ve obviously never heard of Zion Detroit!
ziondetroit.org/index.php?page=home

I would suggest reading their service for the Mass. It is joked that the Catholic parish down the street likes to “borrow” their Missal

Wow, I would have put the LCMS and WELS as High Churches and the ELCA across the board depending on the congregation.

Every LCMS church I have ever attended uses the traditional litergy and doctrine. Some might have a comterporary worship service, but the only changes are the music not the pattern or intent of the service.

The WELS and LCMS doctrine and teachings are much closer to the rest of the High Litergical Churchs than the ELCA. For crying out loud the ELCA has Gay ministers, that is certainly not in line with a “High Church” Teaching.