LDS and Abortion

[FormerXCatholic]

Any religion can be tested by this simple litmus test on abortion.

The Catholic Church, the church Jesus started on the Rock of St. Peter, the one Jesus said the gates of hell “would not prevail against”, teaches the truth on abortion. NO EXCEPTIONS. Why? Because thou shalt not kill, ever, period.

But this what the Mormons say on their website Mormon.org. I challenge you to find this on Catholic.org/.com

In 1973, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released the following statement regarding abortion, which is still applicable today:

“The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.”

Why not save them both Mormons? Tell us. Why not at least try to save the baby? At Catholic priest would NEVER recommend an abortion, but apparently elders do. What a sham.

Look for the word except when performing your litmus test. Because what you do to the least of us (unborn children conceived in rape) you do to Christ.

 

[Denois]

I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that the Catholic Church does approve abortion if the mother is in fatal danger, I may be wrong though.

I totally agree with you. A rape victim could put the baby up for adoption if it causes emotional trauma. Killing a life that could not help how it came to be is wrong.

Also, if you look up ‘things mormon missionaries do not tell you’ - you’ll find solid prof that Mormonism is a sham and a lie.

Peace

 

[robwar]

Any religion can be tested by this simple litmus test on abortion.

The Catholic Church, the church Jesus started on the Rock of St. Peter, the one Jesus said the gates of hell “would not prevail against”, teaches the truth on abortion. NO EXCEPTIONS. Why? Because thou shalt not kill, ever, period.

But this what the Mormons say on their website Mormon.org. I challenge you to find this on Catholic.org/.com

In 1973, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released the following statement regarding abortion, which is still applicable today:

“The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.”

Why not save them both Mormons? Tell us. Why not at least try to save the baby? At Catholic priest would NEVER recommend an abortion, but apparently elders do. What a sham.

Look for the word except when performing your litmus test. Because what you do to the least of us (unborn children conceived in rape) you do to Christ.

In all honestly, there are much stronger “proofs” to use about Mormonism than this anti-abortion one. Sad to say that there are many Protestant groups that have the same stance. If you are concern about Mormonism, you should look at Joseph Smith, his “visions” and what they teach about Jesus, God and a bunch of other issues. This in my mind is a pretty weak arguement.

 

[Robyn_p]

I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that the Catholic Church does approve abortion if the mother is in fatal danger, I may be wrong though.

The Church forbids all abortion - all willful, direct killing of an innocent person - no matter the circumstances.

What you may be thinking of is the principle of double effect, but that is not at all saying abortion is permissible.

Double effect is a moral principle that says an objectively good action can be performed even if that good action involves an UNINTENDED bad effect. For example, if a pregnant woman’s life is in danger from cancer, we can treat the illness, even though that may cause the death of the child. But that effect is not willed by us. And neither are we directly murdering the baby.

If there is some way that both the mother and baby can be saved, then we ought to seek out that method and do everything we can to save both. But if there is no possible way to save both, we can still treat the malady, even if that means the baby can’t survive the treatment.

This isn’t the same as abortion, which directly wills and causes the death of the child in the womb. That is always and in every circumstance immoral and prohibited by the Church.

 

[lynnanine]

The Church forbids all abortion - all willful, direct killing of an innocent person - no matter the circumstances.

What you may be thinking of is the principle of double effect, but that is not at all saying abortion is permissible.

Double effect is a moral principle that says an objectively good action can be performed even if that good action involves an UNINTENDED bad effect. For example, if a pregnant woman’s life is in danger from cancer, we can treat the illness, even though that may cause the death of the child. But that effect is not willed by us. And neither are we directly murdering the baby.

If there is some way that both the mother and baby can be saved, then we ought to seek out that method and do everything we can to save both. But if there is no possible way to save both, we can still treat the malady, even if that means the baby can’t survive the treatment.

This isn’t the same as abortion, which directly wills and causes the death of the child in the womb. That is always and in every circumstance immoral and prohibited by the Church.

I’ll second this. I was going to explain it and then found out someone already had.

 

[PaulDupre1]

I don’t think the bible says “thou shalt not kill, ever, period.”
After all, God himself tells people in the bible to kill other groups of people.
("Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. " (1 Samuel 15:3)
And I think many Catholics here on this forum feel okay with the idea of owning a gun and shooting an intruder in self-defence…or killing another soldier in war…

.

