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BartBurk
Guest
All of it.
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BartBurk
Guest
I’m not defending their doctrine. I am simply stating that some LDS see things very nearly in a Trinitarian matter.
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BartBurk
Guest
JS never started the religion declaring the Trinity was wrong – he produced scriptures that seemed to support it. If anything one of the major doctrines he disagreed with was infant baptism – it could be said it was one of the doctrines that triggered his religion. Joseph Smith’s religion was more about trying to restore authentic authority than it was about a disagreement on the Godhead. That came later. And Catholics in the past often taught that unbaptized babies go to hell:
romancatholicism.org/jansenism/limbo-pelagianism.htm
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Outspoken
Guest
You’re quoting a sedevacantist website as proof of what the Catholic Church teaches, or taught in the past? Maybe you need to start looking for more official Roman Catholic websites to search about the Catholic Church history and beliefs, please, and thank you.
You sound like you’re still a bit more Mormon than Catholic in some of your thinking about certain doctrines. I realize it must take a long time to transition from one to the other, but trying to make Catholic theology fit Mormonism, in any way, is a little like trying to fit a banana peel over a grapefruit. It just doesn’t work. You might get it to work if you cut the banana peel up into pieces, but what have you got left after doing that?
The only way the LDS would ever be able to claim to be Trinitarian, is if they are also willing to throw out the entire concept of ‘preexistence’, and I don’t see that as having any possibility of happening, anytime soon.
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BartBurk
Guest
I have never said I believe the Mormon doctrines, but I would encourage our LDS friends to take a good look at their scriptures before they toss out the Trinity. The pre-existence does nothing to invalidate the Trinity as long as one sticks with Mormon scriptures which teach there is only one God from everlasting to everlasting. I have known a number of LDS who are hesitant to accept the King Follet ideas. I have no intention of trying to reconcile Catholic and Mormon theology, but the Trinity is one place where it is useful to have a dialogue.You’re quoting a sedevacantist website as proof of what the Catholic Church teaches, or taught in the past? Maybe you need to start looking for more official Roman Catholic websites to search about the Catholic Church history and beliefs, please, and thank you.
You sound like you’re still a bit more Mormon than Catholic in some of your thinking about certain doctrines. I realize it must take a long time to transition from one to the other, but trying to make Catholic theology fit Mormonism, in any way, is a little like trying to fit a banana peel over a grapefruit. It just doesn’t work. You might get it to work if you cut the banana peel up into pieces, but what have you got left after doing that?
The only way the LDS would ever be able to claim to be Trinitarian, is if they are also willing to throw out the entire concept of ‘preexistence’, and I don’t see that as having any possibility of happening, anytime soon.
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lax16
Guest
Hi BartBurk - Again I will use the Ensign article discussing LDS doctrine to show what JS really taught.
Do you know how his revelation on baptism came about? If not, you might be surprised.
The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation By Donald Q. Cannon, Larry E. Dahl, and John W. Welch
Although the Prophet Joseph Smith’s mortal ministry was relatively brief—little more than fifteen years—his accomplishments and influence are eternal. Not only did he restore both the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ, as directed by the Lord, he also introduced, through the revelations he received and through his teachings, most of the major doctrines, practices, and ordinances that characterize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Few things are more crucial to the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21) than the doctrines Joseph Smith taught. He spoke definitively and clearly on each of them, though his knowledge grew progressively. At times it came in leaps and bounds, as when he and Sidney Rigdon saw the Lord and the degrees of glory (see D&C 76); at other times, it came “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little” (2 Ne. 28:30). 1
The doctrines Joseph Smith taught do several things. They clarify scripture; they restore knowledge that had been revealed ages ago but had become lost or corrupted; they provide new knowledge; and they organize his many insights into a broad vision of eternity.
The effects of time and familiarity lead us to forget how “directly contrary and opposed to” prevailing notions some of the revelations were. Joseph Smith, however, perceived their profound import. He said, “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.” 3 (See Dan. 2:44–45.)
A sampling of six of Joseph’s teachings will illustrate these points. This article will discuss the first three—the nature of God and the Godhead, man’s nature and his premortal existence, and the Creation. A follow-up article will discuss the next three—the priesthood of God, scripture, and temples and their ordinances. The doctrines in each of these important areas will be briefly summarized, and the development of these doctrines in the life and words of Joseph Smith will be explained and compared with the ideas and attitudes of his day. In some cases, the insights Joseph received were highly original for his time; in other cases, he reshaped or validated common ideas. In instances in which we know something about these teachings in previous dispensations, we find significant similarities. It is evident that the Prophet’s life was spent in learning more about these doctrines. They did not issue fully explained on the day of the First Vision—or on any other single occasion.