You are correct, DaddyGirl.

The Hebrew word “ratsach” used in Exodus 20:13 means “murder”.

So the verse would be rendered literally as “Thou shalt do no murder”.

Murder is defined as “the willful killing of an innocent person without just cause”.

Killing an aggressor in defense of self or others is not murder.
Killing enemy combatants in the context of a just war is not murder.
The state executing a convicted murderer is not murder.
Killing someone by accident (unwillingly) is not murder.

Abortion (the willful killing of an unborn human baby) is murder.

The LDS are dead wrong on this one, as they are with so many things.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[TOmNossor]

FormerXCatholic:
At Catholic priest would NEVER recommend an abortion, but apparently elders do. What a sham.
I personally would vote and legislate as Catholic would in all but the most unusual of circumstances (see the last paragraph for that circumstance).
I have in the past defended my church’s view on this by questioning when “ensoulment” occurs and there is Catholic precedent for this, but I thought I would only mention it.
I will choose to leave alone the descriptions of how immoral my church is for its teachings on abortion.
I will also only mention that I have encountered a handful of studies that point to the fact that LDS have fewer abortions than Catholics and fewer births to unwed mothers. This aligns with my perception that to be a LDS is to follow LDS teachings to a greater extent than to be a Catholic is to follow Catholic teachings. An old and not WORTHLESS axiom is “good advice not followed is not really good advice.” And I will also offer and anecdotal comment from a question I asked to a volunteer at LDS social services. They do know of incidents were rape victims gave birth and knew of no incidents were rape victims had abortions. So I know of no LDS church leaders who have ever recommended an abortion.

I do want to tell you that you are wrong in that a Catholic Priest (and more correctly a Catholic Bioethicist) does in fact recommend abortion in some instances. It is when the life of the mother is in danger and the fetus will die anyway. In this situation an abortion is the proper course of action. The Catholic Bioethics dictate an unusual procedure that I would reject, but it does (through double-effect) kill the baby and save the mother.

Charity, TOm

 

[dshix]

I’ll second this. I was going to explain it and then found out someone already had.

Thirded. He took the words out of my mouth.

 

[TOmNossor]

The Church forbids all abortion - all willful, direct killing of an innocent person - no matter the circumstances.

What you may be thinking of is the principle of double effect, but that is not at all saying abortion is permissible.

Double effect is a moral principle that says an objectively good action can be performed even if that good action involves an UNINTENDED bad effect. For example, if a pregnant woman’s life is in danger from cancer, we can treat the illness, even though that may cause the death of the child. But that effect is not willed by us. And neither are we directly murdering the baby.

If there is some way that both the mother and baby can be saved, then we ought to seek out that method and do everything we can to save both. But if there is no possible way to save both, we can still treat the malady, even if that means the baby can’t survive the treatment.

This isn’t the same as abortion, which directly wills and causes the death of the child in the womb. That is always and in every circumstance immoral and prohibited by the Church.
I agree with the above statement, but to be clear, the baby ALWAYS dies. To call it a non-abortion when a 1-8 week old (maybe longer) fetus is removed from the woman’s body by cutting out a section of the fallopian tube is semantics IMO.
This is the only place where my personal position differs from the Catholic position. I would advocate that a woman with an ectopic pregnancy act directly upon the fetus rather than undergo surgery to preserve “double effect.” This is more dangerous for the mother and the baby ALWAYS dies.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

You are correct, DaddyGirl.

The Hebrew word “ratsach” used in Exodus 20:13 means “murder”.

So the verse would be rendered literally as “Thou shalt do no murder”.

Murder is defined as “the willful killing of an innocent person without just cause”.

Killing an aggressor in defense of self or others is not murder.
Killing enemy combatants in the context of a just war is not murder.
The state executing a convicted murderer is not murder.
Killing someone by accident (unwillingly) is not murder.

Abortion (the willful killing of an unborn human baby) is murder.

The LDS are dead wrong on this one, as they are with so many things.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
I MAY have not gotten this posted, I truly cannot remember. I will remember this time (and I am not trying to bypass rules by reposting, I just am not sure).