The Personal Nature of God and the Godhead
Though most people who believe the Bible accept the idea of a Godhead composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith revealed an understanding of the Godhead that differed from the views found in the creeds of his day. The main Christian sects of the nineteenth century taught of “one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons: nor dividing the Substance” and of “one only living and true God, … a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible.” 4 Although other churches and individuals held that the Father and the Son are separate entities, 5 Joseph Smith uniquely taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct personages, with the Father and the Son having bodies of “flesh and bones as tangible as man’s,” and with the Holy Ghost being a “personage of Spirit.” (D&C 130:22.) 6
God the Father. The truths about God that Joseph Smith restored are of paramount importance. In 1844, he taught that “it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another.” 7 Ten years earlier, the Lectures on Faith, which Joseph Smith directed and approved, taught that to acquire faith unto salvation one needs a correct idea of God’s character, perfections, and attributes, and that one needs to know that the course of life one is pursuing is according to God’s will. 8 He also added, “If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves.” 9
The Prophet explained that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens”; that “he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did”; and that he “worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling.” 10 Through the Prophet, we learn that we “are begotten sons and daughters unto God” and that Christ is the Firstborn. (D&C 76:24; see D&C 93:21–22; Heb. 12:7–9.) As God’s children, we may become gods ourselves through Christ’s atonement and the plan of salvation, being joint heirs of Christ of “all that [the] Father hath.” (D&C 84:38; see also Rom. 8:17; D&C 76:58–60; D&C 132:19–21.) Along with these concepts is the concept of divine parents, including an exalted Mother who stands beside God the Father. 11
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lax16
Guest
Hi BartBurk - Again I will use the Ensign article discussing LDS doctrine to show what JS really taught.
The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation By Donald Q. Cannon, Larry E. Dahl, and John W. Welch
Although the Prophet Joseph Smith’s mortal ministry was relatively brief—little more than fifteen years—his accomplishments and influence are eternal. Not only did he restore both the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ, as directed by the Lord, he also introduced, through the revelations he received and through his teachings, most of the major doctrines, practices, and ordinances that characterize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Few things are more crucial to the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21) than the doctrines Joseph Smith taught. He spoke definitively and clearly on each of them, though his knowledge grew progressively. At times it came in leaps and bounds, as when he and Sidney Rigdon saw the Lord and the degrees of glory (see D&C 76); at other times, it came “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little” (2 Ne. 28:30). 1
The doctrines Joseph Smith taught do several things. They clarify scripture; they restore knowledge that had been revealed ages ago but had become lost or corrupted; they provide new knowledge; and they organize his many insights into a broad vision of eternity.
The effects of time and familiarity lead us to forget how “directly contrary and opposed to” prevailing notions some of the revelations were. Joseph Smith, however, perceived their profound import. He said, “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.” 3 (See Dan. 2:44–45.)
A sampling of six of Joseph’s teachings will illustrate these points. This article will discuss the first three—the nature of God and the Godhead, man’s nature and his premortal existence, and the Creation. A follow-up article will discuss the next three—the priesthood of God, scripture, and temples and their ordinances. The doctrines in each of these important areas will be briefly summarized, and the development of these doctrines in the life and words of Joseph Smith will be explained and compared with the ideas and attitudes of his day. In some cases, the insights Joseph received were highly original for his time; in other cases, he reshaped or validated common ideas. In instances in which we know something about these teachings in previous dispensations, we find significant similarities. It is evident that the Prophet’s life was spent in learning more about these doctrines. They did not issue fully explained on the day of the First Vision—or on any other single occasion.