Paul, you may see murder and abortion as equivalent (like you intimate in the above post), but this was not always the Catholic view.
Catholic history once distinguished between murder and abortion, but unlike what some unusual “Catholic” folks seem to apply, abortion to my knowledge was never acceptable.
Aquinas and others have also spoken of “Fetus animus” and “Fetus inanimus.” This is part of where I get the distinction on “ensoulment.”
Charity, TOm

 

[Matthew_Light]

I am not a Mormon, and I do not agree with many of their teachings. I am also aware of some of the past sins of members and leaders of their faith.

But I see a church whose members eschew substance abuse, that emphasizes the importance of family, that teaches the virtues, that enjoins sexual morality and which worships God and Christ as they understand Them.

I see many admirable qualities in Mormons.

I do not believe that God throws away people, or even a church, because some of their beliefs are not correct (in my view!)

I would not call someone’s deeply held faith in God through their religion “illegitimate”. Many faithful Mormons have done acts of love and kindness and grace and service to God.

While Mormons, Jews, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Muslims, Baha’is, Buddhists, Hindus and other religions argue with one another about who is right and who is going to burn in hell, we turn more and more people away from the infinite love and mercy of God and Christ.

 

[NeuroTypical]

The Catholic Church, the church Jesus started on the Rock of St. Peter, the one Jesus said the gates of hell “would not prevail against”, teaches the truth on abortion. NO EXCEPTIONS. Why? Because thou shalt not kill, ever, period.

Just an aside, but I’ve participated in enough multipagelong handgun threads over on CAF’s World News forum, to know that there are no shortage of Catholics who would call foul over your main point.

 

[TexanKnight]

I MAY have not gotten this posted, I truly cannot remember. I will remember this time (and I am not trying to bypass rules by reposting, I just am not sure).

Paul, you may see murder and abortion as equivalent (like you intimate in the above post), but this was not always the Catholic view.
Catholic history once distinguished between murder and abortion, but unlike what some unusual “Catholic” folks seem to apply, abortion to my knowledge was never acceptable.
Aquinas and others have also spoken of “Fetus animus” and “Fetus inanimus.” This is part of where I get the distinction on “ensoulment.”
Charity, TOm

hard for me to take seriously any conversations on death coming from a guy whose Church teaches blood oaths and the killing of each other in temple ceremonies…or at least they used to…

 

[TexanKnight]

Just an aside, but I’ve participated in enough multipagelong handgun threads over on CAF’s World News forum, to know that there are no shortage of Catholics who would call foul over your main point.

another blood oath guy who is gonna teach us about killing

I mean no disrespect, but blood oaths are horrible…even showing how the killing will be done

 

[PaulDupre1]

hard for me to take seriously any conversations on death coming from a guy whose Church teaches blood oaths and the killing of each other in temple ceremonies…or at least they used to…

Or whose Holy Ghost would approve of intentionally killing an innocent baby.

 

[iepuras]

I have heard Mormons justify abortion in the case of rape or incest because the woman didn’t choose to have sex so she shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences. Even when I was LDS, that reasoning bothered me. I couldn’t justify it in my mind because the baby is completely innocent! Why should an innocent person be killed because someone committed the terrible sin of rape? Besides, a woman who has been raped suffers terribly whether she becomes pregnant or not. Innocent people often suffer because of the bad behavior of others. That doesn’t justify killing anyone.

 

[TexanKnight]

I have heard Mormons justify abortion in the case of rape or incest because the woman didn’t choose to have sex so she shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences. Even when I was LDS, that reasoning bothered me. I couldn’t justify it in my mind because the baby is completely innocent! Why should an innocent person be killed because someone committed the terrible sin of rape? Besides, a woman who has been raped suffers terribly whether she becomes pregnant or not. Innocent people often suffer because of the bad behavior of others. That doesn’t justify killing anyone.

what makes it even worse, is that they believe in a preexistence where babies choose to whom to be born. I guess a lot of Mormons choose to be aborted…

 

[CarolNoel]

I will also only mention that I have encountered a handful of studies that point to the fact that LDS have fewer abortions than Catholics and fewer births to unwed mothers.

A handful of studies!! How many is that…One, two, three! Who did them? I lived and worked in Utah for six years. Worked in the OB-GYN area. The majority of females coming in wanting a TAB, or already had one or two TAB’s were LDS. They were all ages. How do I know they were LDS. They would tell me. Didn’t have to ask. They were hoping no one would find out about it. (No, abortions were not done where I worked.)

Just wanted to give my meager 2 cents worth.

 

[Stephen168]

I personally would vote and legislate as Catholic would in all but the most unusual of circumstances (see the last paragraph for that circumstance).

Again, your opinion is not the teaching of the Mormon Church.

I will choose to leave alone the descriptions of how immoral my church is for its teachings on abortion.

Because you can not defend the Mormon Law of “We don’t like your Dad,” you have to resort to attacking people who call themselves Catholic. That does not remove the teaching of the Mormon Church.
Committing homicide by accident or self defense is not murder, but the Mormon Church adds the “We don’t like your Dad justification; Your Dad is a rapist, you deserve to die.

I do want to tell you that you are wrong in that a Catholic Priest (and more correctly a Catholic Bioethicist) does in fact recommend abortion in some instances. It is when the life of the mother is in danger and the fetus will die anyway. In this situation an abortion is the proper course of action. The Catholic Bioethics dictate an unusual procedure that I would reject, but it does (through double-effect) kill the baby and save the mother.

You are wrong about Catholic teaching, again

I agree with the above statement, but to be clear, the baby ALWAYS dies. To call it a non-abortion when a 1-8 week old (maybe longer) fetus is removed from the woman’s body by cutting out a section of the fallopian tube is semantics IMO.

It seems you think the deference between self defense and murder is just semantics. You would be wrong again about Catholic teaching.

This is the only place where my personal position differs from the Catholic position. I would advocate that a woman with an ectopic pregnancy act directly upon the fetus rather than undergo surgery to preserve “double effect.” This is more dangerous for the mother and the baby ALWAYS dies.

Again, your opinion is not the teaching of the Mormon Church. The “we don’t like your Dad” rule is.

Paul, you may see murder and abortion as equivalent (like you intimate in the above post), but this was not always the Catholic view.
Catholic history once distinguished between murder and abortion, but unlike what some unusual “Catholic” folks seem to apply, abortion to my knowledge was never acceptable.
Aquinas and others have also spoken of “Fetus animus” and “Fetus inanimus.” This is part of where I get the distinction on “ensoulment.”

so “ensoulment” is the philosophical justification for the “we don’t like you dad” rule?

 

[TOmNossor]

I will also only mention that I have encountered a handful of studies that point to the fact that LDS have fewer abortions than Catholics and fewer births to unwed mothers.

A handful of studies!! How many is that…One, two, three! Who did them? I lived and worked in Utah for six years. Worked in the OB-GYN area. The majority of females coming in wanting a TAB, or already had one or two TAB’s were LDS. They were all ages. How do I know they were LDS. They would tell me. Didn’t have to ask. They were hoping no one would find out about it. (No, abortions were not done where I worked.)

Just wanted to give my meager 2 cents worth.
Because the majority of the abortions performed in a community of majority LDS in your PERSONAL experience is a very small piece of data.
I can say that 100% of the rape cases I have dialogued about in the LDS community have resulted in live birth (this coming from converstation with LDS social service person not from my personal knowledge of rape victoms which is 0), but I hardly think that means this 100% holds (though I wish it would).
Adherents.com explains that Utah and Idaho have the lowest abortion rate in the nation by not a small margin.
Guttmacher’s data has been widely published showing that Catholic women have abortions at a significantly higher rate than Protestant women. I found no breakdown for LDS so all I have is the Adherents data.

It seems you think the deference between self defense and murder is just semantics. You would be wrong again about Catholic teaching.

The term “self-defense” is interesting but appropriate. It is absolutely true that ectopic pregnancy termination is call abortion by virtually every source I have ever explored, as such I do not believe calling it abortion is inappropriate.
That being said, the “self-defense” argument is precisely how I defend my churches position. It BTW has nothing to do with who the father is, but everything to do with the mother.
I hope my current experience with LDS abortion and rape preceded abortion in the CoJCoLDS continues (never happens even though I have spoken with folks who would know of such things as a product of their work). [that should not imply that I believe abortion never happens though I think it possible that no rape induced church leader approved abortions have occured for years].
Here is one link. Contained in the link is another link. If you will explain how ensoulment matters and “self-defense” is appropriate in my view (in words that I would embrace), I will engage briefly on your critique of this. If not, I will leave you to the simple construct, “The CoJCoLDS is not true due to its stand on abortion.” I do not believe folks listen and you have claimed you ignore me just recently so …
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3295252&postcount=4

Charity, TOm