The Personal Nature of God and the Godhead
Though most people who believe the Bible accept the idea of a Godhead composed of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith revealed an understanding of the Godhead that differed from the views found in the creeds of his day. The main Christian sects of the nineteenth century taught of “one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons: nor dividing the Substance” and of “one only living and true God, … a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible.” 4 Although other churches and individuals held that the Father and the Son are separate entities, 5 Joseph Smith uniquely taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct personages, with the Father and the Son having bodies of “flesh and bones as tangible as man’s,” and with the Holy Ghost being a “personage of Spirit.” (D&C 130:22.) 6
God the Father. The truths about God that Joseph Smith restored are of paramount importance. In 1844, he taught that “it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another.” 7 Ten years earlier, the Lectures on Faith, which Joseph Smith directed and approved, taught that to acquire faith unto salvation one needs a correct idea of God’s character, perfections, and attributes, and that one needs to know that the course of life one is pursuing is according to God’s will. 8 He also added, “If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves.” 9
The Prophet explained that “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens”; that “he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did”; and that he “worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling.” 10 Through the Prophet, we learn that we “are begotten sons and daughters unto God” and that Christ is the Firstborn. (D&C 76:24; see D&C 93:21–22; Heb. 12:7–9.) As God’s children, we may become gods ourselves through Christ’s atonement and the plan of salvation, being joint heirs of Christ of “all that [the] Father hath.” (D&C 84:38; see also Rom. 8:17; D&C 76:58–60; D&C 132:19–21.) Along with these concepts is the concept of divine parents, including an exalted Mother who stands beside God the Father. 11
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Limbo is still a valid conclusion based on what God has Revealed. What the document “The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die Without Being Baptised”, is, just as the title says. Hope, not in the manner of so many who use the word hope, used so often as synonymous with “wishing”, but the Hope that Christians have, the Truth, of Salvation and Christ Risen. Hope having a name: Jesus Christ.
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BartBurk
Guest
That’s a 22 year old article. Anything more recent? Those things were regularly taught back then – my guess is they aren’t taught as much anymore though I’m sure you can find something. That’s why it is important for us to show the LDS the history of the King Follet sermon and hold them to their scriptures. I believe that is the wave of the future.
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PaulDupre
Guest
Actually it is Ezekiel 37, so we both mis-spoke. I was also thinking of the LDS proof-text for pre-existence found in Jeremiah 1:4 and mis-spoke. Let’s not try to make one an offender for a word, shall we?It definitely would be out of context if he pulled Ezekiel 33 out of the book of Jeremiah, Paul.
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lax16
Guest
Are you trying to tell me that doctrine goes out of date?
So, the Mormons just keep re-working it until it matches up to what is popular consensus?
What is not taught anymore - doctrine??? Will the Ensign run a new story on doctrine explaining that the things JS taught are no longer “the restoration of the gospel” because there is now a new and improved version?
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
When your church was only 170 years old, how much of your Catechism was hammered out?Are you trying to tell me that doctrine goes out of date?
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Cowboy_Pete
Guest
When did God reveal Limbo?
Have any Catholic artists painted it? I’m curious what it looks like. I’m picturing crying babies floating in space.
Doesn’t sound much like something Jesus would do, does it?
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PaulDupre
Guest
I always pictured limbo as you would picture the Telestial Kingdom - a place so beautiful that Brigham Young said that if we were to glimpse it, we would all commit suicide to get there. And yet it is outside the presence of the Father and the Son.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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lax16
Guest
Are you kidding???!!!
Christians were dying for their faith - Early Church Fathers were fighting heresies - the Trinity was established as truth (which is why it was defended ) - Polycarp was martyred in 156 - read the history of the early Church.
Please read the Catechism of the Catholic Church - dates and scripture are referenced with each teaching.
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Outspoken
Guest
I don’t think that would ever happen. My guess is that Mormons only speed-read through it, looking for buzzwords and phrases that they can claim is the same belief about some doctrine of theirs that we refute. If they actually took time to really read it in depth, they might have to confess it in their next temple recommend meeting with the bishop.
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Cowboy_Pete
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You assume that we’re as obsessed with you as you are with us.I don’t think that would ever happen. My guess is that Mormons only speed-read through it, looking for buzzwords and phrases that they can claim is the same belief about some doctrine of theirs that we refute. If they actually took time to really read it in depth, they might have to confess it in their next temple recommend meeting with the bishop.
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BartBurk
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I looked at the article more closely. It never says that God the Father had a Father. It says that God obtained a body like us and lived on a world like us. Nobody is arguing against the notion that LDS believe that God the Father has a body. And again I would have to state that most LDS don’t know enough about the doctrine of the Trinity to be able to discuss it intelligently.Are you trying to tell me that doctrine goes out of date?
So, the Mormons just keep re-working it until it matches up to what is popular consensus?
What is not taught anymore - doctrine??? Will the Ensign run a new story on doctrine explaining that the things JS taught are no longer “the restoration of the gospel” because there is now a new and improved version?
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mwok
Guest
So, what do they mean by God obtaining a body like us? How did He obtain His body?
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BartBurk
Guest
I don’t think they know – it’s all speculation. Some people say that God had a Father and Mother. Others won’t go that far. I don’t believe there is an official teaching on it.
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